Schiit EITR

[Abtr]

4 hours ago, Charente said:

@Abtr .. I thought you might ask 😀 ... EITR/DeLock is the more aggressive of the two by comparison ... not as smooth/refined as HECATE/DeLock, which results in a more relaxed listen to my ears/brain. 

 

Yes, in my setup and with my 'unknown-brand' coaxial cable (I know it's quite good though), I also prefer HECATE/Delock to EITR/Delock, exactly because, as you say, the HECATE sounds smoother and more refined. The Topping D10s doesn't even need a coax cable and when I first connected it yesterday, it was immediately clear that this was a further SQ improvement.

 

I think these are quite striking results. Underlying the audible differences in the digital Toslink output of the Delock must be the amount of (analog) electrical noise injected into the device through its digital coaxial input, as well as the construction of (or indeed the lack of) a coax cable (conducting material, shielding, etc). The ultimate effect at the Delock's Toslink output must be jitter that is either directly audible or does upset the connected DAC's optical input circuit (PLL) such that it generates its own brand of electrical noise which subsequently and audibly affects the analog output of the DAC. To me, the fact that all this is relatively easily audible is pretty remarkable..

[Abtr]

48 minutes ago, Abtr said:

...

when I first connected it yesterday, it was immediately clear that this was a further SQ improvement.

...

I can't edit my post.. What I wanted to state here is: when I connected HECATE/Delock yesterday, it was evident the Topping D10s was a further SQ improvement.

 

 

[Charente]

Yes, these listening results and comparisons are remarkable and useful. I would not have reckoned on such differences. Your explanation as to what may be going on makes sense.

 

Would you say the D10s is warm or more neutral ? ... I do like the clear, steely treble on the Hecate/DeLock (cymbals, guitars, etc). The sound textures are quite arresting.

 

 

[Charente]

I guess also that the clean power via USB will also make a difference. 

 

I do wonder whether the average person will be prepared to go to the expense such a cleaned-up front end feeding a DAC. If I tot up the cost of getting to where I am (Hecate/DeLock), it comes to something like €800, incl. power supplies. Not an insignificant sum but worthwhile to my mind.

[Abtr]

1 hour ago, Charente said:

...

Would you say the D10s is warm or more neutral ? ... I do like the clear, steely treble on the Hecate/DeLock (cymbals, guitars, etc). The sound textures are quite arresting.

 

I'd say the D10S is neutral, certainly not on the warm side. It's closer to Hecate/DeLock than to EITR/Delock and more refined and smoother than both combos. 

[Abtr]

1 hour ago, Charente said:

I guess also that the clean power via USB will also make a difference. 

 

I do wonder whether the average person will be prepared to go to the expense such a cleaned-up front end feeding a DAC. If I tot up the cost of getting to where I am (Hecate/DeLock), it comes to something like €800, incl. power supplies. Not an insignificant sum but worthwhile to my mind.

Yes, clean USB power seems to be crucial. That given, the differences between the different DDC setups remain striking, especially the differences between different USB to Toslink conversions, because there is absolute electrical/galvanic isolation between DDC and DAC, so any audible difference results from different levels, or forms of optical jitter. It's surprising how audible this is since jitter in modern digital audio equipment is not generally viewed as a big concern..

 

Topping D10s (€100), and Zerozone LPS (€100) makes a total of ~€200 . I think the SQ is certainly worth it. 

[Charente]

8 hours ago, Abtr said:

Topping D10s (€100), and Zerozone LPS (€100) makes a total of ~€200 . I think the SQ is certainly worth it. 

 

Yes, That makes more sense

[Charente]

Having already discarded the EITR in favour of an optical solution (earlier post refers), the Topping D10s has arrived to see if it can take the crown. First listen sounds promising, but I'll wait a while for it to settle down and then I'll comment further.

[Charente]

I have been listening to the Topping D10s for the last few days and to-ing fro-ing between that and the Hecate/DeLock (described earlier). Theoretically the D10s should have an advantage by eliminating the coax cable to the DeLock converter, all other things being equal.

 

I find the D10s (as a DDC) a smooth sounding device but for me it’s just too smooth, too polite … at least to my ears and headphone setup (Gungnir MB > Gilmore Lite Mk2 > Aeon Flow Open). 

 

The Hecate/DeLock has a weightier sound with more attack and yet still smooth enough for a refined listening experience. To my ears/brain vocals have more realism, piano notes strike more convincingly, and tom-toms have a more satisfying kick and ring to them. Low bass is a bit more defined. Ambience/airiness is more present. These nuance differences are small but enough to notice.

 

So, for me, the Hecate/DeLock remain in my chain as the source.

[Abtr]

12 hours ago, Charente said:

I have been listening to the Topping D10s for the last few days and to-ing fro-ing between that and the Hecate/DeLock (described earlier). Theoretically the D10s should have an advantage by eliminating the coax cable to the DeLock converter, all other things being equal.

 

I find the D10s (as a DDC) a smooth sounding device but for me it’s just too smooth, too polite … at least to my ears and headphone setup (Gungnir MB > Gilmore Lite Mk2 > Aeon Flow Open). 

 

The Hecate/DeLock has a weightier sound with more attack and yet still smooth enough for a refined listening experience. To my ears/brain vocals have more realism, piano notes strike more convincingly, and tom-toms have a more satisfying kick and ring to them. Low bass is a bit more defined. Ambience/airiness is more present. These nuance differences are small but enough to notice.

 

So, for me, the Hecate/DeLock remain in my chain as the source.

 

That's a surprising result. I revisited the Hecate/Delock combo but in my setup and to my ears the Toslink-out of the Topping definitely sounds more refined with better bass.. Possibly your LPS-1 and LPSU25 make a difference relative to my Zerozone power supplies. Did you try Topping coax-out + Delock?

[Charente]

The Topping Toslink direct to GMB certainly sounds smoother (softer ?), so perhaps it's just my preference for a bit more 'bite' to the sound.

 

Yes, I tried various permutations. Topping D10s/DeLock ... the soundstage sounds like it's moved back some distance, and less dynamic feel overall. In fact, I preferred D10s coax RCA/BNC direct to GMB over D10s/DeLock.

[Abtr]

6 hours ago, Charente said:

The Topping Toslink direct to GMB certainly sounds smoother (softer ?), so perhaps it's just my preference for a bit more 'bite' to the sound.

 

Yes, I tried various permutations. Topping D10s/DeLock ... the soundstage sounds like it's moved back some distance, and less dynamic feel overall. In fact, I preferred D10s coax RCA/BNC direct to GMB over D10s/DeLock.

Very interesting. What you experience as more 'bite' and 'attack', may be what I experience as 'less refined'.. I'm listening to speakers (KEF LS50 + sub), no headphones. In my setup I find the Topping's Toslink output sounding better than any DDC/Delock configuration regarding basically all aspects of the sound, including perceived dynamics..

 

Did you perhaps A-B the coax output versus Toslink output of the D10s without disconnecting the coax output when listening to the Toslink output? A connected coax output would defeat the optical/galvanic isolation between D10s and DAC that Toslink provides, and it would be audible.

[Charente]

13 minutes ago, Abtr said:

Did you perhaps A-B the coax output versus Toslink output of the D10s without disconnecting the coax output when listening to the Toslink output?

 

Mmm ... I'm sure when I first started I didn't have the coax connected at all, just Toslink. That's what I focused on initially. But I'll re-do the test next day or so to make sure.

 

18 minutes ago, Abtr said:

What you experience as more 'bite' and 'attack', may be what I experience as 'less refined'

 

Entirely possible. Hecate/DeLock is more refined than EITR/DeLock ... I have no doubt about that. The difference between Hecate/DeLock and D10s Toslink direct is more subtle but enough of a difference to draw a distinction to my ears.

 

Personal preference may be the decider here. Or, simply some system differences.

[Abtr]

On 8/23/2020 at 11:11 PM, Charente said:

...

Personal preference may be the decider here. Or, simply some system differences.

 

Regardless which sounds better, Eitr/Delock, Hecate/Delock or Topping, and in which system, it continues to amaze me how audible the differences between these configurations are. There are only two possible mechanisms that can account for this. First, electrical USB noise causing timing issues which result in audible jitter in the optical signal to the DAC, and second, different levels or types of radiated EMI might be picked up by the DAC and ultimately distort the analog output.

 

Out of curiosity I inserted an Intona USB isolator after the computer USB source and before the USB to optical conversion. Apart from the Intona unit, this involves an extra USB cable. The result sounded relatively dull and lifeless. How can this happen, the USB powered Intona 'only' provides additional galvanic isolation? Either the Intona introduces its own brand of HF noise on its USB output causing some kind of audible jitter in the DDC-ed optical signal to the DAC, and/or the Intona and extra USB cable radiate EMI which upsets some of the other equipment.

 

Since these phenomena are so clearly audible, I suppose the differences must be measurable at the DAC's output as some form of analog distortion. I think I might try to measure and define this myself. Anyway, in my setup with the ADI-2 DAC, I now definitely prefer the Topping USB > Toslink converter over Hecate/Delock and Eitr/Delock. Hecate/Delock is a close second to my ears..

[Abtr]

On 8/23/2020 at 11:11 PM, Charente said:

... I'm sure when I first started I didn't have the coax connected at all, just Toslink. That's what I focused on initially. But I'll re-do the test next day or so to make sure.

...

@Charente I hope everything is OK.. It's not quite like you to not follow up on a test you said you will do..

[Charente]

I have been somewhat distracted by code deadlines for the last week or so. I did re-test my setup, to make sure there were no redundant connections anywhere that might affect my hearing results. I have to conclude the same result, i.e. a personal preference for the Hecate/DeLock in my system.

 

I do wonder whether this has something to do with the difference in our transducers to our ears, your KEF's and my Aeon Flow Open Headphones. Is it the transient response differences of our transducers ? ... is it transients in the music that I am observing are missing, when I describe 'attack' and 'bite' in my system. Maybe they are lacking with the Topping D10s but are more prominent with Hecate/DeLock when I hear through the Aeon's ?

 

I'm not sure if that makes sense but clearly there must be something beyond the source components that are causing this hearing disparity ... apart from our ears, of course.

 

I do like your further thoughts about the differences between the source setups ... great insight and would be great to hear if you establish any measurements that may prove the theory.

[Charente]

I do agree with your conclusion that the difference between D10s Toslink direct to DAC and Hecate/DeLock is not big ... it is close.

[audiobomber]

12 minutes ago, Charente said:

Is it the transient response differences of our transducers ? ... is it transients in the music that I am observing are missing, when I describe 'attack' and 'bite' in my system. Maybe they are lacking with the Topping D10s but are more prominent with Hecate/DeLock when I hear through the Aeon's ?

I was discouraged from buying the D10S due to my experience with a D50S, which sounded exactly as you describe. Attack/decay was slowed or softened, which had a negative impact on PRaT. I decided the Eitr would be a safer bet. I will try it with and without an iFi iPurifier2, and an iPower 5V SMPS.

[Charente]

Glad of any input you may have @audiobomber

 

[Abtr]

57 minutes ago, Charente said:

... clearly there must be something beyond the source components that are causing this hearing disparity ...

Yes, it seems so.. What power supply did you use for the Topping D10s, the LPS-1? Did you try the LPS25?

[Charente]

I had the LPS-1 connected to the D10s ... I'll try the Audiophonics LPS25 to see what difference I can detect, as you suggest.

[audiobomber]

I used the Topping P50 LPS with the D50S.

[Abtr]

19 hours ago, audiobomber said:

I used the Topping P50 LPS with the D50S.

When you use the D10S as a DDC (I personally didn't even try the DAC ) the unit simply buffers, clocks out, and converts a USB/PCM data stream to Toslink. Yet, a decent 5V LPS significantly improves SQ relative to regular USB power from a MacMini and two 5V SMPSs that I tried..

[Charente]

I tried the Audiophonics LPSU25 power supply connected to the Topping D10s, as well as to the Hecate (before you ask @Abtr 🙂). 

 

Surprisingly, I prefer the D10s with the LPSU25 overall (versus with the UpTone LPS-1)... although I found the bass guitar chord-tones a bit easier to follow on the Hecate/LPSU25. They were that bit clearer and sounded less muted (softened ?) through the Aeons.

 

So, the attack/bite margin has closed between Hecate/LPS-1 and D10s/LPSU25 .... Not, however, the ambience/airiness. Ambience has more presence on the Hecate/LPS-1, especially when listening to performances in larger venues ... the echo/decay is more noticeable than on the D10s/LPSU25. Similarly, airiness around instruments is more notable, particularly on acoustic jazz, providing a fine 'delicacy' to the notes and improving the overall quality of the sound-stage. I've done a lot of to-ing and fro-ing and played through quite a few different albums of good recording quality to cross-check my results. To my ears this remains my preferred source.

 

As an aside: after these latest tests, I judge the Audiophonics LPSU25 to be a rather good linear power supply, with two 5v DC outputs, at a very reasonable price.

 

As a further aside: ... and continuing with the point that a good PS is one of the most important factors in getting good SQ, I will be ordering the dedicated Reference PS for my HeadAmp Gilmore Lite Mk2, which will be available soon. This should bring the quality up, approaching its bigger brother, the GSX-Mini, albeit single-ended only, which I find perfectly fine.

[Charente]

As a final aside: I really think you should get a replacement UpTone LPS-1 @Abtr, if only to prove/disprove my tests ! 🙂