Gill Audio Elise DAC, Berkeley Audio Alpha and the dreaded PS Audio DLIII "killer DAC"

[barrows]

Telstar, I was reading your post too fast! You are correct, like I said, I have not done a specific comparison with the Plinius.

 

[aljordan]

Bryan wrote: I am surprised that you find the Ayre rolled off at both extremes.

 

I don't find the Ayre rolled off at both extremes compared to the tube DACs I've listened to, but in comparison to some other solid state DACs it does seem a bit rolled off. Actually, I have found the other Ayre gear I've heard to be very pleasant, but a little soft at the frequency extremes as well, and a little soft on micro-dynamics. It could have been that the gear was not suited to drive what it was being asked to drive, as it seems to get more soft as the load impedance got tougher. Or maybe that is just the way their no-negative-feedback designs tend to sound.

 

I'm sorry to hear that you are finding the DAC auditioning to be frustrating. I will say that if you are finding most of the stuff you are hearing to sound similar, an NOS DAC like the Havana will probably have more of a different feel than the other DACs you've heard. The Havana can be resold for a minimal loss if you try one and decide you don't like it. On Audiogon, they tend to sell for about $50 bucks less than their retail value. I can't guarantee you'll like it, but the Havana should different from an over sampling DAC. I thought it was a very refreshing sound, particularly after having been listening to the Benchmark for a while.

 

Alan

 

[bmckenney]

Alan, I have been thinking about that Havana for the longest time. I need a good interface for a Mac though. Maybe the hiface would work well. I'm trying to track down a hiface now so I can try some other DACs with my Mac.

 

I'm just not convinced the ULN2 or the Ayre is suitable.

 

Bryan

 

[Part-Time Audiophile]

Price is awesome, sound (to all reports) is great, what's not to like? For the USB-to-SPDIF, I'm gonna say it again: Legato from Analog Research Technology:

 

http://www.analogresearch-technology.net/LEGATO.html

 

You know, Yamamoto has a nice NOS tube DAC in the same range as the Ayre. There's also a non-tube version as well. Anyway, 6moons has a review:

 

http://www.sixmoons.com/audioreviews/yamamoto7/dac.html

 

[bmckenney]

Why get a Legato that costs $500 when the hiface is under $200? I see you have the hiface. I assume you had a Legato. It would seem you like the hiface better, but I know it can't be as simple as that since you're strongly in favor of the Legato. Are you forced to use the hiface because of the BADA?

 

Bryan

 

[Part-Time Audiophile]

I'd err on the side of an async USB interface that doesn't require special drivers. Yes, I have a HiFace and it sounds pretty good ... if it can get a lock. Works great with the Alpha and not at all with the PS Audio, for example. YMMV, and perhaps it was simply a driver issue supporting an older Mac ... but it does make me wonder if I'm getting the best bang for my buck. Berkeley suggests the Lynx card rather strongly, but I'm nervous about investing more cash in this clunker of a Mac.

 

Anyway, the Legato is on the way to see what's what with that. But given that I'm pretty much decided on an Alpha at this point, hi-res is more interesting to me. So, if/when Gordon releases the Wavelink (or whatever it's to be called), I'll probably order that too.

 

[bmckenney]

Scot, I contacted Pat at ART about the Legato. He said they are still waiting for front panels. Is the one you're getting furnished with a blank front panel? Also curious if you plan on using the BNC to RCA adapter.

 

Bryan

 

[Part-Time Audiophile]

Pat is definitely an experience. LOL. My understanding is that the Legato I'm getting is missing it's panel -- once they're in, I'm to send it back for fitment. As for the BNC thing -- that's actually one reason I got it. The Alpha only takes S/PDIF over optical or BNC coax. My PS Audio, by contrast, only takes S/PDIF over RCA coax -- which is why my HiFace is RCA. So, I'm currently running my HiFace into the Alpha with a BNC-to-RCA adapter. Not optimal, but in practice it turns out that it matters less than I've been led to believe.

 

That said, I'll have two USB-to-S/PDIF converters -- well, three actually, as I have a HagUSB sitting here too -- so I'll be able to do a shootout, which should be fun, even if my expectations of great differences are rather low.

 

The reason I'm suggesting the Legato (and putting my money where my mouth is) is because of jitter. The HiFace uses a PLL circuit (I think?) and the Legato uses async USB. I suspect that the Legato will prove the superior unit for that fact alone -- but time will tell. More later -- the Legato should arrive today or tomorrow.

 

[Part-Time Audiophile]

Pat is definitely an experience. LOL. My understanding is that the Legato I'm getting is missing it's panel -- once they're in, I'm to send it back for fitment. As for the BNC thing -- that's actually one reason I got it. The Alpha only takes S/PDIF over coax via BNC. My PS Audio, by contrast, only takes S/PDIF coax via RCA -- which is why my HiFace is RCA. So, I'm currently running my HiFace into the Alpha with a RCA-to-BNC adapter. Not optimal, but in practice it turns out that it matters less than I've been led to believe.

 

That said, I'll have two USB-to-S/PDIF converters -- well, three actually, as I have a HagUSB sitting here too -- so I'll be able to do a shootout, which should be fun, even if my expectations of great differences are rather low.

 

The reason I'm suggesting the Legato (and putting my money where my mouth is) is because of jitter. The HiFace uses a PLL circuit (I think?) and the Legato uses async USB. I suspect that the Legato will prove the superior unit for that fact alone -- but time will tell. More later -- the Legato should arrive today or tomorrow.

 

[Daphne]

Hi Scot:

If your interest is focused on hi-res, what advantage will the Legato offer since the unit will only work with one sampling rate - 44.1 kHz?

 

Daphne

 

[Part-Time Audiophile]

I think the Legato will not, ultimately, be my solution. That said, 99% of my music is "redbook". At some point, hi-res is going to be "the future", and that said, a hi-res solution is going to be required.

 

However, there are very good reasons to choose the Legato over the HiFace -- I think jitter reduction is one, but another would be for NOS DAC users, where hi-res isn't an option at all. Just a thought.

 

[barrows]

To BAD for making the SPDIF input on the Alpha BNC. It is very curious to me why anyone uses an RCA connector for SPDIF, regardless what any manufacturer says (including WBT) RCA connectors are not going to achieve a true 75 ohm interface, in addition the high mass of the pin on an RCA connector cannot be good for keeping a nice square waveform. I replaced the RCA SPDIF connector on my DL-III with a high quality (Amphenol) BNC connector, and there was a significant improvement in performance (my bel canto CD-1 used as a transport has both RCA and BNC digital outs). BTW, I would stay away from RCA-BNC and BNC-RCA adapters-you can get good digital cables like the Stereovox, Analysis Plus, or Nordost terminated anyway you need, with BNC one end and RCA on the other if necessary.

 

[bmckenney]

Scot, love to hear what you think of the Legato. Versus the hiface/adapter too. On the Alpha. I can't really order either of them until the ULN2 goes back for a refund next week. But come next week, I do want to bring in one of these adapters so I get better USB connections with the Mac, and some flexibilty to try other DACs.

 

Bryan

 

[kana813]

"To BAD for making the SPDIF input on the Alpha BNC. It is very curious to me why anyone uses an RCA connector for SPDIF, regardless what any manufacturer says (including WBT) RCA connectors are not going to achieve a true 75 ohm interface, in addition the high mass of the pin on an RCA connector cannot be good for keeping a nice square waveform. "

 

Pat has been saying this for a long time. In addition to the Legato, he installs a BNC on his SB3 and Duet mods.

 

I was disappointed to see RCA connectors for SPDIF instead of BNC on the PS Audio PWT & PWD.

 

[Part-Time Audiophile]

Assuming the Legato arrives in the next day or so, I'll do a head-to-head comparison between it and the HiFace -- and winner takes all.

 

[Part-Time Audiophile]

From what I can recall from my past experiences, the differences between RCA and BNC connectors are tiny and well within the margin of "listening error".

 

My comparison between the HiFace and the Legato will not be apples to apples as I don't have a BNC HiFace. That said, I'm not anticipating huge differences between the two units.

 

[kana813]

"I'm not anticipating huge differences between the two units."

 

Scot-

 

I've heard the Legato with a U-byte © cable.

 

With Streamlength firmware, a better clock, linear power and a true 75 ohm output stage, I think you'll hear a big difference.

 

Dan

 

 

 

[bmckenney]

Dan, what is the Streamlength firmware? Is that from ART for the Legato?

 

Bryan

 

[Part-Time Audiophile]

Mahalo, Dan!

 

A big difference? Well. I'm keeping an open mind. Since I have one on order, I suppose you could say I'm hedging my bets. Hope springs eternal ....

 

[Part-Time Audiophile]

"Streamlength" is the code that Gordon Rankin of Wavelength built which allows driver-less asynchronous USB audio playback from computers and is integral to his line of DACs. Great stuff and Gordon's licensed it to Ayre -- and now Analog Research Technologies (ART).

 

[bmckenney]

I thought it sounded like a Wavelength product name. Does Pat use it with the Legato? I know the Legato is async but that's all I know.

 

I also don't know if the USB cable is important. Pat say's he is not sure. Might not be important with his Legato. I was kind of hoping Pat would have experimented with USB cables and found that the connection matters and that hard wiring works wonders and he would include a pig tail hard wired USB cable. He seems like just the perfectly crazy kind of guy to come up with something like that :-)

 

Bryan

 

[Part-Time Audiophile]

Bryan, how's that Torus? Looks like quite the monster. I'm wondering if a better conditioner isn't in my future ....

 

[bmckenney]

Scot, it would be easier for me, but a longer read for you, to just go here:

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=76226.0

 

I promised James Tanner at Bryston that I'd write something up because he got me a dream deal. Maybe I went a bit overboard on the writeup. My review isn't much help to most people because I don't think many people would be going for 240V dedicated circuits... even though it's dead simple to convert an existing 120V to 240V. Anyway, my comments apply to the BAL version of the Torus only.

 

Bryan

 

[barrows]

Kana. I was with PS Audio at the time. The decision to go with an RCA was a big point of contention. In the end the decision to go with RCA was made on the basis that most other people do it, and alot of people already own expensive digital interconnects with RCA terminations. I was on the side pushing for BNC, but we lost out. In any case, the best performance with the PWD/PWT comes with the I2S interface-this is a no contest difference when one listens to it.

BTW, if one is interfacing either the PWT or PWD with another component via SPDIF, you might want to consider having the other component modded for an I2S interface. This may not be possible for all components, but I know Rick Cullen at Cullen Circuits can add an I2S interface to a lot of digital products that will match PS Audios' spec.