Experience with power conditioners?

[gmgraves]

On 7/15/2017 at 0:37 PM, Ralf11 said:

several people on here have bought used line transformers - not sure what to tell you to use for search terms

That's what I have. It's a big medical equipment transformer, weighs about 60 pounds (27 Kilos). Each huge end bell contains oil-filled capacitors. The secondary side end bell has a medical-grade mains receptacle on it with two plugs. NOTHING other than 60 Hz 120 Volt AC mains gets through it. The primary, viewed with an o'scope might look nasty, with all kinds of switching spikes, and line noise riding on it, but the secondary is as clean as a new penny. No spikes, no switching noise, no line noise, just a pure 60 Hz sine wave. And yes, you can hear the difference! Expensive line cords as big as a newborn baby's leg and costing thousands of dollars might be mouse milk, but believe me a big medical grade isolation transformer is for real! I bought mine, after looking longingly at it for years in a surplus electronics shop. When said shop was going out of business, I paid them one last visit. They had a US$175 price tag on it which is why it never sold in all those years. The last time I was in the shop, there was a big sign over the counter: "Everything must go - no reasonable offer refused!" I went back, picked up the transformer and plopped it on the counter. "Fifty Bucks!", I said. "Sixty", said the proprietor. "Done!" said I, pulling out my wallet. Best $60 I've ever spent (on audio, that is!). 

[gmgraves]

3 hours ago, Ralf11 said:

George - you can hear the difference - can you describe it?

 

also, curious about music chosen (I'll guess there was little involving wah-wha pedals) and on your system in general...

 

Essentially, the same questions for both you gentlemen, or others.

 

Yeah, I can describe it. It's not something you notice when you don't have clean power, but it is something that you notice the LACK OF when you do have clean power. IOW, I never realized that my system had this graininess to the upper midrange and treble region until it was gone. That's the best way to describe it, a coarseness in these regions that is kind of the aural equivalent of emulsion grain in a 35mm photograph, especially one that has been enlarged to 8 X 10. It's something that most people would likely never notice until they saw the same scene shot with an 8 X 10 view camera. Then they would notice the grain in a 35mm print instantly. On top of noticing the grain in the 35mm print, they would never be able to look at that print again without seeing the grain immediately! That's the way my system sounds with and without the transformer in the mains circuit. I.E., I never noticed the grain before I installed the transformer, now I hear it instantly when the transformer is not in the system.

[gmgraves]

7 hours ago, Ralf11 said:

George - can you describe your system?

 

I am esp. curious if these benefits occur in all-analog system... (to see if some new Schiit might solve the problem at lower cost and size if it is only a digital issue).

 

OK. System #1, the one with the transformer: Harman-Kardon HK 990 Dual Mono Integrated amp, J. A, Michelle Gyro SE Turntable (with DC motor upgrade) and Jelco 750 tone-arm with Grado Reference V2 Statement Cartridge. Martin Logan Vista ESL speakers and dual Aethena P1 Subwoofers. Sony XA777ES SACD player, Otari DTR-8S DAT recorder, Schiit Yggdrasil DAC, Otari MX-5050 reel-to-reel. Logitech Squeezebox Touch music client. 

[gmgraves]

3 hours ago, cjf said:

I've used a Torus Power RM20 Iso Transformer for about a year on my amps only. It worked well on lower current draw amps but when I changed amps to something much hungrier for power I noticed a bit of chubbiness to the bass. If I weren't so picky about bass performance I probably wouldn't have even noticed the Torus's presence in my system (which is a good thing..IMO). I think the ideal unit is one that gets completely out of the way and only gets rid of the bad stuff on the power line in addition to protecting your equipment. Such a unit is pretty much a Unicorn these days.

 

I'm now just going straight into a dedicated 20A outlet for the new amps and things sound better. Both mono blocks are sharing the same 20A outlet.

 

I think things change a bit though when you look at front end components. My Shunyata Denali 6000T was an eye opener when I installed it for my front end gear. Def much better sounding then going straight into the wall for that gear.

 

I may try another Denali for use with my amps given the very positive outcome I experienced with using one on the front end gear. My biggest concern is not currently having any surge protection for the amps despite them sounding better being straight into the wall then they did when plugged into the Torus.

 

I guess at some point a sacrifice will need to be made, sleep better at night knowing there is some form of surge protection in the chain or roll the dice and continue enjoying the sound offered by unrestricted current flow to the amps while keeping fingers crossed.

 

I suspect that your RM-20 is too small for the job of powering your amps. Try a larger one.

[gmgraves]

1 hour ago, Ralf11 said:

Thx - does the power conditioner affect SQ on analog as well as digital?

 

Since you refuse (for some reason) to quote the post to which you are responding, I can only guess that thi is meant for me. I don't know that power conditioners affect digital at all. I do know that amps and pre-amps sound better with clean mains power.

[gmgraves]

26 minutes ago, kennyb123 said:

 

I'd encourage you to read the FAQ at Shunyata:  http://www.shunyata.com/index.php/support/faqs.  In particular take note of their emphasis on what they term DTCD (Dynamic Transient Current Delivery).  Shunyata places an emphasis on not restricting DTCD over reducing noise. This seems to me to be the right approach. Speaking for myself - transient performance makes all the difference in the world when it comes to making music sound "live'.

 

Regenerators are simply power amplifiers.  Dynamic transient current delivery will be limited by how well the regenerator can itself respond to transients.  I know the PS Audio regenerators have a loyal following, but I'd be reluctant to want to put anything in front of my components that might impede their ability to draw current instantaneously.  

 

The most astonishing thing to me about the Shunyata Denali was that it improved dynamics over the high-end power strip I has been using (Quantum QBase).  It seems counterintuitive that passing current though a conditioner could actually improve dynamics, doesn't it?  But clearly some dynamic compression had been occurring as a result of feeding my system through that single high-end power strip.  I think once one hears how well their system responds when instantaneous current is minimally impeded, it becomes difficult to recommend taking any steps that might harm that. 

 

Shunyata's FAQs are more like FAiry tales than they are like FAQs. DTCD is marketing hype and means nothing. A components ability to provide enough current to provide proper transient response is the responsibility of that component's power supply. If the component's power supply is inadequate to provide the required instantaneous current for good transient response or, if the component's analog circuitry hasn't the slew rate to provide for good transient response, then all the power conditioning in the world is not going help. Most modern amps and preamps have slew-rates in the area of >10 volts/µsecond. That is plenty high enough to take care of any transients in the audio passband, no matter how fast they are.

 

Shunyata "Research" sell mouse milk and snake oil. You'd do well to steer clear.

[gmgraves]

2 hours ago, Speedskater said:

Shunyata DTCD is the opposite of a power conditioner's line filter. Excessive high frequency response is not something that you want in an AC power system, all that;s up there is noise & interference. Plus it doesn't work, it's something like putting a few large links in a long chain, it doesn't make the chain any stronger.

 

Exactly!

[gmgraves]

2 hours ago, kennyb123 said:

 

It is true that many components have the ability to adequately handle transients in the audio passband.  Shunyata's point is simply that one should be careful not to impede that ability.  

 

Those reading this thread can decide for themselves who is making the more compelling case with respect to Shunyata:  me, who owns their products and is absolutely thrilled with them; or you, who has put forth an argumentum ad hominem.

 

I consider the guys at Shunyata - Grant and Caelin - two of the best the audio industry has to offer.  They are generous with their time, willing to go out of their way to help both current and prospective customers, and offer fantastic products that offer an outstanding value relative to their competition.  

 

How, pray tell, is a power conditioner going to impede an amp or preamp's ability to adequately handle transients. The very job of a power conditioner is to not have any high-frequency capability. In a perfect world, a power conditioner would pass 50-60 Hz and no other frequency. That's how it cleans up the mains. It strips away switching transients, line noise and RF interference, by not letting them pass the conditioner. Shunyata Research is talking nonsense as per usual. These people aren't just charlatans, they are expensive charlatans. IOW, the P. T. Barnum of the audio world. W.C. Fields would be proud: "Never give a sucker an even break or smarten-up a chump!"

[gmgraves]

4 hours ago, kennyb123 said:

 

Tell us then how you would implement a power conditioner that passes only 60 Hz absolutely perfectly - with no reactive losses whatsoever.  I can't wait to hear this.

 

Now back to the real world, I've attached a photo of a well-regarded power conditioner.  How could forcing a component to draw power through this not impede instantaneous current delivery relative to drawing the current directly from the wall?  

 

 

And as a point of contrast, here's the inside of the Denali:

 

 

This is the Denali model I have:

 

 

Shunyata places no reactive components in the signal path.  So no reactive losses.

Did you not see where I said "...in a perfect world"?. Last time I looked, we don't live in one of those. Of course, no filter will pass only 50 - 60 Hz. That doesn't mean that such a filter isn't a desired goal. It just isn't an achievable one.  

 

None of that means anything. All your power supply in your amplifier circuits wants is 50-60 Hz at enough current to properly operate the amplifier. If the power conditioner doesn't supply enough current, it's too small for the job. It's that simple.

[gmgraves]

8 hours ago, kennyb123 said:

 

I would rephrase that: if the power conditioner doesn't provide sufficient current quickly enough, it could be sucking the life out of your music.

 

You seem to be avoiding any mention of the speed of power delivery.  Why is that?  Do you not think it's important for an amp to be able to respond instantly to meet the demands of the music?  Have you never heard how a system benefits when efforts are made to improve transient current delivery?  

 

I wouldn't re-phrase it. Current doesn't work that way. It's not the conditioner that needs to supply enough current fast enough, it's the design of the amp's DC power supply; in particular the filter capacitors that need to be able to supply the current "fast enough" to recover after a fast, high-power transient.

[gmgraves]

58 minutes ago, kennyb123 said:

 

Are you telling me that if I intentionally place a high impedance and highly reactive load between the amp's power supply and the wall outlet - this won't impact in any way the amp's ability to draw current quickly?

 

Yeah.. but why would you do that? But it shouldn't matter. A well designed amp will have huge filter caps in the power supply, and all the mains is doing is keeping them filled. A very crude analogy would be that of a trickle charger on a car battery. There's no way that the charger can supply enough current to light a headlight, much less turn the motor over, but the trickle charger can, over time, charge the car's battery enough that it can easily start the car, and run all the car's appliances. Why? Because you aren't relying on the charger to start the car, you are only relying on the charger to fill the reservoir. 

 

[gmgraves]

48 minutes ago, kennyb123 said:

 

First off, you've just acknowledged that placing a device between an amp and the wall outlet could impact the amp's ability to draw current quickly.  I used the extreme case just to get you to agree that it is possible - something you denied.

 

Secondly, there's really no point in me continuing from here.  You live in a world where everything is perfectly designed such that real world constraints don't exist.  

 

In your world:  

 

- amps can always perfectly draw current instantaneously - no matter what impedance is seen by the amp's power supply 

 

- power conditioners can't present an impedance to power supplies that can harm instantaneous current delivery in anyway

 

In my world neither of these are true. It's as if we live in different universes. I don't see how anything I've learned or experienced in my universe can apply in yours, so no point in continuing this.

 

I was wondering though if you could direct me to a portal that would allow me to move to your universe.  I could build a far better system in your universe as every component would work perfectly.  

First of all, I don't know where you get the idea that I "live in a world where everything is perfectly designed..." Secondly, I have neither stated nor implied that "amps can always draw current instantaneously - no matter what impedance is seen by the amp's power supply". What I did say was that in a properly designed amplifier, instantaneous current delivery from the mains is simply not all that important, but steady current delivery is all that important.

 

And I agree that this is a useless discussion. I am not interested in pursuing this.

[gmgraves]

On 7/21/2017 at 6:25 PM, cjf said:

Do you happen to have any measurements that you've done yourself your willing to share with the peanut gallery on this miracle $60 "Medical Grade" ISO Transformer?

 

Given all the mention of one only needing a properly built amplifier to begin with to avoid the need for such a power cleansing contraption we may be inclined to think your feeling the need to own one yourself is an admission of guilt that your own amp must not be properly designed like the rest of us poor slobs.

 

Do you really think this $60 ISO Transformer is as good as you think it is easily outclassing everything else on the market regardless of how much research,time and money was blown during the creation of its more established competitors products?

 

Please pass me whatever your smoking, I need to experience the same high

 

I haven't actually done any measurements, per se, but I have looked at the mains waveform at the wall and at the secondary side of the medical transformer using a Tektronix 465B 'scope, and any grunge visible on the mains waveform is absent on the secondary side. I don't remember saying that a properly built amplifiers don't need clean mains power, I said that an amplifier circuit with a properly designed power supply doesn't depend on a power conditioner to supply some mythical instantaneous current for the amp to maintain good transient response - a royally different thing.

 

Copper and good permeable iron are expensive. These consumer grade audio power conditioners from the likes of Shunyata Research are generally 1st or 2nd order LRC filters and don't use anywhere nearly as much copper or iron as does a large isolation transformer. Such transformers presents such a high impedance to high frequencies that they simply do not get across the primary/secondary boundary. Now, the power transformer in one's amplifier does have some attenuating properties to line noise, but it's nowhere as effective (and neither is a consumer-grade "snubbers") at cleaning-up line noise as is a big isolation transformer like mine.  

 

I was lucky. I saw the worth in that transformer I bought early oncnd was able to snag it at a great bargain price. I call it a medical-grade transformer because it has a medical grade dual receptacle on the secondary end bell casing. I really have no idea what it's original owner used it for. And to be clear, I don't just power my amps from this transformer, I power my entire system from it.

[gmgraves]

On 7/22/2017 at 10:42 AM, pam1975 said:

It's turned into a very interesting thread - didn't expect that but I learned a lot in the process.

I am indeed exploring the option of the isolation transformer, although being in EU I also learned that the mains tend to be cleaner.

And no, I will not spend $5k to $10k for clean power, way overkill for me...

 

That depends on where you are, I guess. My friend Sergio lives in Rome. He says that his mains is very noisy and he uses a mains filter. Another audiophile friend, Geoff, lives in Silicon Valley these days , but he used to live in London, He said that his mains was very dirty (and I've seen letters to the editor in several British Hi-Fi rags ask what they could do about the dirty mains supply. Also, keep in mind that while British receptacles are very robust and three pronged, most of mainland Europe uses a rather flimsy, two round-pronged receptacle without a ground connection.

[gmgraves]

On 7/22/2017 at 2:03 PM, Ralf11 said:

speaking of the OP...

 

here's my 1st ReStmt. of the questions:

 

1. is a power conditioner likely to add a significant bump in SQ?

 

I'd say that the best answer to that is two fold: 1) If you live in an urban environment; especially an older neighborhood, the cleanliness of your mains supply is highly suspect. If you live in small towns or out in the country, it's likely to be a lot cleaner. Therefore, a power conditioner might help with SQ in the former scenario, but may be of only minor consideration in the latter. 2) The best way to see whether a power conditioner will help with SQ is to put an oscilloscope across your mains outlets and monitor your power at different times of day. If you tend to only listen to your stereo in the evenings and on weekends, then that's when the quality of your mains supply is most important and that is when you should be monitoring your power. Noise on the mains is not constant. It depends on the local load and what is being used by others on the same neighborhood distribution. For instance, I once lived in a neighborhood where one of my close-by neighbors was a ham radio hobbyist. Every time his transmitter was on, the mains line had lots of RF interference. When he was transmitting CW, one could hear the Morse in quiet musical passages!

[gmgraves]

2 hours ago, One and a half said:

The schuko plug has an earth connection built in for many, many years now. It is also not flimsy unless your hands are like hammers?

 

Matter of opinion, I guess. Must say that I was last in Europe in 2006. I don't of course, know what has transpired since then and even then, my association with European mains connectors was restricted to hotel room mains sockets in Italy, Austria, Bavaria, Switzerland, Provance and the Azure Coast of France. So what was normal and prevalent in Northern Europe, I have no way of knowing.

[gmgraves]

I ran across this review of a balanced mains isolation transformer in a British audio magazine (Hi-Fi-Choice). It's a fairly decent description of what a mains isolation transformer can do for the sound of one's system. Remember that British Mains is 230 volts, so when we Americans read this, keep in mind that our mains is about half that. The transformer in the review, is listed at £1600.00. That's about US$2100, which isn't cheap!

 

 

BMU 1000 Balanced Mains Transformer Unit

By Russ Andrews

THERE’S BEEN A lot of talk about the value of a balanced mains feed supplying power to your audio system, so I was delighted when I had the opportunity to try one that’s been specifically designed for hi-fi applications. The BMU 1000 is built around a high-quality precisionwound 1KVA balanced toroidal mains transformer (BMT), and is suitable for powering systems with a total power consumption up to 800W.

BMTs are claimed to improve sound quality, lower the noise floor and reduce mains interference, as well as reducing the radiated fields from the audio equipment mains leads. They also eliminate earth loops in the house wiring as they’re effective isolation transformers.

How it works

The mains supply consists of three connections: earth, neutral and live. Live is nominally 230VAC, earth is the earth local to your house (0V), and neutral is the earth at the power station, which can often end up at about 30VAC by the time it reaches your setup. A BMT leaves the earth, but changes live to 115VAC with respect to earth and neutral to 115VAC with respect to earth. However, the live and neutral are 180° out of phase with each other, so you still have 230VAC between live and neutral, but now it’s balanced around the earth – hence a balanced mains transformer. So, the live cables of all your hi-fi are at half the mains voltage with respect to earth. A well-designed transformer will also filter out much of the mains-borne interference before it reaches the transformers in the power supplies of your equipment.

The BMU 1000 UK is fitted with two premium-quality Russ Andrews UK UltraSockets and a 16A IEC input socket to allow you a choice of mains cable. The BMU 1000 takes the standard 220-250VAC mains input and provides an optimised 230VAC balanced output. The internal wiring employs TCX Kimber Kable. Its ABS box measures 210 x 90 x 290mm (WxHxD), so it should quite easily fit on or underneath your rack.

As my system is powered via a distribution block, it is an easy job to unplug it from the mains and connect it to the BMU 1000 instead. I begin my listening with Prokofiev’s Piano Concerto No. 3played by Vladimir Ashkenazy with Andre Previn and the LSO. With the BMU 1000 installed. I am surprised by the superb image placement and clarity of the orchestra. Removing the BMT blurs the piano’s position and replacing it results in it immediately snapping sharply back into focus. In fact, all the instruments are more clearly identifi able and have more space around them.

With female vocals, as demonstrated by a recording of The Lake sung by Carla Lother, there is a greater front-to-back depth and width to the performance. The harmonies sung by the female vocalists are more clearly separated from Carla’s singing in the soundstage and I am also aware of a great sense of refinement to the entire recording.

Hans Zimmer’s Wheel Of Fortune from the film Pirates Of The Caribbean: Dead Man’s Chesttakes on a whole new dimension of energy and excitement. The dynamics are noticeably greater, ranging from the delicate tapping of the timpani through to the more authoritative thumping of the kettle drums as the music surges forward.

Keeping it real

Finally, the intoxicating guitar of Boubacar Traoré in Bougoudani highlights the improved intimacy and presence the BMU 1000 brings to the recording. I find myself more involved and drawn in to the performance, and there is a far greater sense of realism.

If you’re serious about hi-fi , you’re going to want a BMT, and this is an excellent one to own. To put the price tag into perspective, it elevates the sonic performance, regardless of the source and enables your system to sing and produce a more sophisticated sound all round. What’s not to like about that?

 

[gmgraves]

4 hours ago, semente said:

Russ Andrews is an audio accessory manufacturer that became famous for having been taken to court for claims he made about his products.

 

Didn't know that. OTOH, I'm not actually endorsing that product, I merely used that review as an example of what an isolation transformer can do for one's system under the rights circumstances.