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USB audio cracked... finally!


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34 minutes ago, Speed Racer said:

 

Intrusion from where? Outside the cable. Emission from where? The cable. That does not mean the cable reduces any noise the computer injects into the cable via the pins in the connector. It just means the cable reduces the noise RFI would otherwise add and does not emit as much RFI as (some) other cables.

Intrusion of high frequency noise from within the computer - usually from the many smps buck converters used in their PSD. 

By reducing emissions it could stop the RFI from polluting the USB shield, preventing SCIN - shield current induced noise?

These are all possibilities - I'm not saying they are set in stone but they counter your started view that USB cables cannot change the audible sound.

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35 minutes ago, fas42 said:

 

Okay, this looks like another case of using a semiconducting layer - the ferrous impregnated dielectric - perhaps to perform some 'magic'.

 

Perfect insulators are not always the best answer - a little bit of conductivity goes a looong way ... ^_^

I wouldn't call it magic - i know you are aware that it's a well known property of ferrous material, clamps, etc. so there's no unexplained mode of action. Just saying this in case readers think you are stating that this is some unknown audiophile 'magic'

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2 minutes ago, mmerrill99 said:

I wouldn't call it magic - i know you are aware that it's a well known property of ferrous material, clamps, etc. so there's no unexplained mode of action. Just saying this in case readers think you are stating that this is some unknown audiophile 'magic'

 

Gee, the magic of using '...' quote characters has worn off a bit ... :P

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6 hours ago, scan80269 said:

Based on recent understandings of what issues the USB interface of a DAC can suffer, I believe there will be newer DAC designs with integrated galvanic isolation, re-clocking, etc. that will render most of the existing USB tweak devices redundant.  It should only be a matter of time.  A few excellent DACs today (Phasure? Berkeley?) are already so good they don't benefit from the USB tweak boxes. 

 

I can't talk about the Berkeley, but I'm quite familiar with the other one :)

 

In it's latest 'G3' guise, with built-in 'Phisolator' (providing galvanic isolation and reconditioning, but with no signal processing), the Phasure NOS1 DAC achieves what you've written above, and yet... the USB cable from the audio PC to DAC still has an affect on the sound. However, using any other 'USB tweak box' before the DAC tends to destroy the sound.

 

Go figure...

 

Mani.

Main: SOtM sMS-200 -> Okto dac8PRO -> 6x Neurochrome 286 mono amps -> Tune Audio Anima horns + 2x Rotel RB-1590 amps -> 4 subs

Home Office: SOtM sMS-200 -> MOTU UltraLite-mk5 -> 6x Neurochrome 286 mono amps -> Impulse H2 speakers

Vinyl: Technics SP10 / London (Decca) Reference -> Trafomatic Luna -> RME ADI-2 Pro

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5 hours ago, hols said:

It so happens that I just received my Lush USB cable 3 days ago and I happen to have both Phasure NOS1a and also several other DACs including Holo Spring that I have also been testing the SOtM tx-USB Ultra (powered by JS-2)and the isoREGEN(powered by LPS1) with USPCB(burned in for the past 2 weeks).

 

Hi L, really great post - thanks for sharing.

 

5 hours ago, hols said:

I then changed to the Lush cable(not really burned in yet) and I must say that this is the one. It just gives you the analogue feel together with details. The violins are silky and yet you can still hear them conveying to you the feelings. No excessive full bodied sound. And listen to the gentle decay of the sound at decrescendos and sound slowly dying away. The microdynamics are all there and most important with feeling. And when the solo piano comes in the percussive notes is both authoritative and musical. Very difficult to achieve. And the musical sound and transparency and details are always there and never gives you fatigue. I must say that this is definitely my preferred sound.

 

Your description of the sound of the Lush matches mine quite closely:

 

13 hours ago, manisandher said:

To my ears, the Lush makes my system sound totally natural and 'analogue'. Instruments and voices have a rich harmonic texture, and yet sound crystal clear.

 

5 hours ago, hols said:

I think the sound can only be bettered by the Phasure NOS1a upgraded G3 which I agree is the best digital sound I have ever heard. Dynamic and yet comes with detail and feelings.( It is a PCM system and yet the musicality wins  the DSD in my other system). The only digital system that can be compared to my $30k LP system.

 

Yep, the NOS1 G3 is a truly SOTA DAC. What amazes me is that I've had my NOS1 for well over 6 years now. In that time, Peter has applied a major upgrade every couple of years or so (and I fully expect this to continue... Peter?). The basic foundation of the DAC tends to remains (e.g. the eight PCM1704U-K chips, etc), but as new technology appears (e.g. femto clocks, etc), it is incorporated into the DAC to keep it SOTA. A really, really nice model IMO.

 

5 hours ago, hols said:

I have no commercial association with all the gears I have mentioned. Just an enduser reporting the end result in his own system.

 

Contrary to what some here believe, I'm in exactly the same boat. I have zero affiliation with Phasure (other than considering Peter and his family friends). Yes, I'm a fan. But then again, how could I not be? The NOS1 knocked my beloved Pacific Microsonics Model Two off its top spot 6 years ago and since then has seen off all other contenders.

 

[And for the record, I've always paid the full retail price for all Phasure products, and will continue to do so - they're already stupidly good value for money, and I know how much time and care goes into creating each one.]

 

Mani.

Main: SOtM sMS-200 -> Okto dac8PRO -> 6x Neurochrome 286 mono amps -> Tune Audio Anima horns + 2x Rotel RB-1590 amps -> 4 subs

Home Office: SOtM sMS-200 -> MOTU UltraLite-mk5 -> 6x Neurochrome 286 mono amps -> Impulse H2 speakers

Vinyl: Technics SP10 / London (Decca) Reference -> Trafomatic Luna -> RME ADI-2 Pro

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3 minutes ago, mmerrill99 said:

It may explain why some cables sound clinical & involving?

 

Yes, both at the same time. Great eh ?

 

Anyway, I'm here now. I have not much time, but will try to provide some insight here or there.

 

Peter

Lush^3-e      Lush^2      Blaxius^2.5      Ethernet^3     HDMI^2     XLR^2

XXHighEnd (developer)

Phasure NOS1 24/768 Async USB DAC (manufacturer)

Phasure Mach III Audio PC with Linear PSU (manufacturer)

Orelino & Orelo MKII Speakers (designer/supplier)

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11 minutes ago, PeterSt said:

 

Yes, both at the same time. Great eh ?

 

Anyway, I'm here now. I have not much time, but will try to provide some insight here or there.

 

Peter

Sorry, that should have read "clinical & uninvolving" - bloody predicitive text.

 

The other day I typed in friction & predictive text changed it to fictionalTrumpland :)

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5 minutes ago, mmerrill99 said:

it the phisolator is only using the Silanna isolator with no urn reclocking after it, then it is introducing jitter into the USB signal - that is a fact.

 

@mmerrill99,

 

Finally finding some time to post in this topic, I like to grant you to be correct in almost everything you stipulated or stated. And mind you, my "correct" is only my perception as a person too. So let it be clear that I too don't have the multi 100K equipment needed to 100% verify what all could be reasoned (and then confirmed by listening) - I wish I had.

On another note, the things I could measure and promised myself to measure, I did not even do because of the result. So at this time I can only be excited about how eye diagrams actually look like, but with the explicit notice that already connecting the equipment will "destroy".

 

The others being explicitly part in the discussions about what could theoretically be done and attacked - same story. It looks like we all learn fast but more importantly, that it does not look like copying from others without actual knowledge. So it is really funny and great to read back about by own contemplations and how actually a fine USB Audio cable could be constructed from reading through this topic. Well, sort of, because the set parameters (and as we can reason - a lot of them exist !) are unknown. That is, for now they are a little secret. I hope this is allowed.

But as we will see further down the line (next posts as far as time permits) there is no voodoo going on and nothing is coincidental. What is quite crucial though is that I happened to start out with the Clairixa which the very best as I could complied to the USB2 specs. So with that as a firm base for specs which coincidentally also implied the best sound (confirmed by all of its owners) I could start changing the now well known parameters.

 

 

Lush^3-e      Lush^2      Blaxius^2.5      Ethernet^3     HDMI^2     XLR^2

XXHighEnd (developer)

Phasure NOS1 24/768 Async USB DAC (manufacturer)

Phasure Mach III Audio PC with Linear PSU (manufacturer)

Orelino & Orelo MKII Speakers (designer/supplier)

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3 minutes ago, mmerrill99 said:

Sorry, that should have read "clinical & uninvolving" - bloody predicitive text.

 

 I know. And I was going to get back at this anyway. Here :

 

16 minutes ago, mmerrill99 said:

it the phisolator is only using the Silanna isolator with no urn reclocking after it, then it is introducing jitter into the USB signal - that is a fact.

 

Things are not as they seem. By far not.

With the notice that all isolation introduces jitter :

 

....  How much jitter was actually there in the first place ? Now notice that we did not see any plots / eye diagrams of that and what's known from Uptone does not show the comparison (there is no complaint anywhere, and just my observation). However, it can be measured. Ehm, for my own set up. So ?

 

The jitter of an isolation device is a quite complex matter, as it is not shown nor proven by any means (that I even have seen) how jitter emerges in that one particular situation. So think about this ... jitter ... why ?

All is about delay in the first place. But delay is no jitter.

When more than one path is involved like USB has two of them for the data alone) then we talk about (possible)  skew. But skew is no jitter again. However :

 

Once there is skew in order, this is very highly challenging for jitter. Why ? well, because the one bit of current needed for the one signal, is detrimental to the current needed to the other signal. And NOW all bets are off.

 

Lastly, but this is very personal, the jitter specs of that chip must have been observed by someone who by now must have OCD because of jitter, because he thinks that the jitter itself causes the chip to fail. Alex said "Ask PeterSt" and I say "ask Alex". Or IOW, those (chips) guys don't know what they are doing anyway in this particular situation, so all is up to ourselves to make it work. And so we did. And this includes attacking jitter or the effects of it or otherwise it just does not work (for hdds it does all right, but not for isochronous audio data).

 

OK, a far too long post about all what is not related at all. But a bit of background.

The post could be an introduction of something which *is* important : I see the Lush compared with jitter bugs and regenarators and that kind of things - no. It is just a cable. No active devices in there. Also no resistors. A cable. But nothing like a USB cable. But USB is transferred over it. :ph34r:

 

Lush^3-e      Lush^2      Blaxius^2.5      Ethernet^3     HDMI^2     XLR^2

XXHighEnd (developer)

Phasure NOS1 24/768 Async USB DAC (manufacturer)

Phasure Mach III Audio PC with Linear PSU (manufacturer)

Orelino & Orelo MKII Speakers (designer/supplier)

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6 minutes ago, PeterSt said:

 

@mmerrill99,

 

Finally finding some time to post in this topic, I like to grant you to be correct in almost everything you stipulated or stated. And mind you, my "correct" is only my perception as a person too. So let it be clear that I too don't have the multi 100K equipment needed to 100% verify what all could be reasoned (and then confirmed by listening) - I wish I had.

On another note, the things I could measure and promised myself to measure, I did not even do because of the result. So at this time I can only be excited about how eye diagrams actually look like, but with the explicit notice that already connecting the equipment will "destroy".

 

The others being explicitly part in the discussions about what could theoretically be done and attacked - same story. It looks like we all learn fast but more importantly, that it does not look like copying from others without actual knowledge. So it is really funny and great to read back about by own contemplations and how actually a fine USB Audio cable could be constructed from reading through this topic. Well, sort of, because the set parameters (and as we can reason - a lot of them exist !) are unknown. That is, for now they are a little secret. I hope this is allowed.

But as we will see further down the line (next posts as far as time permits) there is no voodoo going on and nothing is coincidental. What is quite crucial though is that I happened to start out with the Clairixa which the very best as I could complied to the USB2 specs. So with that as a firm base for specs which coincidentally also implied the best sound (confirmed by all of its owners) I could start changing the now well known parameters.

 

 

Peter,

  Thank you for the input into the design and construction of the Lush. 

  As you keep digging into the whole USB system from computer, cable, and G3 dac is there still room for further advances? 

  The USB transmission as a whole is getting a lot of attention from many talented teams. 

  I hope in 3 years we are looking at Ethernet, USB-/TB3, and other options with the same intensity. It can only help advance sound quality in reproduction.

 

2012 Mac Mini, i5 - 2.5 GHz, 16 GB RAM. SSD,  PM/PV software, Focusrite Clarett 4Pre 4 channel interface. Daysequerra M4.0X Broadcast monitor., My_Ref Evolution rev a , Klipsch La Scala II, Blue Sky Sub 12

Clarett used as ADC for vinyl rips.

Corning Optical Thunderbolt cable used to connect computer to 4Pre. Dac fed by iFi iPower and Noise Trapper isolation transformer. 

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15 minutes ago, mmerrill99 said:

USB signal integrity seems to matter - this has all been stated already on this thread but the exact mechanism by which this audibly affects the DAC's output isn't nailed down yet

 

This is very crucial as it is beyond our control. Well, together with the perception that indeed the error detection and communication caused by it is influencing SQ (current draw at the receiver side, possibly explicitly thinking about the uneven current draw)  it is crucial.

 

It is beyond our control because we seem unable to influence this. We might be able to check it for a particular situation, but I don't think a commercial product can me made out of it. This story is infinitely longer, and because in my view it is unrelated to what the Lush does, what remains is my statement that I did not work on that at all.

Important side note : while I think I know all about it. And I refer to that stupid chip again (man, when I write about this chip, I think in terms of lawsuits).

Lush^3-e      Lush^2      Blaxius^2.5      Ethernet^3     HDMI^2     XLR^2

XXHighEnd (developer)

Phasure NOS1 24/768 Async USB DAC (manufacturer)

Phasure Mach III Audio PC with Linear PSU (manufacturer)

Orelino & Orelo MKII Speakers (designer/supplier)

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5 minutes ago, PeterSt said:

Now notice that we did not see any plots / eye diagrams of that and what's known from Uptone does not show the comparison (there is no complaint anywhere, and just my observation).

I think Silanna have stated that jitter is on the output signal of their chip - do they not state it in their chips' data sheet? It's a well recognised fact specifcied in all isolator chip datasheets, AFAIK?

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4 minutes ago, PeterSt said:

This is very crucial as it is beyond our control.

I don't believe that "it is beyond our control" We can control it up to a certain point but ultimately not render the USB port completely immune to the signal integrity of the incoming USB signal

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2 minutes ago, Panelhead said:

As you keep digging into the whole USB system from computer, cable, and G3 dac is there still room for further advances?

 

Yes. But it will be harder and harder to unequivocally confirm by my self (say before real production and  shipping) that the change is an advance. The G3 upgrade really took me a year of being unsure because of a so different sound. It worked out in the end, but needing a year to be sure is a bit, well, hard.

 

To stay on topic, not so with the Lush and I actually just talked about it;

I aimed for something explicitly with a most good idea ... bought many pieces of test cable and braid / sleeved etc. before I knew I was going to right direction and once the direction was set I already created the first "commercial" about it for the Phasure forum. That sure I was, albeit I postponed that post 2 weeks after all.

The point is : once something suddenly turns out in real music, you know the difference. This is not about "are these highs for the better or are they shrill in that other album" (which takes me days). So no, this is really about music as such and how all suddenly plays together. I didn't even know it could exist ...

(end of commercial, but is really is about that - I would not even claim the cable sounds "better" or such ... it WORKS (better))

Lush^3-e      Lush^2      Blaxius^2.5      Ethernet^3     HDMI^2     XLR^2

XXHighEnd (developer)

Phasure NOS1 24/768 Async USB DAC (manufacturer)

Phasure Mach III Audio PC with Linear PSU (manufacturer)

Orelino & Orelo MKII Speakers (designer/supplier)

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3 minutes ago, mmerrill99 said:

I don't believe that "it is beyond our control" We can control it up to a certain point but ultimately not render the USB port completely immune to the signal integrity of the incoming USB signal

 

OK, we talk past each other a little;

With not under control, I mean that I know what is going on (you too, because you recognized it is about timing) and this timing is different for anyone.

 

Notice that I - but mainly another technically involved bloke on this side of the pond - is working on this and focused on the timing indeed (this involves MoBo and USB Interface adjustments). They work out for sure, but only for me with my analyzer; If I'd try to do it for you it won't work out. Your climate is better or you just have that airconditioner.

Anyway, in that realm I talked. Of course there is more, but my subject (f we recognize it exists) is sufficient to be out of control.

Lush^3-e      Lush^2      Blaxius^2.5      Ethernet^3     HDMI^2     XLR^2

XXHighEnd (developer)

Phasure NOS1 24/768 Async USB DAC (manufacturer)

Phasure Mach III Audio PC with Linear PSU (manufacturer)

Orelino & Orelo MKII Speakers (designer/supplier)

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43 minutes ago, mmerrill99 said:

One thing that's clear - it the phisolator is only using the Silanna isolator with no urn reclocking after it, then it is introducing jitter into the USB signal - that is a fact.

It may explain why some cables sound clinical & involving?

 

What does "clinical" or "involving" mean?

 

In my experience, as you remove playback-generated "grime" from the signal the sound becomes "smoother"/"softer" and you can hear more of the recorded detail.

But I don't know how this can be applied to a USB interface/connection.

"Science draws the wave, poetry fills it with water" Teixeira de Pascoaes

 

HQPlayer Desktop / Mac mini → Intona 7054 → RME ADI-2 DAC FS (DSD256)

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Yes, correct. But please absorb what I wrote about it. Okay, you already did, but my context is that datasheet where indeed it is stated. It is also not the lowest (it is bad). But now you tell me the jitter coming from my super duper Stealth PC with Linear supply and the Xeon cores acg (Anthony) mentioned.

 

See ?

 

There is another subject involved I don't like to talk about because it is too much off topic. But if needed later I will refer to this line of text.

Lush^3-e      Lush^2      Blaxius^2.5      Ethernet^3     HDMI^2     XLR^2

XXHighEnd (developer)

Phasure NOS1 24/768 Async USB DAC (manufacturer)

Phasure Mach III Audio PC with Linear PSU (manufacturer)

Orelino & Orelo MKII Speakers (designer/supplier)

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20 minutes ago, PeterSt said:

 

 I know. And I was going to get back at this anyway. Here :

 

 

Things are not as they seem. By far not.

With the notice that all isolation introduces jitter :

 

....  How much jitter was actually there in the first place ? Now notice that we did not see any plots / eye diagrams of that and what's known from Uptone does not show the comparison (there is no complaint anywhere, and just my observation). However, it can be measured. Ehm, for my own set up. So ?

 

The jitter of an isolation device is a quite complex matter, as it is not shown nor proven by any means (that I even have seen) how jitter emerges in that one particular situation. So think about this ... jitter ... why ?

All is about delay in the first place. But delay is no jitter.

When more than one path is involved like USB has two of them for the data alone) then we talk about (possible)  skew. But skew is no jitter again. However :

 

Once there is skew in order, this is very highly challenging for jitter. Why ? well, because the one bit of current needed for the one signal, is detrimental to the current needed to the other signal. And NOW all bets are off.

 

Lastly, but this is very personal, the jitter specs of that chip must have been observed by someone who by now must have OCD because of jitter, because he thinks that the jitter itself causes the chip to fail. Alex said "Ask PeterSt" and I say "ask Alex". Or IOW, those (chips) guys don't know what they are doing anyway in this particular situation, so all is up to ourselves to make it work. And so we did. And this includes attacking jitter or the effects of it or otherwise it just does not work (for hdds it does all right, but not for isochronous audio data).

 

OK, a far too long post about all what is not related at all. But a bit of background.

The post could be an introduction of something which *is* important : I see the Lush compared with jitter bugs and regenarators and that kind of things - no. It is just a cable. No active devices in there. Also no resistors. A cable. But nothing like a USB cable. But USB is transferred over it. :ph34r:

 

 

So what have you achieved by not complying with the USB spec: a more accurate audio signal transfer or "better" sound?

"Science draws the wave, poetry fills it with water" Teixeira de Pascoaes

 

HQPlayer Desktop / Mac mini → Intona 7054 → RME ADI-2 DAC FS (DSD256)

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3 minutes ago, semente said:

What does "clinical" or "involving" mean?

 

OK, nice side step and my perception only :

 

Clinical is an old fashioned term my father used. Maybe many still use it, but in by book it has been scratched. This is because :

All should be sounding clinical as it unveils everything (translate the word and you get where I want to go with it).

 

But clinical is equivalent to cold.

And cold is the opposite of involving. Well, sort of. When things sound too cold, you won't be able to get involved with it. It is too far from you and what your brain likes.

 

Clinical sound can only emerge form high accuracy and then in the sense of "no ringing". With high ringing all buzzes and sounds gray. It smears. How can "analysis" happen when all is smeared.

 

But this is one of the great aspects of the Lush. It seems it is able to smear (just saying) but pertain the detail. This needs more elaboration (but is not easy).

Lush^3-e      Lush^2      Blaxius^2.5      Ethernet^3     HDMI^2     XLR^2

XXHighEnd (developer)

Phasure NOS1 24/768 Async USB DAC (manufacturer)

Phasure Mach III Audio PC with Linear PSU (manufacturer)

Orelino & Orelo MKII Speakers (designer/supplier)

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3 minutes ago, semente said:

So what have you achieved by not complying with the USB spec: a more accurate audio signal transfer or "better" sound?

 

Well observed. See previous post.

The latter.

 

It is also the very first time that I worked with a subjective parameter. Really.

Lush^3-e      Lush^2      Blaxius^2.5      Ethernet^3     HDMI^2     XLR^2

XXHighEnd (developer)

Phasure NOS1 24/768 Async USB DAC (manufacturer)

Phasure Mach III Audio PC with Linear PSU (manufacturer)

Orelino & Orelo MKII Speakers (designer/supplier)

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