Schiit EITR

[Charente]

Is the Topping D10S just powered via USB ?

[Abtr]

11 hours ago, Charente said:

Is the Topping D10S just powered via USB ?

Yes. I use a LPS for 5V injection. Galvanic isolation is per the optical Toslink output. 

[john61ct]

On 8/1/2020 at 10:15 AM, Abtr said:

Any word from Schiit yet?

Yes.

 

As I expected they refuse to even acknowledge the possibility.

 

They also will not state that it would not work.

 

I'm not currently in a position to test.

 

But if someone else trusted by the community is, and thinks it 90% likely they could test it without burning

 

(running Eitr off DC voltage directly, whatever voltage, but lowest without compromising SQ would be best)

 

I'd be willing to pay for shipping both ways.

[john61ct]

On 8/1/2020 at 9:03 AM, Abtr said:

So I tried the Topping D10S as a DDC, with clean USB 5V injection. I'll have to listen to the Topping longer and then switch back to the Eitr-Delock combo, but my initial conclusion is that the Topping sounds better, and (again) Toslink out sounds significantly better than coax out (system: MacMini streaming from Tidal >> Topping D10S >> RME ADI-2 DAC/Pre). I think with the D10S my quest for good USB sound quality might be over.

 

Wow, good to know!

 

What is the purpose of the RME AI there, just as a headphone amp? Is it actually better?

 

If using a speaker / power amp, would you go direct from the D10S output?

[Abtr]

8 hours ago, john61ct said:

Yes.

 

As I expected they refuse to even acknowledge the possibility.

 

They also will not state that it would not work.

 

I'm not currently in a position to test.

 

But if someone else trusted by the community is, and thinks it 90% likely they could test it without burning

 

(running Eitr off DC voltage directly, whatever voltage, but lowest without compromising SQ would be best)

 

I'd be willing to pay for shipping both ways.

 

The Eitr uses a 6V AC adapter (actually 7.5V AC when I measured it). So, if you feed the Eitr with 6V DC I don't see how this could burn anything, unless you have the polarity inverted and there is an ELCO connected in parallel with the power input before the rectifier, which would be highly unusual. I have two Eitrs, so I might give it a try myself. If I blow one I'll still have another.

[Charente]

There speaks a brave person !!

[Abtr]

8 hours ago, john61ct said:

 

Wow, good to know!

 

What is the purpose of the RME AI there, just as a headphone amp? Is it actually better?

 

If using a speaker / power amp, would you go direct from the D10S output?

 

I use the Topping as a DDC in order to isolate the USB interface from the DAC, just like the use-case for Eitr. I use the RME ADI-2 as a DAC/Pre, feeding a Schiit Vidar power amp directly. The Topping has no volume control, so to compare it to the RME would require an additional preamp or software volume control. There also would be no way to galvanically isolate the USB interface from the Topping DAC because it has USB input only. So I do not expect that the Topping on its own will sound even close to the Topping-RME combo, but I may try it, just for the record..

[Charente]

I've installed the DeLock Coax/Toslink converter into my main audio chain ... which now looks like this

MacMini (Audirvana) > Eitr (+Uptone LPS-1 injected 5v) > Coax to DeLock (powered by Audiophonics LPSU25), Toslink out > Gungnir MB Toslink in > Gilmore Lite Mk2 > Aeon Flow Open. 

 

First up, a relatively well recorded Jazz album, Ironside by Ruby Rushton ... lots going on here.

Initial impression is better than I expected, notably improved imaging across the soundstage.

 

So far, so good ... Need a bit more listening and then a compare against straight Eitr Coax to BNC input on the Gungnir MB.

[Abtr]

3 hours ago, Charente said:

...

So far, so good ... Need a bit more listening and then a compare against straight Eitr Coax to BNC input on the Gungnir MB.

 

I went back to Eitr + Delock and I can now definitely conclude that the Topping's Toslink out sounds better in my system.

[Charente]

Ok, so I've spent a couple of days with DeLock (Coax to Toslink converter) connected to the EITR. The DeLock is powered by an Audiophonics LPSU25 LPS to provide the 5v that it needs. I wish I had an extra UpTone LPS, but unfortunately I don't. I was intrigued by this conversion to Toslink, not least that I haven't used Toslink in a while.

 

On my main system, with Gungnir MB as the DAC, the Delock does provide slightly improved imaging of instruments and vocals, and a noticeably weightier characteristic to the sound, resulting in excellent bass. Its presentation is slightly warmer than Coax, the latter having a little more steeliness to cymbals particularly, However, that is not to say there is less detail ... on the contrary. At first, the warmth (and resulting bloom) was more pervasive than I like, but after about 24 hrs or so this seemed to largely go away. Not sure why ... does the DeLock benefit from some running in ? It seems to me to be a relatively simple circuit. 

 

I then tried it with the Metrum Acoustics Flint NOS DAC ... to be honest, I didn't hear any real difference with or without the DeLock. They sounded so similar that I would have a hard time doing a blind A/B test.

 

Personally, I think the benefit of this solution will probably depend on the paired DAC, but I can't be sure as I've only tried two. I would say that it has a positive result on the Gungnir MB and I shall continue using it there.

 

Then @Abtr brings in the Topping D10S into the melting pot !! ... I wonder what differences that will bring ?! Will it spell the end of EITR  as the DDC of choice (for many) ?

[Charente]

On 8/3/2020 at 7:17 PM, Abtr said:

 

I went back to Eitr + Delock and I can now definitely conclude that the Topping's Toslink out sounds better in my system.

 

So, to be clear, this is WITHOUT the Delock ?

[Abtr]

10 hours ago, Charente said:

...

Personally, I think the benefit of this solution will probably depend on the paired DAC, but I can't be sure as I've only tried two. I would say that it has a positive result on the Gungnir MB and I shall continue using it there.

...

Of course it's possible that not every DAC benefits audibly from the extra isolation of the Delock. I assume you prefer the Gungnir MB over the Flint NOS DAC, so you get the best sound overall with the Gugnir + Eitr + Delock (?)

 

I've tried three DACs with Eitr + Delock (Schiit Modi MB, Musical Fidelity MX DAC, RME ADI-2 DAC) and with all three SQ notably improved from adding the Delock to the Eitr. Maybe some HF noise flies right through the transformer-based isolation of the Eitr, or the coaxial S/PDIF output stage generates its own noise, which is subsequently blocked by the Delock Coax to Toslink converter.

[Abtr]

10 hours ago, Charente said:

 

So, to be clear, this is WITHOUT the Delock ?

Yes. I use the Toslink output of the Topping. So far I only tried it with the RME ADI-2 in my system where it gives a further SQ improvement over the Eitr-Delock combo.

[Charente]

1 hour ago, Abtr said:

I assume you prefer the Gungnir MB over the Flint NOS DAC, so you get the best sound overall with the Gugnir + Eitr + Delock (?)

 

Yes, I do overall ... however, I do like the spread-out sound-stage and smooth presentation of the FLINT, but ambience/airiness is not as good as the GMB (to my ears/brain). I kept an open mind when comparing and I was surprised that DeLock made no noticeable difference on the FLINT.

[Charente]

1 hour ago, Abtr said:

... where it gives a further SQ improvement over the Eitr-Delock combo.

 

How would you characterise the improvement ?

[Abtr]

2 hours ago, Charente said:

 

How would you characterise the improvement ?

Cleaner bass, better dynamics, better detail and imaging and placement of instruments, and overall less fatiguing (if at all).

[Charente]

@Abtr ... sounds worthwhile ... best call Audiophonics then ! 😄

[Charente]

Of course, the next burning question is ... how does the EITR/DeLock or Topping D10s solution compare to Schiit's Unison USB equipped DACs ?

[john61ct]

My understanding is that Eitr brings all the USB conditioning extras of Unison to whatever DAC it connects to.

 

The Topping D10 / D10S apparently does that DDC job just as well.

 

Of course the circuitry after the SPDIF transfer may be better or worse, affecting final output SQ.

[john61ct]

On 8/3/2020 at 3:25 AM, Abtr said:

 

The Eitr uses a 6V AC adapter (actually 7.5V AC when I measured it). So, if you feed the Eitr with 6V DC I don't see how this could burn anything, unless you have the polarity inverted and there is an ELCO connected in parallel with the power input before the rectifier, which would be highly unusual. I have two Eitrs, so I might give it a try myself. If I blow one I'll still have another.

Apparently many SMPS / bridge rectifiers designed for AC input can accept DC no problem, with a x1.41 voltage factor?

 

So for 5Vdc output, comes to a bit over 7Vdc going into the nominal 6Vac input?

 

If you were able to test this possibility I'd be most appreciative!

[Charente]

Looking at the Topping D10s specs, it uses an XMOS U208 USB interface, different from EITR.

 

Then I recalled that the Armature HECATE DDC (Euro version of Singxer F1), which I used before the EITR, also uses the same XMOS U208 chip, but also has a Xilink FGP to help lower jitter and double isolation circuitry. 

 

So, I decided to give HECATE a go paired with the DeLock … powered just by Uptone LPS-1, via USB power injection. Left it a couple of hours to let the clocks settle down.

 

My personal impression is that HECATE/DeLock is a noticeable improvement over EITR/DeLock, mainly in its more neutral presentation. The slight warmth of EITR/DeLock troubled me a bit which, to my ears, softened the steeliness on cymbals & electric guitar. The HECATE/DeLock is more incisive and there is good ambience and airiness around the instruments. Detail on double-bass is also excellent. As for lack of fatigue, it seems fine to me but time will tell.

 

I guess this will be a matter of personal preference.

 

I wonder how the D10s compares to the HECATE/DeLock ? IIRC, @Abtr, you had tried a HECATE before. Perhaps you could do a comparison in your setup ?

[Abtr]

1 hour ago, Charente said:

...

I wonder how the D10s compares to the HECATE/DeLock ? IIRC, @Abtr, you had tried a HECATE before. Perhaps you could do a comparison in your setup ?

Good idea. I'll try it this weekend.

[Charente]

Update: I’ve been listening some more to the HECATE/DeLock setup I mentioned earlier and whilst I was relatively happy with it, I did start to notice the occasional slight glare on upper-mid piano block chords, especially when listening to Oscar Peterson. It was starting to grate with me.

 

To my mind it could be the coax cable, I initially thought … it is a rather old Audioquest coax cable dating back to the late 1980’s … (yes, I don’t throw anything away !). Strangely, I didn’t have anything more recent by way of RCA/RCA coax in my box of bits. I’m not a natural cable chaser and rarely spend more than about €35 on a cable these days.

 

However, I did find another cable in my more ‘precious’ box of bits (!) … This was a cable that was ‘sold’ to me when I visited a Theta distributor stand at a UK audio show back in the early 1990’s. At the time, I was in the market for a Theta TLC (Timebase Linque Conditioner), a Toslink to Coax converter from a Marantz CD player to go into a Meridian 203 DAC. The sales guy absolutely insisted that I also bought this cable for the connection to the DAC … I had (much) more money in those days, so obligingly bought it. I was told it was 99.9% silver with WBA RCA plugs but only 30cms long … and it cost A LOT. Almost as much as the TLC.

 

i had used it before with the HECATE some 2 years ago, but I thought I would use it with the HECATE to DeLock connection (see photo). I wasn’t really expecting anything dramatically different … to me the cable should make little difference as the signal gets converted to an optical connection with DeLock.

 

In fact,  it has made a difference … the big difference is how smooth and articulate the sound is now … no glare whatsoever … Upper-Mids and treble are superb. Still the same weighty presentation, great bass, bags of detail and ambience/air. I've been listening to this for most of the day ...various albums. Not a blink of listener fatigue

 

Don't get me wrong, I’m not suggesting we all go out and buy pure silver cables … who knows how much this cable would cost today, I dread to think. But, I already had it and I’m glad I tried it.

 

Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

[Abtr]

16 hours ago, Charente said:

...

In fact,  it has made a difference … the big difference is how smooth and articulate the sound is now … no glare whatsoever … Upper-Mids and treble are superb. Still the same weighty presentation, great bass, bags of detail and ambience/air. I've been listening to this for most of the day ...various albums. Not a blink of listener fatigue

 

Don't get me wrong, I’m not suggesting we all go out and buy pure silver cables … who knows how much this cable would cost today, I dread to think. But, I already had it and I’m glad I tried it.

 

Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

...

Did you also try this cable with Eitr?

[Charente]

@Abtr .. I thought you might ask 😀 ... EITR/DeLock is the more aggressive of the two by comparison ... not as smooth/refined as HECATE/DeLock, which results in a more relaxed listen to my ears/brain.