Article: Introducing The Sonore Signature Rendu SE

[rickca]

2 hours ago, vortecjr said:

There is an offer planned for existing Sonore customers. I'll share the details here soon.

This will be interesting.  Many existing Sonore customers just got either an ultraRendu or a microRendu clock upgrade.

[Al Jones]

I've got an Ultra on the way and a micro headed the other way for the upgrade. A price indication would be useful at this point.

[barrows]

3 hours ago, ted_b said:

Barrows, not to be argumentative, but I gotta assume the vast majority here "want the best"; it's an affordability issue, not a want issue. 

Hey Ted, no worries man!  I get what you are saying.  Perhaps i would have been better saying: "...it is for those who want the best, and are willing to pay for it."

 

Confused:  At this time there are no plans to offer an SPDIF version.  The SRse is designed to do one thing perfectly, provide the best possible USB feed for USB DACs, adding additional features would only raise the price, and perhaps compromise its purpose.  I suppose you are familiar with the phrase: "jack of all trades, master of none", the SRse is a "master" at rendering a super high quality USB feed from Ethernet, without sample rate limitations.  If you need a SPDIF feed, i would suggest looking for the previous model Signature Rendu, which did have SPDIF output (but no USB) on the used market.  The discontinued Signature Rendu is a superb SPDIF source.

 

Guys:  I am to sure why pricing is not mentioned here.  Please contact Sonore directly and you will be able to find out the price, as it is set now.  The SRse should be available now, or very, very soon.

[Confused]

30 minutes ago, barrows said:

Confused:  At this time there are no plans to offer an SPDIF version.  The SRse is designed to do one thing perfectly, provide the best possible USB feed for USB DACs, adding additional features would only raise the price, and perhaps compromise its purpose.  I suppose you are familiar with the phrase: "jack of all trades, master of none", the SRse is a "master" at rendering a super high quality USB feed from Ethernet, without sample rate limitations.  If you need a SPDIF feed, i would suggest looking for the previous model Signature Rendu, which did have SPDIF output (but no USB) on the used market.  The discontinued Signature Rendu is a superb SPDIF source.

Thanks for the quick response, and yes, I fully expected the USB only response, but the thought was in my head so I just had to ask!  As it happens, I already have my preferred XLR/AES3 output from a microRendu, thanks to adding a Mutec MC3+USB to the chain that is.  This combination works superbly and I'm guessing would be a match for the 'old' Signature Rendu, but maybe not, who knows?.  (I'm guessing nobody could answer this one for sure?)  I could add the SE to the Mutec, or an ultraRendu, then add a REF10 to the Mutec.....    Too many options!

 

Anyway, I do not wish to take this one too far off topic, question answered with perfect clarity, for which I thank you!

 

That said, I will be keeping my eye on the SE, I think a source to feed a Mutec MC3+USB, it could be ideal.

[LarryMagoo]

Hey Confused,

 

I use a different approach using a Audiobyte Hydra Z DDC between my 12 VDC Mac Mini and Yggy DAC.   How would the SE work with the Mutec?

[Confused]

1 hour ago, LarryMagoo said:

Hey Confused,

 

I use a different approach using a Audiobyte Hydra Z DDC between my 12 VDC Mac Mini and Yggy DAC.   How would the SE work with the Mutec?

In my case, PC, Ethernet, SE, USB to Mutec MC3+USB, XLR/AES3 to DAC (Devialet).  So not so different to your Mac Mini to Audiobyte DCC in some respects.

 

Which all goes to show, the SE might be a 'purist' USB solution, but maybe it can be used to good effect in many other ways & set-ups.

[Deyorew]

I know this is about Sonore, but that McIntosh D1100 Preamp/DAC is the eye candy in the shot. Any first impressions of that bad boy? Planning on doing a review? or is that your personal acquisition? Tell us more, Never thought I would see McIntosh featured this prominently on this site!

[The Computer Audiophile]

3 minutes ago, Deyorew said:

I know this is about Sonore, but that McIntosh D1100 Preamp/DAC is the eye candy in the shot. Any first impressions of that bad boy? Planning on doing a review? or is that your personal acquisition? Tell us more, Never thought I would see McIntosh featured this prominently on this site!

Review coming late this week or early next week.

[Confused]

8 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Review coming late this week or early next week.

Just post plenty of pictures of the thing.  It hardly needs words with looks like that!

[Deyorew]

Would also love honest comments on sound quality and value instead of in depth functionality.

[barrows]

All I can say regarding sound quality of the SRse is the following:

 

Understanding the technical nature of the improvements (over the microRendu v. 1.4 and Sonore Signature Power Supply combo) I expected audible improvements.  But, I was not ready for this level of improvement.  I would describe the nature of the sonic improvement as being similar to that of going from a good server set-up to a good microRendu setup:  Bigger Soundstage (wider and deeper) with no loss of precision imaging, again better low level detail retrieval (actual new details emerging at very low levels, bows hitting instruments, toes tapping floors etc)  Better detail on reverb tails and subtle harmonic structure on decay trails (it somewhat astonishes me how much amplifier noise buzz/humm/hiss is in even very good recordings of electric music now that it is revealed like this).  And better ambience retrieval.  As far as I can tell, tonally, nothing appears to have changed in terms of balance, just more precision.

As far as the delta of these differences i will not comment further, as the magnitude of the differences will be system specific: the better low level resolution a system has the bigger the differences will be.

 

Additionally: because of these differences, I have been inspired to go on a USB cable quest to make sure I am not missing out on anything else!

 

OK, so i work with Sonore, obviously people are going to wait to hear some independent observations, as it should be.  But I am an audiophile first, before I ever worked in the industry.

[firedog]

Still waiting to see the price to see if it is something I'll consider. 

Would love to see someone do a head to head comparison of the SigRendu vs the dCS bridge (and yes, I know they aren't exact functional equivalents). 

[barrows]

4 minutes ago, firedog said:

Still waiting to see the price to see if it is something I'll consider. 

Would love to see someone do a head to head comparison of the SigRendu vs the dCS bridge (and yes, I know they aren't exact functional equivalents). 

As the dCS is SPDIF out, I am not sure how any valid comparison can be done, there are too many variables.  Only a comparison done with the same DAC you use will be valid at all (because some DACs will sound better with one input over the other), and still, quality of the SPDIF cable and USB cable will make for additional variables as well..

It is interesting to note that in his test of the dCS, Michael Lavorgna at Audiostream just barely preferred the dCS over the v 1.3 microRendu with the LPS-1, this was not even a v1.4 micro, and all reports I have heard of the LPS-1 vs. the Sonore Signature Supply have preferred the Sonore.  Michael was also using the TotalDAC, whose builder claims performs better with SPDIF.

On price, the Signature Rendu SE will be more affordable than the dCS.

[firedog]

1 minute ago, barrows said:

As the dCS is SPDIF out, I am not sure how any valid comparison can be done, there are too many variables.  Only a comparison done with the same DAC you use will be valid at all (because some DACs will sound better with one input over the other), and still, quality of the SPDIF cable and USB cable will make for additional variables as well..

It is interesting to note that in his test of the dCS, Michael Lavorgna at Audiostream just barely preferred the dCS over the v 1.3 microRendu with the LPS-1, this was not even a v1.4 micro, and all reports I have heard of the LPS-1 vs. the Sonore Signature Supply have preferred the Sonore.  Michael was also using the TotalDAC, whose builder claims performs better with SPDIF.

On price, the Signature Rendu SE will be more affordable than the dCS.

Possibly when dCS adds USB out capability to the Bridge, it will be possible to compare them more directly, at least with some DACs. 

[Mercman]

7 hours ago, barrows said:

As the dCS is SPDIF out, I am not sure how any valid comparison can be done, there are too many variables.  Only a comparison done with the same DAC you use will be valid at all (because some DACs will sound better with one input over the other), and still, quality of the SPDIF cable and USB cable will make for additional variables as well..

It is interesting to note that in his test of the dCS, Michael Lavorgna at Audiostream just barely preferred the dCS over the v 1.3 microRendu with the LPS-1, this was not even a v1.4 micro, and all reports I have heard of the LPS-1 vs. the Sonore Signature Supply have preferred the Sonore.  Michael was also using the TotalDAC, whose builder claims performs better with SPDIF.

On price, the Signature Rendu SE will be more affordable than the dCS.

 

I have both the Signature Power Supply and the LPS-1.  I have found the Signature to be the better sounding power supply; not that the LPS-1 is all that bad!

[firedog]

8 hours ago, barrows said:

As the dCS is SPDIF out, I am not sure how any valid comparison can be done, there are too many variables.  Only a comparison done with the same DAC you use will be valid at all (because some DACs will sound better with one input over the other), and still, quality of the SPDIF cable and USB cable will make for additional variables as well..

It is interesting to note that in his test of the dCS, Michael Lavorgna at Audiostream just barely preferred the dCS over the v 1.3 microRendu with the LPS-1, this was not even a v1.4 micro, and all reports I have heard of the LPS-1 vs. the Sonore Signature Supply have preferred the Sonore.  Michael was also using the TotalDAC, whose builder claims performs better with SPDIF.

On price, the Signature Rendu SE will be more affordable than the dCS.

The way I read the article he preferred the dCS bridge by quite a lot. He was very enthusiastic and favorably compared the Bridge to the 16k SG server-said it was just as good. Look at his review of the SG server and you will see what I mean.

In any case, I'd like to see a few different comparisons of the Sig Rendu SE vs the dCS bridge. I think it would tell us something.

[Confused]

I need to tread carefully with this post, I do understand that Sonore are typically not that keen on forum members trying to redesign products with personal wish lists etc.  (which I can understand)  However, something did occur to me.  The SE is aimed at being a 'best of the best' product in what we might broadly call the Ethernet to USB end point category.  Good stuff.  Without being too specific, we can then have a quick look at the 'competition'.  Now in other parts of this forum, the current hot topic amongst the 'sound quality' seekers is clocking, clock chains and similar.  It strikes me that the Signature SE with it's super clean power and larger case size would be absolutely perfect for the provision of a word clock or 10MHz reference input.  Indeed, this could be optional at extra cost or something for a later model.  As for the 'competition', they are already there.  Just a thought!  Although to be clear, if such an SE + clock option device existed, I would almost certainly buy one.

[stevebythebay]

15 hours ago, barrows said:

All I can say regarding sound quality of the SRse is the following:

 

Understanding the technical nature of the improvements (over the microRendu v. 1.4 and Sonore Signature Power Supply combo) I expected audible improvements.  But, I was not ready for this level of improvement.  I would describe the nature of the sonic improvement as being similar to that of going from a good server set-up to a good microRendu setup:  Bigger Soundstage (wider and deeper) with no loss of precision imaging, again better low level detail retrieval (actual new details emerging at very low levels, bows hitting instruments, toes tapping floors etc)  Better detail on reverb tails and subtle harmonic structure on decay trails (it somewhat astonishes me how much amplifier noise buzz/humm/hiss is in even very good recordings of electric music now that it is revealed like this).  And better ambience retrieval.  As far as I can tell, tonally, nothing appears to have changed in terms of balance, just more precision.

As far as the delta of these differences i will not comment further, as the magnitude of the differences will be system specific: the better low level resolution a system has the bigger the differences will be.

 

Additionally: because of these differences, I have been inspired to go on a USB cable quest to make sure I am not missing out on anything else!

 

OK, so i work with Sonore, obviously people are going to wait to hear some independent observations, as it should be.  But I am an audiophile first, before I ever worked in the industry.

 

I think you're wise to search out a great USB cable.  When I first put the microRendu in my primary system, I tried the hard connector and then a few others, including the Curious.  I'd been avoiding the use of a longer cable length than .5M but when I tried my Synergistic Research Galileo active USB cable there was no longer a contest.  It clobbered the others, despite its 2M length.  Now it resides, along with the microRendu / Senore Sig. LPS, in my upstairs video system, feeding an Audio Alchemy DDP-1.  This system is nowhere as fine as the downstairs audio system (since it has Revel Salons, Theta Intrepid 5-way amp, Anthem D2V processor) but still a nice overall system.  I'm expecting some improvement when I get back my other microRendu with the 1.4 update.  And if warranted, I'd certainly want to entertain the newest integrated offering with a return of the the microRendu and Sig. LPS, especially if it can deliver a notable sonic improvement.

[barrows]

1 hour ago, Confused said:

I need to tread carefully with this post, I do understand that Sonore are typically not that keen on forum members trying to redesign products with personal wish lists etc.  (which I can understand)  However, something did occur to me.  The SE is aimed at being a 'best of the best' product in what we might broadly call the Ethernet to USB end point category.  Good stuff.  Without being too specific, we can then have a quick look at the 'competition'.  Now in other parts of this forum, the current hot topic amongst the 'sound quality' seekers is clocking, clock chains and similar.  It strikes me that the Signature SE with it's super clean power and larger case size would be absolutely perfect for the provision of a word clock or 10MHz reference input.  Indeed, this could be optional at extra cost or something for a later model.  As for the 'competition', they are already there.  Just a thought!  Although to be clear, if such an SE + clock option device existed, I would almost certainly buy one.

I would say: nonsense to this!  External clocking is never better than the same clock properly implemented locally.  External clocking only makes sense in the studio environment where often multiple devices must be clock synched.

Clock distribution over wires adds jitter, there is no way around this.  For shame to companies who use a poor onboard clock in their DACs, only to offer external clock boxes as an "upgrade", as they would get better performance if they incorporated the better clock internally.

 

Additionally, because this unit is not SPDIF out, it does not have "word clock" or "master clock" or "bit clock", those are only for digital audio streams and not Ethernet or USB audio.

 

But, of course we do use a very low phase noise clock (with "femto" jitter levels, but hate that term myself) for all processor/USB clocking, and this single oscillator is powered by its own dedicated ultra low noise regulation stage-so we are paying very close attention to have an optimized clock.

[DavidL]

Chris I remember well reading your review of the original Signature Rendu (ethernet-to-SPDIF). I guess that box is long gone but I'd be interested in any comparison comments you can make in your review of the new Signature Rendu. Being on the other side of the pond I still cannot understand the almost total preoccupation with USB for audio output in the USA, given all the known potential interference problems.

[The Computer Audiophile]

I still have a Rendu and Signature Rendu (both Ethernet to S/PDIF), in addition to the microRendu and Signature Series Rendu SE (both USB). Hopefully Jesus isn't reading this, because he has been asking for them back for ever :~)

 

It all comes down to pros and cons and usage with specific DACs. For many people the gains they get with USB far outweigh the cons. 

 

[barrows]

56 minutes ago, DavidL said:

Chris I remember well reading your review of the original Signature Rendu (ethernet-to-SPDIF). I guess that box is long gone but I'd be interested in any comparison comments you can make in your review of the new Signature Rendu. Being on the other side of the pond I still cannot understand the almost total preoccupation with USB for audio output in the USA, given all the known potential interference problems.

From a technical perspective, async USB audio has the potential to outperform SPDIF precisely because of the clock distribution problem mentioned a few posts earlier.  With Async USB, the audio clock can be generated in the DAC, close to the actual D/A conversion stage, where it belongs.  Now it has taken awhile for some companies to figure out how to implement async USB properly, but let us remember that it is a relatively new interface.  I am confident now that when properly implemented, async USB outperforms the SPDIF interface in every way.  It does with my gear.

[k-man]

8 hours ago, firedog said:

The way I read the article he preferred the dCS bridge by quite a lot. He was very enthusiastic and favorably compared the Bridge to the 16k SG server-said it was just as good. Look at his review of the SG server and you will see what I mean.

In any case, I'd like to see a few different comparisons of the Sig Rendu SE vs the dCS bridge. I think it would tell us something.

You read that well, considering the dCS Bridge is now living permanently in his system.

[agentsmith]

I like the dCS approach of just offering the best, and provide gradual updates and improvements via firmware.  That was my experience with the Debussy DAC, which after so many years, is still current is being improved with new features via firmware.  Their products give me assurance that their designs are well thought out and done right the first time.

 

Comparatively, the captioned product went from best, to best'er to even best'er in a matter of months.  It does not give me assurance that they will offer something that will be "day and night" better 2 months from now.

[firedog]

27 minutes ago, agentsmith said:

Comparatively, the captioned product went from best, to best'er to even best'er in a matter of months.  It does not give me assurance that they will offer something that will be "day and night" better 2 months from now.

I understand your point, but it isn't quite accurate.

Sonore didn't introduce 3 updates to the same product. They've built a product line of 4 players, from $299-$2900 that are essentially identical functionally, and let the user how high up the ladder of audiophilia he wishes to go. Did you notice that you can buy the Sig and a couple of the other Sonore devices for the price of the dCs Bridge?

 

Note also that since the signature came out immediately after the ultra, they've offered a 100% trade in for any ultra buyer that wants to upgrade to the Sig.