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USB audio cracked... finally!


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All I can add to this discussion is that it is not even easy to find consensus about these differential matters. Notice that this is implied by the very low speed we talk about. In my experience, when the chips are down, the EE may tell you "oh don't bother at these lousy speeds - it will work anyway".

That this is exactly the headroom we now can play with, is ... good for audio.

 

On the other hand ...

 

Get yourself a twisted pair cable which is unevenly twisted or has too few twists per distance unit, and nothing works.

 

Lush^3-e      Lush^2      Blaxius^2.5      Ethernet^3     HDMI^2     XLR^2

XXHighEnd (developer)

Phasure NOS1 24/768 Async USB DAC (manufacturer)

Phasure Mach III Audio PC with Linear PSU (manufacturer)

Orelino & Orelo MKII Speakers (designer/supplier)

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@The Computer Audiophile

What I actually said was " read the links & correct your knowledge on this"

 

I specifically gave links to quality articles by known experts in the field which answers the points raised in many of the posts which followed. What I meant by " read the links & correct your knowledge on this" was meant to mean just that & specifically to avoid the boring esoteric stuff being posted when there was no need - it's already answered in the articles.

 

I also believe that there's a bit of imbalance in your view of what's personal:

 

5 hours ago, marce said:

Rubbish, its a differential signal its the differential impedance that is critical.

 

 

2 hours ago, marce said:

That you presumed the single ended impedance was half the differential impedance shows you have a lack of understanding on diff signals.

 

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8 minutes ago, PeterSt said:

Get yourself a twisted pair cable which is unevenly twisted or has too few twists per distance unit, and nothing works.

Indeed, cables are not tightly controlled as regards impedance consistency end to end - PCB traces are easy to control - hence the PCB based USB connector being profered by Uptone

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1 hour ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

This just in - 

 

From the Schiit website:

 

“Throw away your decrapifiers, regenerators, isolators, magic boxes, and all the rest of those USB band-aids,” Mike Moffat, Schiit’s Co-Founder said. “You don’t need them with our Gen 5 USB input.”

 

Suggests that nothing before the Gen 5 will make a difference. Might buy a new Schiit DAC with Gen 5 installed just to find out. Will obviously report my findings...

 

Mani.

Main: SOtM sMS-200 -> Okto dac8PRO -> 6x Neurochrome 286 mono amps -> Tune Audio Anima horns + 2x Rotel RB-1590 amps -> 4 subs

Home Office: SOtM sMS-200 -> MOTU UltraLite-mk5 -> 6x Neurochrome 286 mono amps -> Impulse H2 speakers

Vinyl: Technics SP10 / London (Decca) Reference -> Trafomatic Luna -> RME ADI-2 Pro

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2 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

I thought it was appropriate to post in this thread because it's right up the alley of this discussion. 

 

Absolutely it is.

 

It's quite a claim from Schiit though, and they're going to have to live up to it. Interesting that they're not offering the Gen 5 in a USB-to-USB isolator (only a USB-to-spdif converter, the Eitr) - if they had, it would have been easy for anyone with any USB DAC to verify their claim.

 

Mani.

Main: SOtM sMS-200 -> Okto dac8PRO -> 6x Neurochrome 286 mono amps -> Tune Audio Anima horns + 2x Rotel RB-1590 amps -> 4 subs

Home Office: SOtM sMS-200 -> MOTU UltraLite-mk5 -> 6x Neurochrome 286 mono amps -> Impulse H2 speakers

Vinyl: Technics SP10 / London (Decca) Reference -> Trafomatic Luna -> RME ADI-2 Pro

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34 minutes ago, manisandher said:

 

Absolutely it is.

 

It's quite a claim from Schiit though, and they're going to have to live up to it. Interesting that they're not offering the Gen 5 in a USB-to-USB isolator (only a USB-to-spdif converter, the Eitr) - if they had, it would have been easy for anyone with any USB DAC to verify their claim.

 

Mani.

 

Trafo isolation sounds like Ethernet.  Except that (Ethernet built-in transformer isolation) doesn’t always work completely to stop noise, as I found out in my system.

One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller

The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein

Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature.

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21 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

8 pages and this thread should already be well off the rails. 

 

Thanks to everyone for being respectful and helping (or not participating at all) to make the discussion enjoyable. 

 

:|

Lush^3-e      Lush^2      Blaxius^2.5      Ethernet^3     HDMI^2     XLR^2

XXHighEnd (developer)

Phasure NOS1 24/768 Async USB DAC (manufacturer)

Phasure Mach III Audio PC with Linear PSU (manufacturer)

Orelino & Orelo MKII Speakers (designer/supplier)

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22 minutes ago, Jud said:

 

Trafo isolation sounds like Ethernet.  Except that (Ethernet built-in transformer isolation) doesn’t always work completely to stop noise, as I found out in my system.

 

I still don't get this. Look here:

 

ethernettransformer.jpg

 

How does the noise get past the magnetic transformer?

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25 minutes ago, manisandher said:

 

True.

 

It's interesting, from what I recollect of the Yggy's sound when I had it here last year, I'd say it was crying out for something like the Lush.

 

In any event, I'll get hold of an Yggy Gen 5 at some point to verify their claim of total USB immunity... and see how far behind the Phasure NOS1 G3 it remains :P

 

Mani.

If you say so.?

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5 minutes ago, Speed Racer said:

 

I still don't get this. Look here:

 

ethernettransformer.jpg

 

How does the noise get past the magnetic transformer?

 

Those little transformers have parasitic capacitance > 0. a.k.a. "leakage current"

Custom room treatments for headphone users.

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2 minutes ago, jabbr said:

 

There's also GMR which really is very similar to transformer: https://www.nve.com/Downloads/galv.pdf

 

Yep - John Swenson prefers them to on-board optical isolators (for USB?), as I recall.

One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller

The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein

Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature.

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18 minutes ago, Speed Racer said:

How does the noise get past the magnetic transformer?

 

I've never understood why people think transformers prevent noise from passing through them. They prevent DC, for sure, and are certainly bandwidth limited. But in this case, they must pass (edit - really need to get my M and k sorted out!) 500MHz or so, so any noise under (edit) 500MHz will get through. If it didn't, the USB signal wouldn't either.

 

What am I missing here?

 

Mani.

Main: SOtM sMS-200 -> Okto dac8PRO -> 6x Neurochrome 286 mono amps -> Tune Audio Anima horns + 2x Rotel RB-1590 amps -> 4 subs

Home Office: SOtM sMS-200 -> MOTU UltraLite-mk5 -> 6x Neurochrome 286 mono amps -> Impulse H2 speakers

Vinyl: Technics SP10 / London (Decca) Reference -> Trafomatic Luna -> RME ADI-2 Pro

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1 hour ago, manisandher said:

 

In any event, I'll get hold of an Yggy Gen 5 at some point to verify their claim of total USB immunity... and see how far behind the Phasure NOS1 G3 it remains :P

 

 

Uhh....whenever I read two words - "manisandher" and "Yggy"...... :P

 

Anyway, my Lush is on order for good, hopefully. I have Audience Au24 and Curious (both short and long) at hand to compare with.

 

 

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2 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Yeah, should be interesting. I thought it was appropriate to post in this thread because it's right up the alley of this discussion. 

 

Looks similar to the DIYINHK USB interface which is well regarded: https://hifiduino.wordpress.com/2013/04/03/c-media-cm6631a-based-usb-i2s-interface/

 

Not sure anything earth shattering here ... the C-Media CM6631a USB interface has been out for awhile.

Custom room treatments for headphone users.

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8 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

 

Good thing that components in the hands of good designers can turn into products that are much better than the sum of their parts :~)

 

That's what they claim ;) In any case the DIYINHK version is $40 but doesn't have the isolation. I hope that we will continue to see more effort given to DAC interface isolation and good engineering practices (none of this is too esoteric). Schiit does a great job of keeping their costs reasonable.

 

You'd be surprised at how many high-end DACs use $40-50 USB interface boards ... time for some value add, particularly at the higher end O.o

Custom room treatments for headphone users.

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