Let's talk about SOTM SMS-200 ULTRA

[HardrockInMiniMac]

This is the advise I was looking for, mfin. 

 

Yes, I forgot to mention that DLAN is PowerLan and I suspect them for a while to add noise depending on the time of the day.

I agree I should keep them away from my stereo.

 

 

 

[HardrockInMiniMac]

If I put a WIFI Antenna on the SOTM SMS 200 and connect to the PowerLAN WiFI would that reduce the PowerLAN noise as it just comes through cable but not through WIFI? Sorry, might be a stupid question, but I must understand the difference between WIFI and LAN in Hifi and what is the better way forward...? 

[mfin]

Ok, there are 3 ways...

 

ONE

LAN, straightforward, router, possibly switches (you might think of as hubs) all connected with LAN Cables.

- condition is that you can get a physical cable to everything

- there are tweaks people do to try improve things, as the cable you'd plug into your SMS-200 is electrically connecting it to all the network's cabling and switches and router (just a very simplified way of looking at it)

 

TWO

LAN, with Powerline

- same as ONE, but when you can't physically get a cable to one room, you might put a Powerline adapter in another room, the Lan cable of which plugs into your router or one of your switches, and a second Powerline adapter in your room where your hifi is has a Lan cable coming out of it into your SMS-200

- Powerline adapters can work great, no real setup needed

- Powerline adapters are noisy things, with some power amps you can feed nothing to them, just have them on, and put your ear to the speaker and you can actually hear all sorts of low level noise coming out (just an indicator of the fact that they are noisy, and in this example, if you put the powerline adapters out, hey presto, the noise is gone)

- this noise can potentially have effect on all your other equipment

 

THREE

Lan, with Wireless Network Bridge

- same as ONE, and achieves what TWO does, this time by having a lan cable plugged into your SMS-200 the other end of which is plugged into a Wireless Network Bridge (of course, preferably a good one) which connects wirelessly to your wireless router.

- advantage here is that even though you can't physically get a cable to your SMS-200 as in example ONE, you have now effectively done it via a Wireless Network Bridge instead of noisy Powerline Adapters

- some people, even though the COULD do example ONE, choose to do this very thing for their streamer, because the physical Lan cable going into the SMS-200 is no longer a physical electrical connection to all the lan cabling, switches, router and devices in the house

- you can John Swenson shunt quite a few Wireless Network Bridges such as the ASUS one I mentioned.

- also, some people will instead of running a lan cable from Wireless Network Bridge straight to the SMS-200, will put a switch such as a Netgear GS105 in the middle (John Swenson shunt can be done too), so that would look like Wireless Network Bridge with Lan Cable into Switch (*port 1), with another Lan Cable out of the switch (*port 5) and into the SMS-200.

- I've starred the port numbers there are arguments for using

- the other ports you would leave empty, so that switch is only used for the SMS-200

 

 

...I would rather do ONE or THREE, anything but Powerline Adapters for hifi really! Even someone who has a non-streaming setup with no network requirements, if they have Powerline Adapters (maybe to connect their Sky box or something) in the vicinity it is not good for the hifi. Way worse than the presence of a bunch of switch mode power supplies in my experience

 

I don't know if any of that helps?

It depends on system to system, network to network, ears to ears, etc, so, some people will really be hearing the benefits of better approaches, some might not.

 

Also, there are more and more approaches which can be done, Lan isolators based on transformers are interesting, they are effectively something that sits inline with a lan cable effectively letting it work, but electrically the wires are not directly connected anymore. Also, you get people who use FMCs, a couple of boxes which let you replace a lan cable with a lan cable which has a stretch of fibre optic in the middle of it (layman's terms example), because that stops the direct electrical connection too (light instead), but of course the electrical supply to the FMCs is then an issue.

 

There is so so much of this stuff to get your head around!! Personally, I'd avoid Powerline adapters if you can.

[HardrockInMiniMac]

Your advise is very highly appreciated here. I can hear you and I listen to the "no PowerLine" point as I am exactly that clear about some other aspects of HIFI that are non-debatable to me. I like clear opinions. 

 

My house got ferro-concrete ceiling between ground level and 1st level. 1st level contains the office and the Router. Ground level got the living room and the HIFI. So I must use PowerLAN as WIFI does not work from 1st level down to the ground floor, even repeaters are weak and definitely too weak for HD streaming (amazon prime, AppleTV etc.). 

 

So there is a PowerLAN output with WIFI in the living room and it is pretty fast for the above mentioned use.

 

However, MacMini and NAS are connected to a switch which is connected to the PowerLAN adapter and that is where the problem starts as this switch also connects TV, SkyBox, AppleTV, and Playstation and I am sure that affects not only the digital chain but also my turntable performance.

 

Most of these devices can use Wireless as well. So I could as well forget about all the cables and only run SOTM SMS200 by cable -or- I can supply SOTM wireless some way and leave all the rest on the PowerLAN / Switch hub.

 

It's really annoying. What would you do?

Chris

 

 

[HardrockInMiniMac]

Just proving the desaster: In this moment I am hearing my IPhone 8 as Roon endpoint without cables just wireless - much better than my standard.

 

So PowerLAN and all the other devices are a signifant downgrade to digital HIFI.

 

Damn it...

Chris

[mfin]

Ah, ok, I know what I'd do if the wifi between floors is a no go.

 

Get a lan cable run between the floors, it can be done either within the wall or if not out and down the side of the house. If you do it you can maybe do two, so they can be used for different things. You can do it between sockets on the wall if you have to.

 

Then you can do the wired approach to a switch (or same thing twice)

 

It also brings in possibilities of all sorts, like putting a Wireless Access Point downstairs for wifi access if you want wifi downstairs for other things.

 

(Or... stick with what you have, just use Powerline and forget it all, but if your hifi is a good one, do the wiring, it is cheap stuff really, maybe you can do it yourself?).

 

[jcn3]

do you have coax between the two locations?  if so, they you can use moca adapters.  great performance this way.  just would need to shunt the adapter power supplies to minimize their noise (or use lps).

[HardrockInMiniMac]

Yep, there is TV outlets in every room if you mean this by coax..?

 

[HardrockInMiniMac]

16 hours ago, mfin said:

Get a good Wireless Bridge, something like the Asus EA-AC87 is good if you have a router with 5Ghz Wireless AC, you could do a John Swenson ground shunt on it and on the switch if you like too.

 

 

 

So the PowerLan adapter in my living can offer 5Ghz WIFI and does. What about buying this Asus Bridge, connecting it through WIFI with the PowerLAN adapter and then run a CAT to SOTM SMS200?

 

My only concern would be the Asus PSU in this case. Any chance to run these bridges on battery for a decent time? Just because I am flattened right now by my iPhone 8 running as a roon endpoint and outperforming my standard setup by arms length. 

[jcn3]

yep, the type of cable you would use to connect your cable box.  if you have home runs to a single location, connect the coax cable from the office to the one to the living room.  then can use the moca adapters: https://www.amazon.com/Actiontec-Bonded-Ethernet-Adapter-ECB6200S02/dp/B013J7OBUU/ref=dp_ob_title_ce

[klaus]

I have not Yet setup my SOTM SMS-200ultra/SPS-500 to connect  with eithernet to a music storage device and use presently an USB stick directly into the SMS. Could someone comment how significant the  SQ penalty is with this USB solution?

Has someone tried a Innuos Zenith into an SMS vie eithernet cable?

[HardrockInMiniMac]

Same question here: Why not adding USB WLAN stick to the SMS200?

 

Any disadvantage?

[mfin]

7 hours ago, HardrockInMiniMac said:

 

So the PowerLan adapter in my living can offer 5Ghz WIFI and does. What about buying this Asus Bridge, connecting it through WIFI with the PowerLAN adapter and then run a CAT to SOTM SMS200?

 

My only concern would be the Asus PSU in this case. Any chance to run these bridges on battery for a decent time? Just because I am flattened right now by my iPhone 8 running as a roon endpoint and outperforming my standard setup by arms length. 

 

As I said earlier just the presence of Powerline adapters (even if not being used to connect the hifi) is bad.

 

Why would you want to run the Asus on a battery? If you mean because you don't like it's switch mode psu then you can always do a Jon Swenson shunt.

 

Going from wireless to wireless bridge is one thing, but going from wired to powerline to wireless to wireless bridge is not something I'd want to do.

 

Why not cable it from one floor to another as suggested, OR, just try it with a cable going between windows just to see. You might try it and hear no difference. It depends on your ears, the system, all sorts really. In a high end system with good ears you would hear the differences I think. Trying a cable is what I'd do, it's cheap, and you can prove if there's a difference you can hear before installing the cable for real. (Then if you want to go further you can try things like I mentioned in example THREE)

[HardrockInMiniMac]

Thx, here is what is going on:

 

The PowerLAN Adapter is on a different circuit. I run an exclusive line from the main switch to my stereo on its own fuse and phase. How will bad noise cross over to my stereo? If so then WiFi and Stereo do not go together anywhere in the world.

 

But I will run a couple of tests with the Adapter plugged in and unpluggged. 

 

I have concrete walls and ceiling with floor heating, I cannot run cables through walls or floors like in a cottage made of studs, insulation and drywall. I will certainly not run cables outside the house.

 

I am looking for a technical solution which is HIFI compliant and brings LAN from one level of the house to another. I agree that PowerLAN is less than perfect.

 

 

[mfin]

It sounds like you are truly limited then and I can see why you run powerline, I can also see why you said about a possibility of letting the powerline broadcast a wifi signal which you then use a Wireless Bridge to pick up from, in that I can tell why you dreamt it up (and it might be better I don't know, BUT, the powerline will still be present by the sounds of it, polluting the mains.

 

If you can get hold of some cable, I would certainly try a direct cable which can be passed from window to window. Why you might ask. Well, it would establish for you straight away whether you can hear the difference, having all the powerlines unplugged. So, it would establish that if you can hear a difference with that method, you could possibly try another method like you mentioned above (in which you'd try to have that powerline adapter which is downstairs in a room or two away if possible).

 

Try the cable method, you can even just make one just to try with some half decent Cat 5 and plus some RJ45 ends on it, running in order:

orange and white / orange / green and white / blue / blue and white / green / brown and white / brown

You'd need a cheap rj45 crimp tool off ebay and can practice on some little bits of cable.

 

I really think you should try something else just to establish if you can hear it, some people in some systems can't, and in other systems it can be quite obvious and most people will hear it. Don't go on the fact you've read there are better ways that sound better, at least go experience something to find out.

[HardrockInMiniMac]

I will have my electrican to run 2 CAT7 cables through the ceiling close the outer wall, that way floor heating won't be affected. I will then try both methods: Direct CAT-cable connection and WLAN Bridge to WLAN Receiver and then CAT to SMS-200.

 

Will see,

Chris

[GregCA]

I am new to Computer Audio forum, but I have participated in other audio forums in the past.  Most my audio experience has been 2 channel analog along with home theater integration.  I have what I consider to be a resolving 2 channel setup. 

 

I have been ripping vinyl to digital (when I get a chance), so I invested in a play back system to stream my digital rips.   I currently have a USB direct setup:

 

Win 7 64-bit -> JRiver MC23 -> USB (Wywires Platinum) -> Wyred 4 Sound USB Recovery (LPS) -> USB (Paul Pang PPA short USB) -> Exogal COmet DAC.

 

I have my music on an external hard drive.  I had it connected directly to the computer, but moved the drive to my router so I could serve tunes over the network using DLNA.  That was in preparation to try a network renderer.  

 

I have researched to where I have analysis paralysis.  I have looked at SOTM and Sonore offerings as my two possible options. 

 

I was thinking that I could maybe start with a standard SOTM  SMS-200 and use my existing LPS to hear if network streaming sounds better than USB direct.  I can play JRIver (from computer) or BubblePUNP (from phone) to play tunes to my system through the network vs USB direct.  

 

I have a couple questions if someone does not mind sharing their experience.

 

1. Does the Wyred 4 Sound USB Recovery improve the sound of the standard SMS-200 and would that combo be close to the audio quality of the SMS-200Ultra since the Wyred re-clocks?
2. Since the SMS-200Ultra has an improved clock, is the Wyred 4 Sound USB Recovery not needed?

 

If I like network streaming then I can consider other changes like Roon, and improved equipment for streaming.

 

Thanks in advance for advice to a streaming newbie.

 

[HardrockInMiniMac]

I will test my brand new Ultra over the weekend with and without my USB tweak in the chain and let you know. 

 

I will compare it to a midrange Audioquest USB-cable and check if ifi has an effect.

 

Will let everyone know,

 

Chris

[GregCA]

Hi Chris,

 

Thanks for the reply.  I will keep track of this thread and continue to educate myself by reading other threads.  I guess my main concern is if I do not get a suitable streaming device that matches the level of my other components will I know the full potential?

 

Greg

[HardrockInMiniMac]

Hi Greg, does CA stand for the country in the north? 

 

Well, you are right, the weakest part defines the quality of the chain. I am amongst the many on this forum who have spent countless hours reading and I truly love this forum, because nearly all of the people treat others respectful, it is really good education and there are a lot of experts around and I stop by quite frequently. 

 

Since I am also checking out other forums I began to realize how little they understand about Computer Audio and that this Forum here is well ahead of the game. 

 

Keep posting and searching, the people here have helped me a lot finding my way around and I would consider myself an amateur to Computer Audio and I love it to try out, what is out there.

 

I go trial and error and it works just fine,

 

Chris

[GregCA]

Hi Chris,

 

GregCA was simply because GregC was taken, and that is the handle I generally use.  I am in California, just next to Monterey. 

 

I have read the posts here, and the forum members do seem to be respectful of each other. 

 

I am an analog dinosaur, yet my career has been spent in technology.  I appreciate how computers have become integrated into audio.  I have a lot of time and money invested into my 2 channel setup, and I have spent many years to get to where I am happy with my current setup. 

 

Network streaming makes a lot of sense to me, especially the convenience of not having to fire up a laptop when I feel like playing tunes.  The one downside seems to be the inability to stream audio from any audio source on the computer to a DAC (like you can with USB direct).

 

Greg

[HardrockInMiniMac]

Got my sMS200 ultra and sPS-500 installed today. This is a significant step forward on all accounts.

 

Question: When using Roon Ready, do I need to fine tune

 

- buffer

- resync delay

 

settings in Roon or in the SOtM menu?

 

Best

Chris 

[octaviars]

35 minutes ago, HardrockInMiniMac said:

Question: When using Roon Ready, do I need to fine tune

 

- buffer

- resync delay

 

settings in Roon or in the SOtM menu?

 

I have not changed anything on my setup with SOtM in Roon mode.

[Dr Tone]

57 minutes ago, HardrockInMiniMac said:

Question: When using Roon Ready, do I need to fine tune

 

- buffer

- resync delay

 

Only you can answer those questions, these are very system specific settings.

 

Does your DAC switch sample rates or formats fast enough that you don't need a resync delay?  ie) Is the start of the song missing on sample rate change? 

 

Is the audio playing back with anomalies like clicks pops or drop outs?  If so you may need to increase the buffer.

[HardrockInMiniMac]

Exzellent, now I understand what buffer is for...

 

It is all working fine.

 

Chris