How DOES the grounding boxes work?

[mansr]

3 minutes ago, Cornan said:

Well that sounds like tourmalines to me! They will release negatively charged ions when presented with a positive charge (heat).

Positive charge is not the same thing as heat.

[Jud]

2 minutes ago, lasker98 said:

 

The cable between the box and the component completes the circuit. My hypothesis is that the contents of the box, in conjunction with the noise, is what's creating the "buildup".

 

I do appreciate your feedback and tact, but it seems it may be you that doesn't want to hear or consider anything beyond your preconceived ideas about this? I say that with no offense intended but I do get that sense from reading your responses to my posts.

 

Where is the return for the circuit?

[Cornan]

1 minute ago, mansr said:

Positive charge is not the same thing as heat.

 

No, but tourmaline stones releases negative ions with heat and pressure as well as with a positive charge.

[mansr]

3 minutes ago, lasker98 said:

The cable between the box and the component completes the circuit. My hypothesis is that the contents of the box, in conjunction with the noise, is what's creating the "buildup".

 

I do appreciate your feedback and tact, but it seems it may be you that doesn't want to hear or consider anything beyond your preconceived ideas about this? I say that with no offense intended but I do get that sense from reading your responses to my posts.

There are two possibilities:

1. You are wrong.
2. Maxwell, Ohm, Kirchhoff, Tesla, etc were all wrong.

I know which I think is more likely.

[89reksal]

1 minute ago, Jud said:

Where is the return for the circuit?

 Again, no offense meant, but did you read my post above where I attempted to explain my thoughts? There doesn't need to be a return if the box is functioning as I speculated. Current will flow until there's no longer a potential difference between the box and the point it's connected to. That's all that's required.

[marce]

2 minutes ago, mansr said:

There are two possibilities:

1. You are wrong.
2. Maxwell, Ohm, Kirchhoff, Tesla, etc were all wrong.

I know which I think is more likely.

No 2 possibly

You did forget the Father of signal integrity Oliver Heaviside

[89reksal]

3 minutes ago, mansr said:

There are two possibilities:

1. You are wrong.
2. Maxwell, Ohm, Kirchhoff, Tesla, etc were all wrong.

I know which I think is more likely.

 

Please explain how anything I posted violates any of those in #2. I have to question your understanding if you think my basic logic is wrong.

[marce]

1 minute ago, lasker98 said:

 Again, no offense meant, but did you read my post above where I attempted to explain my thoughts? There doesn't need to be a return if the box is functioning as I speculated. Current will flow until there's no longer a potential difference between the box and the point it's connected to. That's all that's required.

Wheres the return, to form a loop, you need a loop.

ALL signals are based on potential differences, you need a loop to form a circuit or NO current flows.

[pkane2001]

12 minutes ago, mansr said:

Well, a piece of metal will hold a charge. To get the charge there in the first place, however, an opposite charge must be created somewhere.

Charge build up in a conductor forms the opposite charge relative to earth reference in self-capacitance.

 

But you don't need expensive mahogany boxes and semi-precious stones for this: just place a small-valued capacitor between device ground plane and true earth ground, and you'll have the same effect.

[Jud]

1 minute ago, lasker98 said:

 Again, no offense meant, but did you read my post above where I attempted to explain my thoughts? There doesn't need to be a return if the box is functioning as I speculated. Current will flow until there's no longer a potential difference between the box and the point it's connected to. That's all that's required.

 

If what you speculate were correct, there would be no such thing as potential.  That is, if charge operated like heat, and simply flowed from where there is more to where there is less without a circuit, doing so at the speed of light/electricity, any difference in potential would be immediately eliminated.

 

So it seems to me your hypothesis contains its own contradiction: If current flowed as a result of mere potential without a circuit, there would be no potential to cause current to flow.

[mansr]

Just now, Cornan said:

No, but tourmaline stones releases negative ions with heat and pressure as well as with a positive charge.

Let's pretend this is true. What becomes of the remaining positive ions?

[Cornan]

2 minutes ago, pkane2001 said:

Charge build up in a conductor forms the opposite charge relative to earth reference in self-capacitance.

 

But you don't need expensive mahogany boxes and semi-precious stones for this: just place a small-valued capacitor between device ground plane and true earth ground, and you'll have the same effect.

 

That would be an interesting DIY to try! ? What small value capacitor are we talking about here? Could this capacitor be used via signal ground or chassi ground?

[89reksal]

3 minutes ago, marce said:

Wheres the return, to form a loop, you need a loop.

ALL signals are based on potential differences, you need a loop to form a circuit or NO current flows.

marce, I really don't know what more I can add or how many more ways I can try and explain it but please try and follow my thinking:

 

"

Jud, I have to disagree with that comment. Just so we have a base reference between us, I went to school for Electronics Technician and worked in service for almost 20 years so I do have at least a basic understanding of electronic/electrical theory.

I think the box could definitely be either a source or destination for current. Everyone seems to be going off the assumption that there has to be a closed loop for current to flow. I believe that's only true for current to CONTINUOUSLY flow. All that's required for current to flow is a potential differednce (voltage difference) between 2 points and a path for the current to flow between those 2 points. So in the case of the boxes I'm saying that current could flow in either direction, depending on the relative potential difference between the 2 points, and will flow until that difference no longer remains. That's my logic for disagreeing with your comment.

 

As I posted my thoughts in this earlier post:

 

"Maybe this paragraph from the pdf marce linked contains a clue?
 
"Many engineers treat ground planes as if they were made of a superconductor rather than copper and assume that, no matter the current flowing in them, every part of a ground plane is at the same potential. While such an assumption may be reasonable on PC cards bearing only logic circuitry (or it may not, if the logic is very fast), it can lead to unacceptably low performance in PC cards carrying high precision or high frequency analog circuitry."
 
It seems most assume all ground within a device is the same potential. I know I did. Maybe as described above these differences of potential within a given  ground system or ground plane are what these boxes are trying to manipulate?  Maybe the noise that's being picked up is somehow carrying current from the box back to the connection point, instead of the assumption that current is flowing from connection point to the box. Maybe what's inside the box facilitates this flow of current and is providing the source of it. This flow of current back to the connection point should change the potential of that point which may bring it closer to a more ideal level with respect to the rest of the ground plane/system. It seems having the entire ground plane at the same potential is a good thing. if these boxes are helping do this, then that could result in the sonic improvements some hear. Maybe that's why as Cornan stated, the boxes require some experimentation to find the best locations to use them. Maybe the "best" locations are those that have the greatest potential difference from the rest of the ground plane.
 
A lot of maybes for sure but who know"

 

That could be what the box is trying to do. Somehow it's functioning to even out the voltage across the component(s) ground. Again, maybe the noise picked up is part of the mechanism that somehow allows the contents of the box to generate a charge, creating the possibility for a potential difference between the box and the point on the component it's connected to. So depending on the relative potentials of that point and the box, current will flow either from the component or to the component, at least until there no longer remains a difference between the 2 points. What that should achieve is a change in the ground voltage at that point, which would ideally be closer to the overall ground plane voltage of the component, which based on the pdf marce linked and I quoted above, should be beneficial. This is all theory but it's really the only theory (other than the "antenna" theory, which I believe is too simplistic for words) I've seen proposed in this thread so far.

 

The reason I think it's far more than just an antenna is because if it was just working as an antenna, why not just use some kind of optimized antenna to do the job. Why go to all the trouble and expense to have the box filled with some mystery contents. Just to fool everyone? I know many here will say yes, that's all, but I believe that's beyond far-fetched."

 

If people can't understand how current can flow between 2 points even though there's no closed loop, then maybe some review of basic electrical theory may help. Don't know what else to say.

[lmitche]

Here is a reference to a similar approach first using litzwire and then enhanced with connection to the negative terminal of a battery.

 

There are lots of single wire devices that make similar claims.

 

https://iamyuanwu.wordpress.com/audio/audio-direction-ltd-adl/adls-battery-ground-tweak/

 

Have fun!

[89reksal]

4 minutes ago, Jud said:

If what you speculate were correct, there would be no such thing as potential.  That is, if charge operated like heat, and simply flowed from where there is more to where there is less without a circuit, doing so at the speed of light/electricity, any difference in potential would be immediately eliminated.

 

So it seems to me your hypothesis contains its own contradiction: If current flowed as a result of mere potential without a circuit, there would be no potential to cause current to flow.

 

If the purpose of the box is somehow to adjust the potential of the point on the component it's connected to (only my theory), then what you're stating is pretty much exactly how you want it to work. Once the difference between the box and the connection point is eliminated, then current will no longer flow. Anytime that difference becomes great enough, then current will again flow between the 2 points until the difference is eliminated. In that way it's maintaining the potential of the component connection point at a constant level. Sounds pretty good to me. 

[Cornan]

Just now, mansr said:

Let's pretend this is true. What becomes of the remaining positive ions?

 

If you mean the excessive positive ions that cannot be stored my guess is that they returns the same way the came from. It will just be less of them.

There is a common knowledge with grounding boxes that it takes approx. 24hrs before they come up in full potential. In a grounding point of view it is crazy, but if you consider that tourmaline stones needs to be charged it make "sense" to me in a way. But I am not an expert.

[pkane2001]

1 minute ago, Cornan said:

 

That would be an interesting DIY to try! ? What small value capacitor are we talking about here? Could this capacitor be used via signal ground or chassi ground?

 

You can calculate the self-capacitance of a conductor based on its distance to earth. If your conductor is 1m from earth, then capacitance will be around 0.1pF.  10m will be 0.01pF. I assume you'll want to connect it to the same ground plane that the grounding box connects to.

 

Note that this will not do anything if your device ground plane is already connected to earth ground, but may do something if it's floating.

[AnotherSpin]

Electricity is not important, human perception is. Do we understand completely and finally how it works?

 

[Jud]

Just now, lasker98 said:

 

If the purpose of the box is somehow to adjust the potential of the point on the component it's connected to (only my theory), then what you're stating is pretty much exactly how you want it to work. Once the difference between the box and the connection point is eliminated, then current will no longer flow. Anytime that difference becomes great enough, then current will again flow between the 2 points until the difference is eliminated. In that way it's maintaining the potential of the component connection point at a constant level. Sounds pretty good to me. 

 

If what you say is true, why is the box necessary?  *There would be no difference in potential to start with and nothing to adjust.*  Because the internals of the equipment would automatically adjust to eliminate any potential at all, just like heat, except instant, at the speed of light/electricity. 

 

So imagine you have a refrigerator where heat conduction happens at the speed of light.  You set the thermostat and everything in the fridge is instantly at the temperature you set.  Where is the need for a separate heat box to regulate the temperature of the refrigerator contents?

[plissken]

23 minutes ago, mansr said:

There are two possibilities:

1. You are wrong.
2. Maxwell, Ohm, Kirchhoff, Tesla, etc were all wrong.

I know which I think is more likely.

 

This has now turned into the absurd. I really wish there was a moderation line where they either support these truly ignorant claims or they are moderated out of the thread (not the site, just the thread).

 

Sorry but stupidity like this needs to be quashed.

[Cornan]

1 minute ago, pkane2001 said:

 

You can calculate the self-capacitance of a conductor based on its distance to earth. If your conductor is 1m from earth, then capacitance will be around 0.1pF.  10m will be 0.01pF. I assume you'll want to connect it to the same ground plane that the grounding box connects to.

 

Note that this will not do anything if your device ground plane is already connected to earth ground, but may do something if it's floating.

 

Well, since all my ground paths is floating it seems like an interesting thing to try. Thanks for sharing! ?

[mansr]

3 minutes ago, Cornan said:

If you mean the excessive positive ions that cannot be stored my guess is that they returns the same way the came from. It will just be less of them.

Huh? If a substance is somehow made to release negative ions, there must be an equal build-up of positive ions within said substance. Where is it you suppose they would "return" to?

[AJ Soundfield]

6 minutes ago, Cornan said:

Well, since all my ground paths is floating it seems like an interesting thing to try. 

Your box of rocks is floating. "Ground" not so much.

Out of curiosity, what perceived deficiency in your system was this bought to correct?

[89reksal]

3 minutes ago, Jud said:

If what you say is true, why is the box necessary?  *There would be no difference in potential to start with and nothing to adjust.*  Because the internals of the equipment would automatically adjust to eliminate any potential at all, just like heat, except instant, at the speed of light/electricity.

 

Based on this paragraph from a link provided  earlier in this thread by marce:

 

""Many engineers treat ground planes as if they were made of a superconductor rather than copper and assume that, no matter the current flowing in them, every part of a ground plane is at the same potential. While such an assumption may be reasonable on PC cards bearing only logic circuitry (or it may not, if the logic is very fast), it can lead to unacceptably low performance in PC cards carrying high precision or high frequency analog circuitry."

 

It seems from reading that, there may be a possibility that the box is somehow addressing these differences with the ground plane. If it can somehow eliminate or reduce the difference then maybe that's what's creating the audible change people hear. Without the box, there would be no change to the ground plane. The box is necessary to create this change.

 

All this is only speculation on my part. I've seen nothing posted here that would make me believe my theory is impossible. I didn't submit this as a scientific paper for publication. People posted that it HAS to be an antenna. Case closed. I don't see people jumping all over those claims. I'm becoming very frustrated with the responses I'm getting. I wonder if people actually read anything beyond the first line or two of a post.

 

 

[AJ Soundfield]

28 minutes ago, lasker98 said:

If the purpose of the box is somehow

I agree