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More Disruptive Schiit (Vidar)


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On 2/27/2018 at 4:30 AM, TheDotProd said:

Same here!

 

I bought a Vidar from Addicted to Audio in Melbourne to use with my ls50, replacing a NAD D3020 which was dead silent.

 

 

 

 

I have a Kef ls50 with NAD D3020, but consider upgrading to the Schiit Vidar. Besides, the issue with humming, would you please give your impression upgrade.. how does it sounds and is it worth the upgrade?

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On 04/03/2018 at 12:03 PM, jadeboy said:

 

I have a Kef ls50 with NAD D3020, but consider upgrading to the Schiit Vidar. Besides, the issue with humming, would you please give your impression upgrade.. how does it sounds and is it worth the upgrade?

 

I noticed much more clarity and deeper bass at all volume levels.

Others would use more lyrical descriptions or talk about a wider soundstage. 

But what I think is really happening is that the Vidar is powerfull enough to push the ls50 drivers with enough force and precision to accurately reproduce the source input.

 

I would definitely upgrade to a better amp from the d3020 before adding a subwoofer.

 

The d3020 has an amazing usability and feature set, but the amplification is probably it's weakest asset. 

 

Once you upgrade or demo some other more powerful amps you will notice that the d3020 has an everpresent warm fog sitting over the source material. Going to a beffier amp will likely clear this fog, in some ways making it seem like there is less bass, but when something bassy happens in the track you will likely notice how much deeper, and more authoritive it is. So the more powerful amps aren't lacking in any bass, but the d3020 kinda flubbs it's way through a lot of passages not able to track the source material and emmiting mildly pleasant bassy glow to fill in what it can't achieve.

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2 hours ago, TheDotProd said:

 

I noticed much more clarity and deeper bass at all volume levels.

Others would use more lyrical descriptions or talk about a wider soundstage. 

But what I think is really happening is that the Vidar is powerfull enough to push the ls50 drivers with enough force and precision to accurately reproduce the source input.

 

I would definitely upgrade to a better amp from the d3020 before adding a subwoofer.

 

The d3020 has an amazing usability and feature set, but the amplification is probably it's weakest asset. 

 

Once you upgrade or demo some other more powerful amps you will notice that the d3020 has an everpresent warm fog sitting over the source material. Going to a beffier amp will likely clear this fog, in some ways making it seem like there is less bass, but when something bassy happens in the track you will likely notice how much deeper, and more authoritive it is. So the more powerful amps aren't lacking in any bass, but the d3020 kinda flubbs it's way through a lot of passages not able to track the source material and emmiting mildly pleasant bassy glow to fill in what it can't achieve.

 

Even a moderately decent class A/B like the Vidar is going to destroy a cheap class D like the d3020.

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2 hours ago, TheDotProd said:

 

I noticed much more clarity and deeper bass at all volume levels.

Others would use more lyrical descriptions or talk about a wider soundstage. 

But what I think is really happening is that the Vidar is powerfull enough to push the ls50 drivers with enough force and precision to accurately reproduce the source input.

 

I would definitely upgrade to a better amp from the d3020 before adding a subwoofer.

 

The d3020 has an amazing usability and feature set, but the amplification is probably it's weakest asset. 

 

Once you upgrade or demo some other more powerful amps you will notice that the d3020 has an everpresent warm fog sitting over the source material. Going to a beffier amp will likely clear this fog, in some ways making it seem like there is less bass, but when something bassy happens in the track you will likely notice how much deeper, and more authoritive it is. So the more powerful amps aren't lacking in any bass, but the d3020 kinda flubbs it's way through a lot of passages not able to track the source material and emmiting mildly pleasant bassy glow to fill in what it can't achieve.

 

Thanks, that was helpful.

 

I am currently using a kef sub with the ls50. The Vidar does not have a sub out.. but I have solution for that..

 

My biggest issue with the Vidar is the lack of 12 volts trigger which the 3020 has. But I have a solution for that too.. I plan on using a 'lot relay' connected to my computer (also connected to a Chord Mojo DAC) to determine when to turn the amp on/off. The only concern would be the warm up time for the amp and how durable the Vidar would be with thousands of on/off - good that it has the 5 years warranty. 

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 3/6/2018 at 7:20 PM, jadeboy said:

 

Thanks, that was helpful.

 

I am currently using a kef sub with the ls50. The Vidar does not have a sub out.. but I have solution for that..

 

5

 

Well, I have used the Schiit Vidar on the Kef LS 50 for about 3 hours.

 

In comparison to the NAD 3020D, the Vidar:

 

Bass is much tighter 

Soundstage is a lot larger

Overall the sound is just clearer and richer on every level.

 

The only negatives I can see... the sound is "brighter" than the NAD 3020D, but that could be fixed with more break-in time... and the lack of 12 volts trigger.

 

The Schiit Vidar is well worth the money and customer service is very responsive. 

 

System Setup

 

Computer:

Foobar Player -> Chord Mojo -> Schiit Vidar -> Kef LS 50.

 

Speaker Cable:  QED XT-400

 

Interconnect: AudioQuest - Big Sur Audio 3.5mm to RCA Cable

 

Power (use to trigger power for the Schiit Vidar since it does not have 12 Volts trigger):

Computer -> Customized software to detect music player (foobar, windows sound) -> Arduino Uno -> Iot Relay - Enclosed High-power Power Relay -> Schiit Vidar. 

 

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  • 2 weeks later...

Hello, new member and new schiit gear owner here. I wanted to ask if there are any news regarding the hum/buzz of the vidar? Unfortunately I'm having the same problem. A buzz coming directly out of the unit. Saga too creates a buzz as soon connected to vidar, but I did reduce it to a minimum. Hardly audiable from the speakers. What bothers me is that "mecanical" buzz which comes out of vidar. So did anybody find a solution?

 

Sending back is the last option as I live in europe.

 

Many thanks!

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Ah, my fault for thinking you referring to going direct from DAC to amp. 

 

If trying it in an outlet on a different circuit doesn't help you can try a different location altogether.  That thread I linked to should cover a good in depth process of elimination for troubleshooting.  

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I think I should specify the problem. There seem to be 2 different kind of noises. The one which bothers me more is the one coming out of Vidar itself. Just by putting a hand over those ventilation holes on top, the buzz is hardly audiable anymore. And, the buzz is there even without any inputs or speakers wired. It clearly comes from the inside. Wheter it's because of DC or more of a mechanical problem, I can't tell. I would guess a mechanical issue. I checked the screws on the bottom, but they are tight. I might check those on the inside, but I'm still waiting for a 2nd response from schiit before opening it. 

 

The second buzz is more of a typical one coming out of the speakers. Like a ground loop. This buzz is hardly audiable when only Vidar is connected to the speakers. It gets louder when I switch on Saga/Loki, but I need to get close to the speakers. So I could live with it and I think I will be able to eliminate it sooner or later. I reduced it already just by changing the order of the different units. Btw, no dimmers nearby, lamps are off. 

 

It's the 1st one which I fear I won't get rid of. It's a constant noise which doesn't get louder by increasing the volume. I tried it in different rooms with different cords, still there. It strongly reminds me of a fridge, not quite as loud though. But as you can imagine, buzz Nr. 1 and buzz Nr. 2 combined are a pain in the.....ears. 

 

I might try it in another place when I get the chance. But for the moment, not a clue what else to try. What happened to the other members in this forum who had this problem?

 

And thanks for your help. Very appreciated!

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3 hours ago, Corvo said:

Hello, new member and new schiit gear owner here. I wanted to ask if there are any news regarding the hum/buzz of the vidar? Unfortunately I'm having the same problem. A buzz coming directly out of the unit. Saga too creates a buzz as soon connected to vidar, but I did reduce it to a minimum. Hardly audiable from the speakers. What bothers me is that "mecanical" buzz which comes out of vidar. So did anybody find a solution?

 

Sending back is the last option as I live in europe.

 

Many thanks!

Since the buzz is coming out of the Vidar unit itself, and not your speakers (I assume that's what you're saying), then the problem is most assuredly the power transformer being loose. I have a Krell amp that did that from the factory. I took the top off and found that the amp had a torridial wound power transformer that was held to the bottom plate on the case with a single screw and a big washer through the middle (like the hole in a doughnut). The transformer had worked loose in transit and was vibrating the Krells case. I put a wrench on the nut on the bottom of the case to hold it, and the used a screwdriver to tighten-down the transformer, and It's never happened again. I'd give that a look, were I you. Since it's mechanical, it won't require any electronics skill to ascertain whether the transformer is making that racket or not, and minimal tool skills to correct it. There certainly isn't much else in the package that can "buzz". 

George

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If you place your hand over the metal it stops the buzz, the problem is either loose laminations in the transformer or the mounting itself.

There are , looks like 4 x 1/4 in ,bolts holding the transformer in place. Ask Schiit what ft lb these can be tightened to and carry out with a torque wrench. Very possible these become loose in transit. If there’s no shake proof washer, then by all means add them in to avoid opening the cover in the future for the same issue.

 

if the problem still occurs, Mapleshade have lovely brass weights which kill vibrations not only from the transformer but ‘other’ undesirable elements.

AS Profile Equipment List        Say NO to MQA

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Thanks gmgraves. You're right, that was what I meant. I still have that lightly buzz out of the speakers, but that will be fixed, I'm sure.

 

You're experience with the Krell is exactly what I am hoping for me and what I read on other boards. So I will give that a try these days. From the pictures on the shiit site, the transformer is hold by 4 nuts on the inside, so there's a good amount of chances, that one of those got loose. The amp was shipped from the US to europe, so quite a long way...

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Thanks to you too, One

 

Actually the hand on top only stops (well, makes it less louder) the audiable buzz as the ventilation holes are closed when I do so. Out of the holes is where the noise is loudest, but I don't think it's where it happens. I will see!

 

thanks again!

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Hello Corvo, I'm also a new member - joined specifically to respond to your post.

Your experience with Saga/Vidar sounds similar to my own.

Having not had problems with hum or buzz previously (the Schiit duo replaced an aging NAD 7020 receiver), I went through the exercise of changing speaker cable (Supra Classic 4 to zip cord), interconnects (Apature to geric) and power outlets to no avail - and so emailed Schiit for guidance (Jason replied directly).

Saga and Vidar were returned to the local distributor for testing.

In their listening room the system was totally silent - no hum, no transformer buzz (over the review period anyway...)

Other issues such as popping noises (on switching inputs on Saga or muting with Saga in active mode) were also absent.

Checking out my domestic power outlets with a simple AVO meter indicated local AC voltages tended to be rather high, fluctuating between 240-259 volts. My local supply company (U.E.) were not inclined to do anything about this (a discussion for another time...).

A little research brought up an article by Ben Duncan (a name well known to "older" HiFi News readers), who discusses this issue in the context of transformer specification and problems that may arise due to differences in mains power frequency and voltages across the world (see https://www.soundonsound.com/techniques/identifying-solving-mains-supply-problems ). Worth a read.

 

Having noted the hum coming through the speakers did not necessarily coincide with a cycle of transformer buzzing (i.e. ? ground loop), I found hum through the speakers largely disappeared on lifting the mains ground for either Saga or Vidar.

(Changing cables, cable orientation and amplifier orientation and spacing had little to no effect...)

Not happy to leave either ungrounded, and since there is nothing like the Hum X available for the Australian market, I built a ground loop isolator per Rod Elliot's article ( http://sound.whsites.net/earthing.htm ).

Not only did this resolve the hum through the speakers, but Vidar ran very much cooler.

 

Vidar transformer buzz, however, remains - sometimes totally absent, other times so loud and distracting I just have to switch the system off.

I have found I can modulate the buzz by placing my hand on the chassis - or reduce the level of buzz significantly by lifting the front of Vidar off the supporting surface.

While I'm tempted to adjust the tension of the transformer mounting bolts and check chassis clearance (warranty?), I believe the variance and cycling of the transformer noise tends to point more toward an electronic issue - perhaps external to the amp.

While the transformer issues mentioned in Ben Duncan's article are a possibility, the presence of DC on the mains supply can also cause transformers (particularly toroidals - but also other designs) to buzz.

Mains power DC blocking circuitry is evident in power amplifiers produced by a number of manufacturers (e.g. Bryston, LAMM) and a number of individuals and smaller companies are producing "after market" boards and boxes (Google "mains DC blocker").

As far as I can tell from Schiit's photographs, Vidar may not have such mains DC blocking circuitry - and I thought this may be worth investigating.

Again, Rod Elliot has written on this subject - not only from the point of investigating the issue, but also with a view to clarifying misunderstandings re such circuits in the DIY community (see: http://sound.whsites.net/articles/xfmr-dc.htm ), and I am currently putting together a circuit per (the much copied by others) Figure 8 from this paper.

This is dangerous stuff - electrocution and exploding electrolytic capacitors are real possibilities if you don't know what you are doing.

I am NOT encouraging anyone else to build such circuits.

Having said that, I have hopes - I would be sad to see Vidar go (great bass!).

 

Cheers

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Hi Jitae, many thanks for your very interesting post. As I live in europe and don't plan to return vidar to the US for warranty reasons. So I opened the amp to check the screws on the inside. 3 out of 4 screws where a bit loose, which gave me hope. I tightened them and put the cover back on. But the noise was still there. Only thing I noticed was, that now I don't have to close the ventilation holes to reduce the buzz, but by just placing my hand or a finger on a specific point on top of the amp, the higher frequency of the buzz disappears. So it's obvious, that the transformer passes on the vibrations to the chassis. Note, that there still is a certain transformer buzz, but that high frequency buzz, which is the most annoying one, is gone. Or isn't, because I can't leave my hand on it. And that's not what I paid for anyway. But I think that if I'm able to modify the mount of the transformer, the buzz could be reduced to be at least acceptable. Anyway, it seems, that your experience is almost the same as mine. 

 

So this leads me to the following options: I will try the amp at another location to check if there is something wrong with my circuit in the house. If the noise still exists, I either have to buy an (expensive) DC blocker or I modify the mount of the transformer (rubber or silicon underneath) and adjust the placement of the amp to reduce the noise to a certain degree, which can be described as a normal transformer hum. Either way, it's not satisfying at all. 

 

@GUTB

You're right, it isn't. But for hum out of the speakers there can be dozens of reasons. I did reduce the buzz out of the speakers twice: first I replaced some cheap interconnects with better ones and second I changed the order of the schiit-units. This did help. Especially the placement of Loki seemed to be the problem. So now from my sitting place I hardly hear any noise out of the speakers. But it's there, I can't deny it. Next will be a better tube. Anyway, I agree with you, that there seems to be a design or quality problem with schiit. Unfortunately I have to say, because I still think the products would be worth buying for the sonic quality they offer. And for the look and the price. On the other hand, I had at least 10 different amps over the past 10 years. And never did I run into such problems. Even the cheapest ones were dead silent. I agree with jitae, I would be sad to see vidar go...

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Little update: Buzz still there. But I managed to reduce it a bit by putting a soft pad underneath and the modi dac on top of it. I still hear it from my sitting place, but it's better. 

 

Next step will be to modify the case a bit. So here is my question: I plan to put a small silicone line or rubber between the case and the top cover. I hope to reduce the vibrations doing this when the 2 metal parts have no direct contact anymore. I'm also thinking about to put the same thing between the screws on the bottom and the case in order to uncouple the bottom from the screws. Maybe same thing on the inside screws. So does anybody know, if this is safe regarding the grounding of the device? I have to confess, that I am not familiar at all with current, so I want to avoid any dangerous modifications.

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If an amp is buzzing so loud that it’s annoying a few meters from it, just imaging how much its transformers must vibrate to make that sound. Now think about the effect those vibration will have on the performance of other components, like transistors and capacitors inside the amp.

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Basically I agree with you. But from what I heard, devices from the US often buzz more than others when plugged in in europe. But yes, it's not the way it should be. That was the risk I took. Still happy with sound, look and price. So if it's a matter of only a few mods, I can live with it.

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