Pro-Ject Pre Box S2 Digital: MQA HW decoding at reasonable cost

[left channel]

Next test: will it connect to my Android phone? Pixel XL, UAPP.  This works with my Schiit Modi 2U via a UTG cable, directly to the Modi or through a USB REGEN to the Modi.

First, how to power it and connect:
● Unable to power the Pre Box S2 Digital directly from the phone. Android shows the "USB Supplying Power to Attached Device" message, but apparently does not feed enough power to the Box.
● Powering the Box with the supplied wall-wart doesn't help: the Box lights up, but UAPP reports no DAC found.
● Putting a USB REGEN into the chain works! Full communication between UAPP and the DAC.

Results:
● Playing hi-res files on the device OK.
● Streaming above 44.1 kHz stutters until bit-perfect enabled.
● Tidal HiFi streaming OK, 44.1 and 48 kHz (UAPP and Pre Box show same sample rate)
● Tidal MQA streaming OK, 96 and 192 kHz (UAPP shows 48 kHz but Pre Box shows 192)
● Qobuz low-res and Hi-Res streaming OK, to 192 kHz (UAPP and Pre Box show same sample rates.)

I get the popping noise on this source too, for example when opening the app, or when switching from 44.1 to 48 kHz (pop in the left channel) and back (pop in the right channel). Very annoying, especially at high volumes. Can't wait for the firmware update.

[gahabana]

hi @left channel - think your findings are exactly the same as mine ! it does sound awesome ... i've spent the afternoon comparing it with benchmark DAC2 (benchmark used as preamp for Pro-ject S2) so i could easily switch between the 2 ... and even if i assume there is no loss within Benchmark when used as preamp - i could not tell a difference ... yes, Pro-Ject S2 is wee bit brighter but don't think it's unpleasant. All else sounds exactly the same to me  sounstage as good as it was ... maybe even little better separation of instruments (or just due to it's brightness ) ... some voices sound little darker on Benchmark but differences are really small to my dumb ears.

If pops do go away after f-ware upgrade - ill have all i need !

 

[left channel]

@gahabana thanks that's very helpful. Not sure I understand your layout with the Benchmark inline there. Can you please describe in more detail? And regardless, I'd be very curious to learn what the Pro-Ject sounds like to you when connected directly, if it's not too much trouble.

[left channel]

On 9/30/2017 at 4:16 PM, left channel said:

Also, the unit does not correctly sense and display sample rates from Qobuz. It does that OK with Tidal or MusicBee. I don't know if anyone has reported this yet. I see in the pinkfishmedia thread John Westlake promised to reduce the "pop" with a firmware update in a week or two. He said the fix would be "basically increasing the time before the DAC comes out of Mute after sample rate change." I hope that doesn't clip any music.

 

I fixed the Qobuz problem! The Windows app had somehow dropped out of WASAPI Exclusive Mode while I was switching DACs again and again in my testing. In other words, it's my fault. Sorry. I fixed that, and all is well.

Also, John Westlake has reconfirmed to us that a fix for the "pop" sound is on his to-do list. In fact, he posted that "the XMOS interface used on the S2 is a development for our MDAC2 project so this early feedback helps debug the software before its release". It's great to know John is out there.

[MagnusH]

So, how does the Pro-Ject DAC sounds compared to your Schiit stuff?

[gahabana]

13 hours ago, left channel said:

@gahabana thanks that's very helpful. Not sure I understand your layout with the Benchmark inline there. Can you please describe in more detail? And regardless, I'd be very curious to learn what the Pro-Ject sounds like to you when connected directly, if it's not too much trouble.

hi @left channel unlike most DAC's Benchmark DAC2-HGC is also an analogue preamplifier (has 2 analogue unbalanced inputs) in addition to couple of digital inputs (USB, TosLink, RCA). It has both balanced and unbalanced output. Via remote you can chose which input to listen to (can be any of the digital or analogu inputs).

SO i have 2 parallel paths (2 players that i sync when i want to do testing via Roon or LMS):

1. computer1 -> USB out to -> Benchmark DAC2 USB digital input -> Balanced out to Bryston 4B-SST2 amp -> Speakers Bryston Model T

2. computer2-> USB out to -> Pro-Ject S2 dac -> RCA out to Benchmark DAC2 analogue input -> Balanced out ... etc all the same as above

 

That allows me if computer1 or 2 are synchronised to switch between DACs on the fly and through same amp/speakers hear the difference. Yes, you might say - maybe Benchmark is adding a layer to Pro-Ject when acting as pre-amp and is not 100% transparent - but i think its excelelnt as pre-amp and worse case if it does sound better when going to the amp - that is even better news

 

LAstly i did of course connect . S2 also directly to Bryston amp (it has both balanced and unbalanced inputs, you flip a witch to chose which to use at the back of the amp). But in that scenario pops/thumps were sometimes too loud though it did sound great ... so until pops/clicks are fixed am running it via Benchmark that serves as analogue preamp and clicks/pops are less loud (guess due to capacitors in the benchmark or but also that then i use benchmark for volume control and S2 is at 0 or -1dB so as it attenuates the music, it attenuates the clickl. When S2 goes directly, though it's volume control is working well it does not attenuate the pops/clicks).

 

Hope this helps ? 

 

PS. as for Computer1 and 2 i tried Macbook 12" running MacOS and 15"Macbook pro (older) running Windows and Odroid-xu4 and NanoPi Neo single board computers running linux. as Roon or squeezelite endpoints they all behave the same (from 15$ computer to 2000$ laptop ) ... which is testament to the DAC  working consistently and properly (even clicking

... well the only 'unwell' thing is Windows 10 USB 2l0 native driver which as you found out without manufacturer drivers (and i dont have a desire to run windows anyhow so did not care) does not work well. As I don't need Windows and don't have a CD-Rom to read shipped CD ... i did not care trying in addition with Windows/native drivers

[arcman]

How is the Pro-Ject as a Preamp? Just curious since it will be filling in temporary as I just sold my Peachtree and will be getting a new pre around mid october.

[gahabana]

18 minutes ago, arcman said:

How is the Pro-Ject as a Preamp? Just curious since it will be filling in temporary as I just sold my Peachtree and will be getting a new pre around mid october.

by the time you get the answer on any forum on that questions you will have your new pre-amp anyhow

since all my sources are digital i don't see too much need for it - if the DAC is good it should not have any problem properly driving an average (or above average) amp that has 10-50k input impedance and max power sensitivity at 2VRMS .. and that is what most of the DAC's output ... though i read lot of people write about DAC's sounding better going not directly to power amp but via some preamp ... but net is - additional parts can not make sound better and only help if basics are not right (high output impednace of the DAC) and in my (simple) opinion can only sound different if they change the sound ... plus if you connect output from DAC to preamp ... dac puts 2Vouts ... preamps takes it to 4 or 5 or 10 or 15V and then it attenuates it as all amps need only 2V for max power (exception Benchark AHB amp and few others) ... 

However I DO recognise convenience of preamps ... can connect multiple sources, dac's etc ... remote, no single point of failure (except preamp itself) etc etc  

 

my 1cent

[gahabana]

1 hour ago, arcman said:

How is the Pro-Ject as a Preamp? Just curious since it will be filling in temporary as I just sold my Peachtree and will be getting a new pre around mid october.

but, as for Pro-ject S2 DAC being used witouht pre-amp - directly to power-amp - sounds great to me. Once pop/clicks are sorted in firmware ill remove pre-amp i have now. 

[left channel]

@gahabana thank you, that does help a lot. Those popping sounds are indeed annoying. I look forward to your comparisons when you can attach it directly, but the Benchmark is likely adding nothing but balancing.

@arcman as a preamp it's fairly transparent, but to fully evaluate the quality of the DAC I need to do more listening before commenting further.

@MagnusH sorry for taking so long, but I need more time with this comparison to ensure I'm not falling victim to expectation bias. The differences are small, but I believe they are there. It's certainly a great feature-packed value for the money. More soon. 

[MagnusH]

If you have a better power available, try it with that as well. I read it would benefit from more stable 5V power  (ISO Regen, iFi nano/micro iUSB3, etc).

[arcman]

I just plugged mine in ( no usb) as a dac. Vlume set a 0db. So far so good. The correct resolution values come up for roon, tidal and Qobuz. I have not changed any filters yet. Set up as “pro-ject best”.  I did enable distortion compensation. Sounds just a tad smoother imo. To be honest, with no break in, i think the bluesound node internal dac very slightly edges it out. The clicking has to get solved. I’ll keep it since i need a dac for my Apple Tv as well. Plus, my next pre will have multiple analog inputs. I can run both digital and analog outs of the blusound

[arcman]

Looking thru the Pinkfish thread, i say the firmware update is weeks away. Westlake stepped back a bit toward the end ( we have lots of work, etc). I think its great he is paying attention. Plus, Westlake stated a “ fixed” volume option in menu is in the works. 

[left channel]

14 hours ago, MagnusH said:

If you have a better power available, try it with that as well. I read it would benefit from more stable 5V power  (ISO Regen, iFi nano/micro iUSB3, etc).

 

I have at this point tried doing so using a USB REGEN with an Android phone and with a Windows PC. It was necessary with the phone, but music from the phone sounded thin and weak. It was not necessary with the PC, but I tried it anyway and some sort of malfunction occurred that distorted the music. I have not tried to diagnose or correct this.

The tl;dr version follows. :-)

Android
The new information here is that after listening for a while, I found that my phone as a source sounded far weaker and thinner than my PC. As I mentioned in a previous post, I had to use a USB REGEN to get this Box to pair with the phone. The phone does not supply enough power alone. I first tried connecting the Pro-Ject wall wart,* but UAPP still could not detect the DAC.

Windows
This is my first post on this issue. I've tried inserting the USB REGEN between the Box and my PC, just as an experiment. That caused some sort of malfunction, in which the music sounded like a vinyl record being dragged slowly backwards. As with the Android-REGEN experiment, Windows automatically installed a driver for this combination. Maybe something went wrong with the driver this time; I don't know. I didn't even reboot and retry then, but I may go back and figure this out some other time.

*The manual advises us the wall wart is only for coax and optical connections, and may cause problems when used together with USB. But as I said above I did get desperate enough to try it with the Android, however that alone did not help Android detect it.

[MagnusH]

I also bought this dac a few days ago, and is using it with iFi nano iUSB3 to get less noisy power, and that worked very good (it did improve the sound as well). My own comparison with my old dac which was a DragonFly Red is that it sounds much better in every way, but it would be interesting to see how it compares to other dacs.

[left channel]

14 hours ago, arcman said:

I just plugged mine in ( no usb) as a dac. Vlume set a 0db. So far so good. The correct resolution values come up for roon, tidal and Qobuz. I have not changed any filters yet. Set up as “pro-ject best”.  I did enable distortion compensation. Sounds just a tad smoother imo. To be honest, with no break in, i think the bluesound node internal dac very slightly edges it out. The clicking has to get solved. I’ll keep it since i need a dac for my Apple Tv as well. Plus, my next pre will have multiple analog inputs. I can run both digital and analog outs of the blusound

 

Audio Quality has two options, "Test" and "Best". The manual says Test "gives the best value when tested on measuring device (lowest distortion etc)", while Best is "the designers'  preferred sound setting". If you change any other setting, Audio Quality becomes "User".

 

"Best" sets Distortion Compensation to disabled and the filter to Optimal Transient. "Test" sets Distortion Compensation to enabled and the filter to Brickwall.  Adjust distortion compensation or filters yourself, and Audio Quality will display "User".

John Westlake's MDAC designs contain a similar set of filters, but with more than one than one type of Optimal Transient. On other forums most users prefer one of the Optimal Transient filters, so I guess for now I'll leave it there for now. I may play with Distortion Compensation some though.

This thing has so many options it distracts from any attempt at a quick test and comparison — though I mean that in a good way.

[arcman]

18 minutes ago, left channel said:

 

Audio Quality has two options, "Test" and "Best". The manual says Test "gives the best value when tested on measuring device (lowest distortion etc)", while Best is "the designers'  preferred sound setting". If you change any other setting, Audio Quality becomes "User".

 

"Best" sets Distortion Compensation to disabled and the filter to Optimal Transient. "Test" sets Distortion Compensation to enabled and the filter to Brickwall.  Adjust distortion compensation or filters yourself, and Audio Quality will display "User".

John Westlake's MDAC designs contain a similar set of filters, but with more than one than one type of Optimal Transient. On other forums most users prefer one of the Optimal Transient filters, so I guess for now I'll leave it there for now. I may play with Distortion Compensation some though.

This thing has so many options it distracts from any attempt at a quick test and comparison — though I mean that in a good way.

I have to agree. To be honest, I prefer lest setting options (filters, etc). I always start thinking "what if I tried this filter with that track, etc). I'd rather just plug and play. This evening, I'm removing the Peachtree out of the system and just using the Pro-Ject as a pre. I'll be curious to how it sounds for such a small footprint

[left channel]

1 hour ago, MagnusH said:

I also bought this dac a few days ago, and is using it with iFi nano iUSB3 to get less noisy power, and that worked very good (it did improve the sound as well). My own comparison with my old dac which was a DragonFly Red is that it sounds much better in every way, but it would be interesting to see how it compares to other dacs.

 

Thanks for the comparison. So far I've found this DAC quite similar to my Modi 2U, when output through preamps directly to active speakers. Both are very neutral. They are so close I fear any difference I think I'm hearing may be due to expectation bias, but the Modi 2U may be just a bit smoother. I'm still comparing them, but that's my tentative initial impression.

I'm still in the process of comparing the headphone amp to my Magni 2U, and am not ready to comment on that yet. As @arcman and I agreed above, the options in this unit can be a distraction and are not entirely necessary for most of us. I really should leave them on their defaults if I'm every going to stop comparing. And then there's the MQA and ultra hi-res features, which make it even harder to concentrate on this goal.

But again, these are nice problems to have. What an amazingly feature-packed little unit! One thing I can already say definitively is that it's a very good value for the money.

[Samuel T Cogley]

Been looking at this product with interest and this thread and a very similar thread with some of the same principals over at Head-Fi.

 

This product seems to be something like Unobtanium in the U.S.  Anyone have any info on when we will see one in the U.S. for something like the list price (~$410)?

 

Thanks in advance.

[left channel]

@Samuel T Cogley a local dealer here in California told me "late fall" and didn't have pricing yet. As you may have seen in my other posts, I purchased one from a German reseller on eBay for 370 Euros including shipping and etc. That's about 435 dollars. It arrived in less than one week.

[Samuel T Cogley]

18 minutes ago, left channel said:

@Samuel T Cogley a local dealer here in California told me "late fall" and didn't have pricing yet. As you may have seen in my other posts, I purchased one from a German reseller on eBay for 370 Euros including shipping and etc. That's about 435 dollars. It arrived in less than one week.

 

Thanks for this.  I've been watching both threads.  Can you provide an updated link for eBay?  I clicked on one of the links, and the price I saw was $1500.

[left channel]

13 minutes ago, Samuel T Cogley said:

 

Thanks for this.  I've been watching both threads.  Can you provide an updated link for eBay?  I clicked on one of the links, and the price I saw was $1500.

 

Wow! Thanks for checking. Either something went wrong with that German retailer's listings, or they've become incredibly greedy. Many distributors are confusing this box with another much more expensive Pro-Ject product, and I hope that's all that happened there.

I will ask them. Meanwhile here's the same thing from an Italian seller. The shipping price is unclear and I suspect they will not be as efficient and organized about sending it to you, but it's an option: black - silver

[arcman]

Purchase it here. I got mine in 6 days. Less than $300 with shipping (no Vat is $250 british pounds).

 

http://www.analogueseduction.net/pro-ject/pro-ject-pre-box-s2-digital.html

[arcman]

I hooked the Pro-Ject up as a preamp and removed my Peachtree Nova Pre. I'm living without my Oppo player due to lack of inputs. Anyway, I have the Bluesound Node 2 into the Coax and Apple TV into the Toslink. As a preamp, there seems to be a little wider soundstage over the peachtree. I would say the S2 is just a smidge on the bright side compared to the Peachtree (or the peachtree is on the warm side of neutral). I did feel I was getting very slight ear fatigue, however, that happens sometimes if I'm not rested. I switch the filter to slow rolloff and the fatigue seemed to vanish. I am quite sensitive to high frequencies. I can always tell if a TV is on in the house (no sound or picture) and have a hard time listening to music thru phone or computer speakers.

 

Of course the unit has only played a couple of hours, so things may change a bit. Out of the box, I could say I am quite happy and could live with it as a Preamp if the inputs were there. Even if I purchase a higher end dac in the future ($2000 +) I would still keep this one ion my system. 

[franz159]

5 minutes ago, arcman said:

I hooked the Pro-Ject up as a preamp and removed my Peachtree Nova Pre. I'm living without my Oppo player due to lack of inputs. Anyway, I have the Bluesound Node 2 into the Coax and Apple TV into the Toslink. As a preamp, there seems to be a little wider soundstage over the peachtree. I would say the S2 is just a smidge on the bright side compared to the Peachtree (or the peachtree is on the warm side of neutral). I did feel I was getting very slight ear fatigue, however, that happens sometimes if I'm not rested. I switch the filter to slow rolloff and the fatigue seemed to vanish. I am quite sensitive to high frequencies. I can always tell if a TV is on in the house (no sound or picture) and have a hard time listening to music thru phone or computer speakers.

 

Of course the unit has only played a couple of hours, so things may change a bit. Out of the box, I could say I am quite happy and could live with it as a Preamp if the inputs were there. Even if I purchase a higher end dac in the future ($2000 +) I would still keep this one ion my system. 

 

Still not clear to me how actually annoying are the pops and clicks upon master clock frequency changes....