Schiit EITR

[Charente]

Thank-you @exdmd

 

Yep ... that the long and the short of it !

[Charente]

I see the decision NOT to produce a UNISON version of EITR as a strategic ploy ... it could attract more punters over to Schiit products if they are the only ones that have UNISON ... IF it's as good as the beta testers say it is. BIG if at present.

[Abtr]

49 minutes ago, Charente said:

I see the decision NOT to produce a UNISON version of EITR as a strategic ploy ... it could attract more punters over to Schiit products if they are the only ones that have UNISON ... IF it's as good as the beta testers say it is. BIG if at present.

What about the suggestion to stop the production of Eitr, with or without a Unison successor? In the Head-fi post Jason Stoddard writes: "Eitr is pretty much dead as a product due to slow sales (like Wyrd) and will probably not be made anymore." I had no idea. IMO Eitr is a brilliant product (apart from the occasional dropouts) and I thought it could take a substantial slice of the DDC market (I recommend it to all my friends ). Wyrd is still available and (I assume) produced. I don't get it..

[exdmd]

The new USB receiver obsoletes Eitr and beta testers I have talked to say the difference is not subtle at all. If you watch the video Mike and Jason did at RMAF 2018 you can tell just how much of an advance they think it is. Again, have to wait for the reviewers to get the production boards and see how it fares. I assume the Unison USB will only be offered on DACs with replaceable USB boards (Bifrost and up) due to space limitations. If that is the case and Unison does sound fantastic Bifrost could be the DAC to buy under $1000.

[TJHUB]

2 minutes ago, exdmd said:

The new USB receiver obsoletes Eitr and beta testers I have talked to say the difference is not subtle at all. If you watch the video Mike and Jason did at RMAF 2018 you can tell just how much of an advance they think it is. Again, have to wait for the reviewers to get the production boards and see how it fares. I assume the Unison USB will only be offered on DACs with replaceable USB boards (Bifrost and up) due to space limitations. If that is the case and Unison does sound fantastic Bifrost could be the DAC to buy under $1000.

 

I think you’re really stretching things here.  The USB implementation, no matter how great, is not going to negate the quality of the DAC and it’s analog output stage.  

 

It it would be great to have a USB implementation designed FOR audio that truly doesn’t negatively affect the sound, but nothing is ever perfect.

[Charente]

2 hours ago, Abtr said:

What about the suggestion to stop the production of Eitr, with or without a Unison successor? In the Head-fi post Jason Stoddard writes: "Eitr is pretty much dead as a product due to slow sales (like Wyrd) and will probably not be made anymore." I had no idea. IMO Eitr is a brilliant product (apart from the occasional dropouts) and I thought it could take a substantial slice of the DDC market (I recommend it to all my friends ). Wyrd is still available and (I assume) produced. I don't get it..

 

Yes, perhaps you are right. I saw his quote in 2 parts.... EITR not selling well, seemed to me a bit of an afterthought.... but who knows. It also seems that they are targeting W10 ... not W7 (not that I'm a Windows user) but I'm sure there are plenty of remaining W7 users out there, ... and for the time being.

 

I agree it's surprising that sales have dived considering how good the product is at the price-point ... but there are so many DDC's out there. However, there wouldn't be any competition against a UNISON DDC and if it's as good as they say.

[buonassi]

I've said it before, and I'll say it again and again, the Eitr was revelatory and a game changer for me on my metrum Amethyst.  

 

First off, the fact that you can get one used on head-fi relatively risk free for $120 and B stock brand new for now much more direct from Schiit is mind boggling.

 

The ONLY limitation is the transient AC spike interruptions.  Despite that, I rec this product weekly to folks I chat with.  

 

It's almost consternating to see it being discontinued  Certainly a bit sad. 

[Charente]

@buonassi +1

[Abtr]

Recently I tried a number of different computer audio hardware configurations involving all, or a subset of the following components: PC/Mac > Intona > Eitr > DAC > preamp. Generally SQ is better with Eitr in the USB chain, but with one (Lenovo) laptop, without the Intona isolator between PC and  Eitr, there are regular dropouts which do not seem to be related to mains switching noise (fridges, etc.). It seems that somewhere some static charge is building up which periodically discharges, typically breaking the USB connection at the PC side (resetting Eitr doesn't restore the connection). The Intona's galvanic isolation prevents this from happening. With the Intona before Eitr, dropouts are only caused by mains switches and (in my home) are fairly infrequent and they are short and don't coincide with USB connection loss.

 

Now, I 'upgraded' this particular laptop some time ago by grounding it with a wire that connects the negative output of the SMPS (usually the outer jacket of the power plug) to mains ground. Note that  @JohnSwenson recommends this to eliminate SMPS leakage current. Anyway, in this case it introduced a ground loop that ultimately caused the problem described above. Not grounding (floating) the laptop basically had the same effect as inserting the Intona in the USB chain: no more disconnecting dropouts.

 

So, if you are experiencing dropouts and disconnects with Eitr then I recommend trying the Intona. The cause may well be a ground loop. I personally use the non-industrial version (isolation up to 1000V) which is cheaper.

 

I'm not sure how Eitr can support such a ground loop but apparently it does.

 

[mrvco]

On 2/24/2019 at 1:44 PM, buonassi said:

I've said it before, and I'll say it again and again, the Eitr was revelatory and a game changer for me on my metrum Amethyst.  

 

First off, the fact that you can get one used on head-fi relatively risk free for $120 and B stock brand new for now much more direct from Schiit is mind boggling.

 

The ONLY limitation is the transient AC spike interruptions.  Despite that, I rec this product weekly to folks I chat with.  

 

It's almost consternating to see it being discontinued  Certainly a bit sad. 

 

I have an Eitr on the way to pair with my Amethyst.  Connected via USB, the Amethyst seems to be very sensitive to static electricity. I haven't tried coax yet, but I haven't had any static issues when using the optical input.

[OldBigEars]

On ‎2‎/‎24‎/‎2019 at 3:44 PM, buonassi said:

I've said it before, and I'll say it again and again, the Eitr was revelatory and a game changer for me on my metrum Amethyst.  

 

First off, the fact that you can get one used on head-fi relatively risk free for $120 and B stock brand new for now much more direct from Schiit is mind boggling.

 

The ONLY limitation is the transient AC spike interruptions.  Despite that, I rec this product weekly to folks I chat with.  

 

It's almost consternating to see it being discontinued  Certainly a bit sad. 

 

Same experience for me with my Hegel HD25.  Of all the audio upgrades I've done - this was the most immediately obvious.  I was literally laughing after I connected it, before I had time to sit down.  An absolute steal at the price, compared to all the other stuff we shell out for. If they've got something even better, it must be one hell of a product.

[Abtr]

23 hours ago, Abtr said:

Recently I tried a number of different computer audio hardware configurations involving all, or a subset of the following components: PC/Mac > Intona > Eitr > DAC > preamp. Generally SQ is better with Eitr in the USB chain, but with one (Lenovo) laptop, without the Intona isolator between PC and  Eitr, there are regular dropouts which do not seem to be related to mains switching noise (fridges, etc.). It seems that somewhere some static charge is building up which periodically discharges, typically breaking the USB connection at the PC side (resetting Eitr doesn't restore the connection). The Intona's galvanic isolation prevents this from happening. With the Intona before Eitr, dropouts are only caused by mains switches and (in my home) are fairly infrequent and they are short and don't coincide with USB connection loss.

 

Now, I 'upgraded' this particular laptop some time ago by grounding it with a wire that connects the negative output of the SMPS (usually the outer jacket of the power plug) to mains ground. Note that  @JohnSwenson recommends this to eliminate SMPS leakage current. Anyway, in this case it introduced a ground loop that ultimately caused the problem described above. Not grounding (floating) the laptop basically had the same effect as inserting the Intona in the USB chain: no more disconnecting dropouts.

 

So, if you are experiencing dropouts and disconnects with Eitr then I recommend trying the Intona. The cause may well be a ground loop. I personally use the non-industrial version (isolation up to 1000V) which is cheaper.

 

I'm not sure how Eitr can support such a ground loop but apparently it does.

 

 

My conclusion above is incorrect! The ground loop is *not* running through Eitr. This is no surprise because Eitr is advertised to provide full galvanic isolation, like the Intona.

 

I use an Uptone Audio LPS-1 to inject clean 5V DC into the USB input of Eitr (even though that may not be necessary). This device is advertised to work like a battery power supply, completely isolated from mains power and ground. It switches between 2 banks of ultra-capacitors, one charging and the other providing DC power. I suspect that at the exact moment the switch is made between the 2 capacitor banks there is no mains ground isolation and some energetic ground loop causes a USB dropout or disconnect. Note that I grounded the LPS-1 by connecting the negative output of its (Meanwell) SMPS to mains ground. Possibly  @JohnSwenson or @Superdad  can comment on this.

     

Without the LPS-1 (for 5V USB power injection) I experience no more dropouts/disconnects with Eitr in my system.

[Superdad]

6 hours ago, Abtr said:

I use an Uptone Audio LPS-1 to inject clean 5V DC into the USB input of Eitr (even though that may not be necessary).

 

Ground isolation is complete in the UltraCap supplies even at the moment of bank alternation.  

Your's is a rather unusual use case.  I would like to see a wiring diagram for the 5VBUS injector cable you are using, and also to know what else is in your USB chain from the laptop to the Eitr.  

The USB ground from the laptop to the Eitr is still intact--and now joined by the zero-volt "ground" of the UltraCap supply, so there are still some ground currents from the laptop.

 

Also, have you tried it with your laptop running just on battery?  That ground-shunt you did of your laptop supply does not eliminate standard SMPS AC leakage, it just shunts the high-source-impedance variant--helpful to an UltraCap supply, but possibly causing good things with your laptop.  Try removing that.

You also might be better off with one of our UpTone-branded 36W SMPS chargers for your LPS-1 as it is internally ground-shunted.  We have seen some reports of people doing the external wire trick and it resulting in odd behavior due to differing ground potentials (I'm not explaining that right, but there is a possibility).

 

Lastly, it is hard to know what interaction is occurring with the primary side of the Wurth Electronik LAN transformers that Schitt uses at the input of the Eitr.

 

Clearly you have a lot more experimentation to do before any conclusions can be drawn.  Keep us posted.  

--Alex C.

[Solid-State]

" Lastly, it is hard to know what interaction is occurring with the primary side of the Wurth Electronik LAN transformers that Schitt uses at the input of the Eitr. "

 

LAN transformer on USB input ??
please explain

[R1200CL]

@Abtr

Why not just purchase an isoregen 😀 ?

[Superdad]

49 minutes ago, TubeMan said:

LAN transformer on USB input ??
please explain

 

I am mistaken about the topology of the Eitr.  The USB signal first goes through the Cmedia USB processor before encountering the Wurth transformers (and yes, if you look up the part number, thier primary application is for LAN signals).

 

I am remembering now what the mechanism of @Abtr‘s issue really is:

It has nothing to do with the output of the LPS-1 into his VBUS injector cable.  No pulse or glitch of any kind occurs on the output.  Rather, what he is experiencing is related to the AC charger side and the considerable current draw/ramp/drop that takes place as the charger responds to the needs of LPS-1 when the ultracapacitor banks alternate.

Somehow, either fields off the unshieled zip cord of DC coming from the charger are affecting other cables through the air, or the path through the ground-shunt wire he has on the Mean Well’s DC output cable is forming a loop with something else in his system. That also is probably not helped by the fact that the AC side of that particular Mean Well model is not grounded (despite the 3-pin IEC socket of the brick, that unit does not have its ground pin atteched to anything internally). Hence my recommendation that he first try unhooking the ground shunt and also that he get our internally shunted brick (the one that we supply with the newer generation LPS-1.2).

 

Don’t know why I did not think of the above earlier—since we have had the rare client encounter this in the past and it was always tracked to an AC side interaction.

[Abtr]

52 minutes ago, Superdad said:

 

I am mistaken about the topology of the Eitr.  The USB signal first goes through the Cmedia USB processor before encountering the Wurth transformers (and yes, if you look up the part number, thier primary application is for LAN signals).

 

I am remembering now what the mechanism of @Abtr‘s issue really is:

It has nothing to do with the output of the LPS-1 into his VBUS injector cable.  No pulse or glitch of any kind occurs on the output.  Rather, what he is experiencing is related to the AC charger side and the considerable current draw/ramp/drop that takes place as the charger responds to the needs of LPS-1 when the ultracapacitor banks alternate.

Somehow, either fields off the unshieled zip cord of DC coming from the charger are affecting other cables through the air, or the path through the ground-shunt wire he has on the Mean Well’s DC output cable is forming a loop with something else in his system. That also is probably not helped by the fact that the AC side of that particular Mean Well model is not grounded (despite the 3-pin IEC socket of the brick, that unit does not have its ground pin atteched to anything internally). Hence my recommendation that he first try unhooking the ground shunt and also that he get our internally shunted brick (the one that we supply with the newer generation LPS-1.2).

 

Don’t know why I did not think of the above earlier—since we have had the rare client encounter this in the past and it was always tracked to an AC side interaction.

 

Hi Alex. Thanks for the reply. I use this adapter for the 5V injection:

https://www.audiophonics.fr/en/various-adapters/usb-b-adapter-cable-for-55-21mm-female-power-supply-p-8332.html

It is wired correctly, otherwise I suppose it wouldn't work. Currently there's nothing else in the USB chain from laptop to Eitr. I will try your suggestions. This will take some time because dropouts/disconnects occur only each half hour or so and sometimes it takes longer.

 

Regarding the grounding of the laptop, I grounded it mainly to remedy some dropout problems that I had with the USB receiver of an RME ADI-2 DAC. There existed a 59V potential between the USB ground (the black wire) of the ungrounded laptop and the USB ground of the grounded ADI-2 USB input. After I grounded the laptop this potential was exactly 0.000V. Now the Eitr USB is floating so grounding the laptop may be quite pointless, but it shouldn't heart either.. 

[Abtr]

3 hours ago, Superdad said:

... what he is experiencing is related to the AC charger side and the considerable current draw/ramp/drop that takes place as the charger responds to the needs of LPS-1 when the ultracapacitor banks alternate.

Somehow, either fields off the unshieled zip cord of DC coming from the charger are affecting other cables through the air, or the path through the ground-shunt wire he has on the Mean Well’s DC output cable is forming a loop with something else in his system. ...

 

Okay, the problem is basically solved by removing the ground-shunt from the MeanWell (keeping the ground connection of the laptop). No more dropouts/disconnects with Eitr, and it sounds great. The original problem must then be a high energy ground-loop in the laptop and grounded MeanWell SMPS at the point the LPS-1 switches its Ultra-Cap banks..

[Charente]

On 3/8/2019 at 6:15 PM, OldBigEars said:

If they've got something even better, it must be one hell of a product.

 

From what I hear there may (sadly) not be an EITR equivalent with the UNISON USB technology. 

[Charente]

On 3/7/2019 at 11:04 PM, mrvco said:

I have an Eitr on the way to pair with my Amethyst

 

I have recently acquired a FLINT and will be trying out the EITR as well for DDC duties ... might be an idea to buy an additional EITR before they become unavailable !

[Charente]

@Abtr & @Superdad ... interesting discourse. I noticed that VortexBox in the UK are selling the Uptone internally shunted SMPS, so I've ordered one for my LPS-1, although I'm not regularly experiencing the drop-out problems described. What sonic benefits could I expect, if any ?

[Superdad]

3 hours ago, Charente said:

I noticed that VortexBox in the UK are selling the Uptone internally shunted SMPS, so I've ordered one for my LPS-1, although I'm not regularly experiencing the drop-out problems described. What sonic benefits could I expect, if any ?

 

Probably very little sonic benefit (I can't hear the difference between the new one and the original Mean Well, though others say they do). 

But technically it completely fixes the one Achilles heel of our UltraCap design.  

By shunting to AC mains ground the zero-volt (-ve) "ground" of the SMPS output, high-source-impedance leakage is prevented from ever entering the UltraCap unit.

Unlike typical low-source-impedance leakage--which virtually all SMPS produce a lot of and which our UltraCap units completely block--the high source-impedance variety can get through.  That is because we use transistors--as opposed to mechanical relays--as switches to alternate between the two ultracap banks, and in their off-state the transistors have enough capacitance (total of all of them being about 80pF in the LPS-1, 35pF in the LPS-1.2) to pass high-source-impedance leakage.

[Charente]

Thank-you @Superdad ... always good to remove any Achilles heels  ... helps the nervosa !

[mrvco]

21 hours ago, Charente said:

 

I have recently acquired a FLINT and will be trying out the EITR as well for DDC duties ... might be an idea to buy an additional EITR before they become unavailable !

 

The Eitr makes a world of difference w/ the Amethyst on my 2ch speaker system.  Through the USB input, the sound stage was distractingly incoherent, in that it sounded like it was bouncing between speakers with a big gap in the middle.  So far the Eitr seems to eliminate that effect, but I'll need to do some more listening.  Before the Eitr, I was ready to relegate the Amethyst to headphone listening only.

[Charente]

@mrvco ... thank-you for your EITR experience feedback with the Amethyst.