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Just now, davide256 said:

There's a lot to be said for RAAT vs UPNP/DLNA. It does what its supposed to do, which is eliminate the nuisance network tweaking that UPNP/DLNA requires. Roon without RAAT supporting endpoint doesn't sound any better than UPNP/DLNA

Granted but does that distinction  apply to direct USB/S/PDIF connections or to AES67-type connections?


Kal Rubinson

Music in the Round

Senior Contributing Editor, Stereophile

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3 hours ago, Kal Rubinson said:

Granted but does that distinction  apply to direct USB/S/PDIF connections or to AES67-type connections?

Perhaps you should rephrase the question? There's no relationship between the Ethernet protocols that feed a renderer and the connector options from a renderer to

a DAC. If the endpoint does a better job of preserving data integrity when processing Ethernet data, that benefit would be passed to all connector options within their engineering

limitations.


Regards,

Dave

 

Audio system

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3 hours ago, davide256 said:

Perhaps you should rephrase the question? There's no relationship between the Ethernet protocols that feed a renderer and the connector options from a renderer to a DAC.

I was thinking about the NADAC DAC which, via a Ravenna ASIO driver, communicates with a server via Ethernet or of USB-connected DACs.


Kal Rubinson

Music in the Round

Senior Contributing Editor, Stereophile

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1 hour ago, Dr Tone said:

 

Smaller libraries sure.

 

I have over 12,000 albums in Roon with different masters of quite a few albums on top of that.  The larger the library the richer the metadata and relationships Roon starts building.  I love the album stacking, putting my favorite master on top.

 

Of course the disease of not being able to stop buying dirt cheap CDs had gotten out of control.  It’s under control now but I have accumulated some crap over the years.  Roon has really helped me get a once unruley collection under control and enjoyable to browse.

Wow wow wow!!! What is this album stackin you talking about Willis?

 

i am a junkie for multiple versions of albums. I’ll look into this album stackin. 


mini+Roon > dCS Rossini DAC + Rossini Master Clock >

Audio Note Kondo Ongaku > Avantgarde Duo Mezzo G2

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15 hours ago, Cebolla said:

Is that because you are using RAAT with synchronised multiple endpoint devices? Otherwise, why are you saying RAAT is a far better protocol than standard UPnP/DLNA? It certainly can't be because of the RAAT endpoint vs UPnP renderer hardware support count!

 

I don't know which devices you've used on DLNA, I've tried two, a BD Player and Tuner. The object was to find audio tracks on a DLNA server and play them. Both failed, either the file couldn't be read, perhaps a 96/24 or it took that bloody long to find the file in the first place. When Roon recognises a network end point, selection of that zone is two mouse clicks, and the rest to search and play. DSD, 192, 96 all play from the word go.

 

15 hours ago, Cebolla said:

Incidentally, you can get Roon to play to any standard UPnP/DLNA renderer, despite Roon's (strange) lack of official support for the UPnP streaming protocol, by using the UPnPBridge/squeeze2upnp Logitech Media Server plugin to act as the go between. This is because Roon also supports the Slim/Squeezebox streaming protocol (in addition to RAAT,  HQPlayer & AirPlay). The UPnPBridge just needs to be configured as a standalone application (ie, no LMS required) and can then be run on any networked machine, including the one running Roon.

http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?103728-Announce-UPnPBridge-integrate-UPnP-DLNA-players-with-LMS-(squeeze2upnp)

 

You sure know know how to complicate matters. Way over my head and care value, sorry.

 

15 hours ago, Cebolla said:

 

 

Windows JRiver users can use TIDAL's Desktop app and output the audio bit perfectly to JRiver's playback engine, via its WDM Driver. So this would include 'first unfold'/MQA core audio decoded from MQA Masters tracks. However, when using the JRiver WDM Driver as its input, the JRiver playback engine cannot be used for streaming over the network to UPnP/DLNA renderers and also there's no equivalent JRiver audio input driver for OS X and Linux JRiver users.

 

That would possibly work for Spotify. I thought MQA discussion was dead now?

 

 


AS Profile Equipment List        Say NO to MQA

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8 hours ago, One and a half said:
23 hours ago, Cebolla said:

Is that because you are using RAAT with synchronised multiple endpoint devices? Otherwise, why are you saying RAAT is a far better protocol than standard UPnP/DLNA? It certainly can't be because of the RAAT endpoint vs UPnP renderer hardware support count!

 

I don't know which devices you've used on DLNA, I've tried two, a BD Player and Tuner. The object was to find audio tracks on a DLNA server and play them. Both failed, either the file couldn't be read, perhaps a 96/24 or it took that bloody long to find the file in the first place. When Roon recognises a network end point, selection of that zone is two mouse clicks, and the rest to search and play. DSD, 192, 96 all play from the word go.

 

Ok, so you were not actually comparing the RAAT vs UPnP/DLNA as protocols and were only having a moan at some supposed DLNA compliant devices, a BD Player & a 'Tuner' (a TV set top box/PVR, perhaps?), that you 'tested' in the past. So not really the specialised audio dedicated devices, ie, the UPnP/DLNA supporting network audio file renderers of the type most would recognise on these forums, that you could fairly compare with Roon endpoint devices.

 

From your description of the 'failures' , it appears the devices you tested were DLNA Digital Media Players (DMPs), as opposed to DLNA Digital Media Renderers (DMRs), which means you could not have controlled them from JRiver anyway - so completely off topic!


We are far more united and have far more in common with each other than things that divide us.

-- Jo Cox

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8 minutes ago, Cebolla said:

From your description of the 'failures' , it appears the devices you tested were DLNA Digital Media Players (DMPs), as opposed to DLNA Digital Media Renderers (DMRs), which means you could not have controlled them from JRiver anyway - so completely off topic!

 

The tested Onkyo Tuner Model T-4070 can be controlled from Jriver, also from Roon, so in essence a renderer, and still on topic, as the discussion is Jriver versus Roon, not renderers alone.  


AS Profile Equipment List        Say NO to MQA

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On 3/27/2018 at 8:41 AM, davide256 said:

There's a lot to be said for RAAT vs UPNP/DLNA. It does what its supposed to do, which is eliminate the nuisance network tweaking that UPNP/DLNA requires. Roon without RAAT supporting endpoint doesn't sound any better than UPNP/DLNA

I do not agree with this at all, at least with Sonore Rendu streaming devices.  I find DLNA streaming to require zero tweaking, and find playback via minimserver/bubble or Audirvana + to work perfectly, with excellent sound quality (better than last time I tried ROON, but it has been awhile and I hear ROON has improved since then).

I see no advantage with RAAT personally, at least with my hardware.

One thing I do see as an advantage with ROON is that it can up convert DSD to higher rates, which currently Audirvana does not do: I would like to be able to convert DSD 64 and 128 to DSD 256, for example.  I wish both ROON and Audirvana would add a DSD compatible volume control, right now that is only available in HQPlayer... 


ROON: DSD 256-Signature Rendu optical--Buffalo PRO (ESS 9038) or DSC-2--Ncore 400 Stereo-Focus Audio FS888-JL E-112 sub-Nordost Tyr USB, Cardas Clear AC, XLR, & speaker cables-Synergistic Blue & Hi Fi Tuning Supreme Cu Fuses, Dark Matter system clarifiers.    Design/Build Consultant with Sonore

 

                                                                                                  SONORE computer audio

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1 hour ago, barrows said:

I wish both ROON and Audirvana would add a DSD compatible volume control, right now that is only available in HQPlayer... 

https://community.roonlabs.com/t/64-bit-floating-point-volume-control-with-dsd/28810/13

they aren't big fans of the HQP solution


Main listening (small home office):

Surge protector +_iFi  AC iPurifiers >Isol-8 Mini sub Axis Power Conditioning+Isolation>CAPS IV Pipeline Server + Sonore 12V PS>Kii Control>Kii Three >GIK Room Treatments.
 

Secondary Listening: CAPS Pipeline>IFi iOne DAC>Schiit Freya>Kii Three . Also an SBT and a RB Pi 3B+ running piCorePlayer as an SBT emulator. 

All absolute statements about audio are false :)

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26 minutes ago, firedog said:

It seems that ROON RAAT runs with five seconds of delay, wow.  It has been awhile since I used ROON, but that seems unnecessary to me.  Certainly DLNA does not do this, I experience no "problems", indeed if one's network is so bad as to require that much buffering perhaps the network issues should be solved (although i do understand that ROON is not really aimed at audiophiles, and this is just another example of that).  Does it really take five seconds for playback to start in ROON after one pushes "play"?

Anyway, a DSD capable volume control is a good feature, and very desirable for users who want to oversample everything to DSD and run a simple DSD DAC like DSC-1 & 2, Playback Designs Merlot, Holo DAC Spring and Cyan, T+A, etc...  Not everyone wants to deal with HQPlayer.

Hopefully Damien will implement a DSD volume control in Audirvana Plus soon, as it has no such long buffer delay as RAAT.  (I would not want it running in the endpoint as this would require considerably more processing in the endpoint, where it should not be).


ROON: DSD 256-Signature Rendu optical--Buffalo PRO (ESS 9038) or DSC-2--Ncore 400 Stereo-Focus Audio FS888-JL E-112 sub-Nordost Tyr USB, Cardas Clear AC, XLR, & speaker cables-Synergistic Blue & Hi Fi Tuning Supreme Cu Fuses, Dark Matter system clarifiers.    Design/Build Consultant with Sonore

 

                                                                                                  SONORE computer audio

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On 3/28/2018 at 11:58 AM, One and a half said:

 

The tested Onkyo Tuner Model T-4070 can be controlled from Jriver, also from Roon, so in essence a renderer, and still on topic, as the discussion is Jriver versus Roon, not renderers alone.  

Fair enough - though it's a relatively old 1st gen UPnP/DLNA renderer ~2010, so basics like gapless playback support also likely to be lacking.


We are far more united and have far more in common with each other than things that divide us.

-- Jo Cox

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1 hour ago, ssh said:

5900 albums on my hard drive, hooked up to ST-5, to an UltraRendu to a Yggy. Hit "shuffle play" and no delay for me. No five second delay here.

 

Weird... I wonder why they use that as a reason to not do the volume control then.  Shenanigans I guess...


ROON: DSD 256-Signature Rendu optical--Buffalo PRO (ESS 9038) or DSC-2--Ncore 400 Stereo-Focus Audio FS888-JL E-112 sub-Nordost Tyr USB, Cardas Clear AC, XLR, & speaker cables-Synergistic Blue & Hi Fi Tuning Supreme Cu Fuses, Dark Matter system clarifiers.    Design/Build Consultant with Sonore

 

                                                                                                  SONORE computer audio

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17 minutes ago, barrows said:

Weird... I wonder why they use that as a reason to not do the volume control then.  Shenanigans I guess...

 

No shenanigans. Just intelligent network design.

 

They have a 5 second buffer at the endpoint that builds up from zero after you hit play. So, there is no buffer when you first hit play but there is soon thereafter unless your interrupt the playlist and choose another album or track.

 

If they adjust volume at the Core, there will be a 5 second delay.

 

Why is this intelligent network design? Because having a 5 second buffer will allow the music to play real time without interruption in all but the most trying network conditions. Not everyone runs a wired network. WiFi networks are not always as reliable as one would like. I have seen it in my own home which is why it is now wired for Gig-E. Heck even the server may have a hiccup that having the 5 second buffer means you never hear it.

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Well I do not think there is any such buffer in my set up (DLNA with A+) and never have any network hiccups.  Fixing a network problem this way seems back asswords to me.  Of course I would never use WIFI for music distribution as it results in more errors and re-sends (and resultant drop in SQ), if the network is even capable enough to do WIFI with DSD 256, etc.  This is why we do not offer WIFI at all with Sonore products, we are after the best sound quality and stable performance.

 

Sounds like less intelligent design for dummies to use to me, especially if it makes implementing a good DSD volume control impossible.

With all the nonsensical "features" offered in ROON which no one needs, it is hilarious to hear them suggest that a DSD capable volume control is not something they will not consider.


ROON: DSD 256-Signature Rendu optical--Buffalo PRO (ESS 9038) or DSC-2--Ncore 400 Stereo-Focus Audio FS888-JL E-112 sub-Nordost Tyr USB, Cardas Clear AC, XLR, & speaker cables-Synergistic Blue & Hi Fi Tuning Supreme Cu Fuses, Dark Matter system clarifiers.    Design/Build Consultant with Sonore

 

                                                                                                  SONORE computer audio

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We get it....you hate Roon. It's clear you cannot be objective.

 

Buffering is a standard part of most streaming protocols. Why? Music and video need to be played continuously without interruption for the best user experience. You can't rely on perfect packet delivery so buffering is required. If you do rely on perfect packet delivery, you product will suck.

 

If you unplug the Ethernet cable from your streamer using DLNA, how long does music play before it stops?

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2 hours ago, barrows said:

Sounds like less intelligent design for dummies to use to me, especially if it makes implementing a good DSD volume control impossible.

With all the nonsensical "features" offered in ROON which no one needs, it is hilarious to hear them suggest that a DSD capable volume control is not something they will not consider.

 

We get it....you hate Roon. It's clear you cannot be objective.

 

Buffering is a standard part of most streaming protocols. Why? Music and video need to be played continuously without interruption for the best user experience. You can't rely on perfect packet delivery so buffering is required. If you do rely on perfect packet delivery, you product will suck.

 

If you unplug the Ethernet cable from your streamer using DLNA, how long does music play before it stops?

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I do not hate ROON.  I do think their resistance to adding a DSD capable volume control  is in error, especially considering all the other features they do offer, which are superfluous for many users.  Why not add one more feature, which would add considerable functionality for many users?  HQPlayer offers a DSD capable volume control which operates on the "core" device when using network streaming, why are the ROON developers so against doing the same?

By all accounts ROON has a very good PCM-DSD oversampling engine, and it offers the capability to oversample lower rate DSD to higher rate DSD.  This makes it a very useful software program for some who might want to run DACs which sound better with high rate DSD input.  There are many users out there who do not want (or need) to use HQPlayer for this, many who might not want to have to set up a very powerful computer to run HQPlayer, and many of the same users may want to take advantage of the increased accuracy and transparency of not having an expensive and distortion adding analog volume control and additional buffer circuitry in their signal path-the obvious solution would be ROON with a good DSD capable volume control. 

Honestly, are you just a ROON fanboy who loves whatever they do, or are there additional features you might like to have?

This is a legitimate feature request, that is all.


ROON: DSD 256-Signature Rendu optical--Buffalo PRO (ESS 9038) or DSC-2--Ncore 400 Stereo-Focus Audio FS888-JL E-112 sub-Nordost Tyr USB, Cardas Clear AC, XLR, & speaker cables-Synergistic Blue & Hi Fi Tuning Supreme Cu Fuses, Dark Matter system clarifiers.    Design/Build Consultant with Sonore

 

                                                                                                  SONORE computer audio

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Your posts in this thread regarding Roon are riddled with negativity toward Roon. All I did was point out how the Roon 5 second buffer worked which is why they need to do volume management at the endpoint. I also pointed out that most streaming solutions used buffering to counteract network issues. In fact, I made no positive comments about Roon other than them having a buffer is part of an intelligent design.

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@diecaster, you attacked me, suggesting I could not be objective, and that I hate ROON, to me those are the actions of a fanboy singing the praises of ROON regardless of a criticism which has legitimate value.

I like how ROON handles PCM-DSD oversampling and that it allows for lower rate DSD conversion to higher rates, without having to use a full on gaming super computer, but I wish they would add a high quality DSD volume control: this has nothing to do with my ability to "be objective", it is a desire for a feature which would add value to ROON for many users.  HQPlayer can do it (in the core for streaming), so why not in ROON, these are some clever folks, and I am a bit dismayed that they dismiss the value of a DSD capable VC, after all, they have volume control for PCM...


ROON: DSD 256-Signature Rendu optical--Buffalo PRO (ESS 9038) or DSC-2--Ncore 400 Stereo-Focus Audio FS888-JL E-112 sub-Nordost Tyr USB, Cardas Clear AC, XLR, & speaker cables-Synergistic Blue & Hi Fi Tuning Supreme Cu Fuses, Dark Matter system clarifiers.    Design/Build Consultant with Sonore

 

                                                                                                  SONORE computer audio

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Barrows-

Roon is also about zone playback and simultaneous zone playback. HQP isn't. Different goals. Not in direct response to anything you said, but Roon also does DSP to DSD (including for volume levelling) without converting it to PCM, which is a really cool feature that you don't find too often. 

 

I think Roon understand many users have below optimum network setups. I think their POV on who their customer base is and what is most needed for them is simply very different from what you want to do.

 

At the high end of the audio hobby we all have specific likes and dislikes. I know of all sorts of HW and software I'd never buy b/c it doesn't have a specific attribute or feature I find necessary. Obviously whoever produced it decided that feature wasn't absolutely necessary. Doesn't mean it isn't a very good product, it just means it isn't the perfect match for me. 

 

But I use the HW volume control on my system only, so maybe I shouldn't comment on this one. I hate on screen volume controls. Can never get the precision I like with adjustments. 


Main listening (small home office):

Surge protector +_iFi  AC iPurifiers >Isol-8 Mini sub Axis Power Conditioning+Isolation>CAPS IV Pipeline Server + Sonore 12V PS>Kii Control>Kii Three >GIK Room Treatments.
 

Secondary Listening: CAPS Pipeline>IFi iOne DAC>Schiit Freya>Kii Three . Also an SBT and a RB Pi 3B+ running piCorePlayer as an SBT emulator. 

All absolute statements about audio are false :)

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37 minutes ago, barrows said:

@diecaster, you attacked me, suggesting I could not be objective, and that I hate ROON, to me those are the actions of a fanboy singing the praises of ROON regardless of a criticism which has legitimate value.

 

Who said?:

 

"...ROON is not really aimed at audiophiles, and this is just another example of that..."

 

"...I wonder why they use that as a reason to not do the volume control then.  Shenanigans I guess..."

 

"...Sounds like less intelligent design for dummies to use..."

 

"With all the nonsensical "features" offered in ROON which no one needs, it is hilarious to hear them suggest that a DSD capable volume control is not something they will not consider."

 

Yep, that sound like a person that is totally objective in regards to Roon.

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17 minutes ago, diecaster said:

 

Who said?:

 

"...ROON is not really aimed at audiophiles, and this is just another example of that..."

 

"...I wonder why they use that as a reason to not do the volume control then.  Shenanigans I guess..."

 

"...Sounds like less intelligent design for dummies to use..."

 

"With all the nonsensical "features" offered in ROON which no one needs, it is hilarious to hear them suggest that a DSD capable volume control is not something they will not consider."

 

Yep, that sound like a person that is totally objective in regards to Roon.

 

+1


 Innuos Zenith SE (Roon Core) > Curious USB/Upton ISO REGEN +LPS-1/USPCB> Chord Hugo TT > ATC SCM 40A

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