Popular Post mansr Posted July 11, 2017 Popular Post Share Posted July 11, 2017 42 minutes ago, lasker98 said: Ah, thanks. So because you don't understand it it can't work? On the contrary, some of us understand why it can't work. 42 minutes ago, lasker98 said: So it's safer to assume that Entreq has been around 16 or 17 years, based out of a 12,000 sq/m building selling products designed solely to deceive an unsuspecting customer base? They wouldn't be the only ones. 42 minutes ago, lasker98 said: Sorry to say that doesn't work for me. I personally don't have that little respect for the human race. That doesn't mean others don't. wgscott and sarvsa 2 Link to comment
Popular Post AJ Soundfield Posted July 11, 2017 Popular Post Share Posted July 11, 2017 35 minutes ago, Cornan said: Is there a more simple way to see if the antenna theory is correct or not Hook it up to your tuner, see if you get Sveriges plissken and sarvsa 2 Link to comment
Popular Post 89reksal Posted July 11, 2017 Popular Post Share Posted July 11, 2017 46 minutes ago, plissken said: You are now replying to me and you have reached beyond your technical limits. I've always thought I was pretty much a professional a..hole. I'm humbled now. I'm in the presence of true greatness. AnotherSpin, Cornan, MikeyFresh and 1 other 4 Link to comment
Popular Post esldude Posted July 11, 2017 Popular Post Share Posted July 11, 2017 14 minutes ago, AJ Soundfield said: Hook it up to your tuner, see if you get Sveriges Not a bad idea. To the OP. Do you have a tuner? Connect a wire from the antenna connection of the tuner to the jack on the Entreq. See how well it works. If the hinted at principles of operation are in effect, the Entreq will ground and absorb any signals the tuner needs. semente, plissken and sarvsa 3 And always keep in mind: Cognitive biases, like seeing optical illusions are a sign of a normally functioning brain. We all have them, it’s nothing to be ashamed about, but it is something that affects our objective evaluation of reality. Link to comment
Cornan Posted July 11, 2017 Author Share Posted July 11, 2017 2 minutes ago, esldude said: Not a bad idea. To the OP. Do you have a tuner? Connect a wire from the antenna connection of the tuner to the jack on the Entreq. See how well it works. If the hinted at principles of operation are in effect, the Entreq will ground and absorb any signals the tuner needs. Unfortunately I do not own a tuner. I'll guess I could check if any friends of mine own one though. If not Is it possible to measure it using a simple multimeter? Link to comment
Ralf11 Posted July 11, 2017 Share Posted July 11, 2017 1 hour ago, 4est said: This says a lot about you as well, if you think curiosity is not a part of scientific studies. Of course what does a layman as me know, you are the prof. not only do you not know much, you are misquoting me - is it intentional?? Link to comment
Ralf11 Posted July 11, 2017 Share Posted July 11, 2017 the "Entreq grounding" boxes are made out of oak - that may be why they don't work maple is what is needed here mansr 1 Link to comment
Popular Post Jud Posted July 11, 2017 Popular Post Share Posted July 11, 2017 14 minutes ago, Cornan said: Unfortunately I do not own a tuner. I'll guess I could check if any friends of mine own one though. If not Is it possible to measure it using a simple multimeter? Have anything at all with the “rabbit ears” or “whip” type of antenna, like a table radio? Actually there’s a gem kind of buried in esldude’s message: If something like the Entreq box worked, then antennas wouldn’t be antennas, they’d act as grounds for what they were attached to. sarvsa, semente and wgscott 3 One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature. Link to comment
AJ Soundfield Posted July 11, 2017 Share Posted July 11, 2017 30 minutes ago, Cornan said: Unfortunately I do not own a tuner. I'll guess I could check if any friends of mine own one though. Or an AVR. No HT AVR??? Link to comment
fas42 Posted July 11, 2017 Share Posted July 11, 2017 The first system of mine that produced the SQ that has been the goal ever since, 30 years ago, suffered a major flaw - the quality only lasted a short period of time, it slowly faded away, to be replaced by conventional stereo playback quality. But I could reset it by, literally, resetting the system - that is, turning everything off, waiting for the supplies to discharge, and switching on again - exactly as if it were a Windows machine ! Never solved that, but in hindsight it was a static buildup issue, most likely. So, my interest would be whether someone here who uses a grounding box regime would be able to see the same thing in action - that is, note how the sound is impacted by having the boxes in place, versus not connected; then, with the boxes not connected, try resetting the rig as I used to do, and see whether there is some audible quality difference corresponding to having the boxes hooked up. Link to comment
Popular Post Jud Posted July 11, 2017 Popular Post Share Posted July 11, 2017 39 minutes ago, lasker98 said: I've always thought I was pretty much a professional a..hole. I'm humbled now. I'm in the presence of true greatness. lasker, I have to say this time I don’t think plissken acted rudely. He really did try to tell you what was going on; I think you were not ready or willing to hear out what he had to say. I don’t know if I can explain it any better (in fact I will probably do a lot worse), but I will try. From what you have written, it seems to me you have the idea that there would be current flowing to the Entreq box. But current can’t just flow *to* a box in the air, it must flow *through* it. The ground in that case would be the *return path* for the current in a *circuit*. A single wire to a box connected to nothing else provides no return path, thus no circuit, thus no current flowing to/through the box. The only way such an arrangement can provide current/signal is by picking up electromagnetic waves over the air, i.e., acting as an antenna (or it could act as a broadcast antenna, though connected to a ground screw I’m not sure what it would broadcast). Either way, the Entreq as an antenna can’t act as a path for ground currents, it can only pick up or broadcast a signal that presumably isn’t what you want to hear, i.e., noise. Hope that helps. esldude, wgscott, plissken and 2 others 5 One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature. Link to comment
fas42 Posted July 11, 2017 Share Posted July 11, 2017 Ummm - can someone get rid of this rubbish, please ... Link to comment
Popular Post Jud Posted July 11, 2017 Popular Post Share Posted July 11, 2017 2 hours ago, lasker98 said: I'm no scientist but I would guess that a main part of any experiment is actually physically performing the experiment at some point. Not just writing theories about why it can't be. A really central part of scientific experimentation, as it is of any reasonably complex activity, is planning. As you can imagine, you don’t want to waste time and money going off in lots of fruitless directions. So it is essential to eliminate the things you know are impossible before actually performing the experiment(s). Are scientists always 100% right about what is possible and what isn’t? No, but they have a pretty good record overall. And pretty much all the exploratory work on the electrical stuff we’re talking about here was done in the 1800s or even earlier, so we’re not talking about an area of unknowns or controversy. Sure there are areas of controversy about specific topics in audio/electronic engineering. But about stuff like how current flows and what “ground” is in a circuit? Not so much. wgscott, mansr and sarvsa 3 One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature. Link to comment
89reksal Posted July 11, 2017 Share Posted July 11, 2017 4 minutes ago, Jud said: From what you have written, it seems to me you have the idea that there would be current flowing to the Entreq box. But current can’t just flow *to* a box in the air, it must flow *through* it. The ground in that case would be the *return path* for the current in a *circuit*. A single wire to a box connected to nothing else provides no return path, thus no circuit, thus no current flowing to/through the box. I think you may have misread my post (I'm assuming you're referring to the post I gave a possible idea on how the box may work?).I actually question whether instead of current flowing to the Entreq as most of us seem to have been assuming, it's actually current flowing from the Entreq to the ground of the attached device, with the contents of the box somehow providing the current source in conjunction with the noise signal (taking into consideration that those noise measurements are valid). This current flowing to Entreq would have to be the situation if people believe noise is the cause (noise somehow being picked up by the Entreq acting as an antenna and being fed back to the device through the ground), so my idea doesn't seem so far fetched to me. 1 hour ago, lasker98 said: 1 hour ago, plissken said: You are now replying to me and you have reached beyond your technical limits. As for rudeness, I guess we have a different definition of rudeness. Link to comment
fas42 Posted July 11, 2017 Share Posted July 11, 2017 I've talked about about getting convincing sound here quite a bit - going from that quality to standard stereo sound, and back again has always been in the area where these grounding boxes appear to do their "magic". So, if I had a system where I could reliably switch between conventional stereo, and convincing playback, just by having such a box not connected versus linked in, then that would be all the "data" I would need - why it's having the positve effect for that particular system may take much, much longer to understand ... . Link to comment
Popular Post jabbr Posted July 11, 2017 Popular Post Share Posted July 11, 2017 6 hours ago, Cornan said: This would be fine if I asked about how physics works. In this thread I would like to hear thoughts and plausible ideas how grounding boxes might work. If you are 100% sure that they do not work I just see no point why you want to post anything at all. There is a lot of back and forth. Are you interested in scientific discussion of grounding boxes? Central to a scientific explanation is disproof of the null hypothesis. That is a scientist will start out with the hypothesis that the grounding box doesn't do anything and then attempt to prove this hypothesis wrong. This may seem counterintuitive to the non-scientist but is essential to the notion of falsifiability. So start with this. Perhaps you aren't interested in a scientific explanation however. This is OK. There are questions that are not scientific. For example "what is the best way to behave to ensure that I will get into heaven?" This is not a scientific question, rather a religious question. It would be wrong to answer that "heaven doesn't exist according to physics" Physics has nothing to answer that question. So let me ask the question: Do you want a scientific answer to the question: how does the grounding box work? If not a scientific answer then what type of answer are you looking for? semente, Jud and wgscott 3 Custom room treatments for headphone users. Link to comment
fas42 Posted July 11, 2017 Share Posted July 11, 2017 7 hours ago, plissken said: I think the hardest thing for Cornan to potentially have to come to grips with is that the grounding box may be adding noise to the system and it may be his preference. I know when I first showed him the measurements of the box that his reaction was visceral and very object to it. This is almost certainly not the case. However it may be working in the electrical sphere, the benefit of such approaches is that the audible "noise level" is reduced - that is, more of the detail within the recording can be heard, what's heard is more 'pleasant', and the volume can be increased with "less cringing". Very, very few systems are capable of revealing the full detail that's been captured in most recordings - I suspect the naysayers here would have setups that would be guilty of this, and so are unlikely to hear the benefits of fine tuning their systems in this fashion. Link to comment
plissken Posted July 11, 2017 Share Posted July 11, 2017 1 hour ago, esldude said: Not a bad idea. To the OP. Do you have a tuner? Connect a wire from the antenna connection of the tuner to the jack on the Entreq. See how well it works. If the hinted at principles of operation are in effect, the Entreq will ground and absorb any signals the tuner needs. That's funny. I was thinking of connect it to a 50 Ohm BNC and see if you can get a terrestrial broadcast. Link to comment
Popular Post 89reksal Posted July 11, 2017 Popular Post Share Posted July 11, 2017 31 minutes ago, Jud said: A really central part of scientific experimentation, as it is of any reasonably complex activity, is planning. As you can imagine, you don’t want to waste time and money going off in lots of fruitless directions. So it is essential to eliminate the things you know are impossible before actually performing the experiment(s). Are scientists always 100% right about what is possible and what isn’t? No, but they have a pretty good record overall. And pretty much all the exploratory work on the electrical stuff we’re talking about here was done in the 1800s or even earlier, so we’re not talking about an area of unknowns or controversy. Also from what I remember from my school years, probably the first step in any experiment is developing a hypothesis. Then the experiment(s) are done to prove or dis-prove the hypothesis. In our Entreq example, would you agree that the most basic starting point would be a) they do make an audible difference or b) no, they don't make an audible difference? From there, the most logical next step would be to perform an experiment to prove or dis-prove the hypothesis. My point is that the experiment required to do this is actually testing the product first hand as a start. I don't think many scientific advances have come about by people just writing about how something can't be. I believe this site has devolved into more about the writing about how something can't work rather than the true scientific approach, which should involve an open mind. For people who can seem obsessed with measurements, blind, double-blind and God knows what else, it seems funny to me how little actual first hand experience is considered. Apparently, it's not considered at all by a large part of our community. Lastly, do you honestly believe that everything to be known about electrical theory is already discovered based on work from the 1800's or earlier? You don't think there's a possibility that there may things remaining to be discovered or revised? Wladimir and Teresa 2 Link to comment
plissken Posted July 11, 2017 Share Posted July 11, 2017 24 minutes ago, lasker98 said: As for rudeness, I guess we have a different definition of rudeness. I'm just pointing out a fact. You're being a jerk in a really snotty reply to me and at the same time exposing your lack of technical understanding. The Entreq has nothing to do with ground. It's an Antenna. sarvsa 1 Link to comment
jabbr Posted July 11, 2017 Share Posted July 11, 2017 5 minutes ago, fas42 said: This is almost certainly not the case. However it may be working in the electrical sphere, the benefit of such approaches is that the audible "noise level" is reduced - that is, more of the detail within the recording can be heard, what's heard is more 'pleasant', and the volume can be increased with "less cringing". This would be an example of a magical explanation, the electrical sphere perhaps being infused with magic? I take it that this would be an acceptable answer? There is nothing wrong with magic. I find it very entertaining and audio is also entertainment! Custom room treatments for headphone users. Link to comment
Popular Post Jud Posted July 11, 2017 Popular Post Share Posted July 11, 2017 30 minutes ago, lasker98 said: I think you may have misread my post (I'm assuming you're referring to the post I gave a possible idea on how the box may work?).I actually question whether instead of current flowing to the Entreq as most of us seem to have been assuming, it's actually current flowing from the Entreq to the ground of the attached device, with the contents of the box somehow providing the current source in conjunction with the noise signal (taking into consideration that those noise measurements are valid). This current flowing to Entreq would have to be the situation if people believe noise is the cause (noise somehow being picked up by the Entreq acting as an antenna and being fed back to the device through the ground), so my idea doesn't seem so far fetched to me. Hi lasker. It doesn’t really matter if you want the box to be a source or destination for current. It can’t be either. I’ve already talked about why it can’t be a destination for current. If it were a source of current in a self-contained box, you are very familiar with that situation: it would be a battery. And notice how batteries always have two terminals? That is because electrical current must flow *through* the battery, not just *from* it. So even if the Entreq box were some kind of battery, without both positive and negative connections there can’t be any current flow. So where would a signal come from? From the single wire running to the box and anything conductive in the box connected to that wire, which will act as an antenna the way I described in my previous message. (If there’s nothing in the box connected to the wire, you will be able to remove the box and get exactly the same effect from the wire alone. Even if something in the box is connected to the wire, when you remove the box you still have an antenna, just a different one.) semente and plissken 2 One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature. Link to comment
fas42 Posted July 11, 2017 Share Posted July 11, 2017 6 hours ago, Cornan said: This would be fine if I asked about how physics works. In this thread I would like to hear thoughts and plausible ideas how grounding boxes might work. If you are 100% sure that they do not work I just see no point why you want to post anything at all. Ummm, there is no such thing as perfectly connecting to earth, the vast body of soil and mineral underfoot - if I were to insert a massive structure of excellently conducting material deep into the the subsoil where I lived, with an expertly designed connecting web of of cables, capable of having minimal impedance at every frequency of interest, then, I might get close ... The usual practice of hooking any old bit of wire to a metal terminal in the home is an extremely limp imitation of doing this, by any measure. Link to comment
fas42 Posted July 12, 2017 Share Posted July 12, 2017 11 minutes ago, jabbr said: This would be an example of a magical explanation, the electrical sphere perhaps being infused with magic? I take it that this would be an acceptable answer? There is nothing wrong with magic. I find it very entertaining and audio is also entertainment! I'm referring to the electrical sphere of interest, that is, any and everything that by any means can cause an electrical perturbation - you know, jump on an electrical cable, and one will be able to see electrical activity, if you use an appropriate measuring instrument. This is the arena where some of the audible problems are possibly being addressed. Link to comment
Ralf11 Posted July 12, 2017 Share Posted July 12, 2017 4 minutes ago, fas42 said: ...jump on an electrical cable, and one will be able to see electrical activity, if you use an appropriate measuring instrument. what would be an appropriate measuring instrument? Link to comment
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