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[machinehead]

Great info, thanks Barry.

 

I guess I was thinking of decoupling visually and maybe not mechanically.

 

I can see my flat bottom speaker on my second story wood floor. The second story wood floor then becomes a large

vibrating transducer due to the large contact patch with the speaker. When you elevate it with the spikes or bearings it

now have a infintissimally small contact patch compared with the surface area the the entire bottom of the speaker and

will help avoid the booming bass that can occur with a suspended wood floor in the situation.

 

So yes it is more solidly coupled with the floor mechanically, but shares less surface area contact which reduces unwanted

resonances of the floor and speaker coupling.

 

Back to the ball bearings. If my speaker were never drilled from the manufacturer for spikes how do you get the bearings

to keep from rolling, do the tiles have some divots to place the bearings in? Sounds cool, I would like to try it. Maybe a vibrapod cone might work as well?

 

 

 

[machinehead]

Barry, I love the DIY isolation rack!

 

Thanks for sharing!

 

[Guest]

Regardless of one's view of spikes, cones, etc., these devices are couplers not decouplers. They can be used to rigidly connect something to the surface supported it.

 

Interesting view.

 

I always thought a decoupler was something that works to isolate vibrations from one object to the next. For example if I have a board and tape a component to it via 2-way tape I would be coupling them so that any vibrations frequency would pass through both somewhat unscathed. Rubber pads like Vibrapods for example couple a component to with the idea in mind to lower the resonant frequency of the component so that vibrations will have null affect. Cones like Black Diamond Racing cones for example "try" to isolate the component from vibrations coming through from passing through to the component by narrowing down the vibration frequencies to a single point of contact. Cones are not meant to couple but are designed to isolate object A from object B's vibrations. A well designed cone with the proper material will try to cancel out the vibrations within the cone itself to some degree which lessens the affects of vibrations even more thereby isolating even further.

 

With that said, what often works best is a combination of coupling and isolation. Isolating a component from external vibrations and at the same time coupling it to something in order to lower its own internal resonance's for example transformer resonances. Many people try to dampen Caps and Tubes for example by 'coupling' them to Rings of some sort or material like Blutak in order to lower the resonant frequency. Others try to decouple their tubes as best they can by raising them off the tube socket as to reduce vibrations from the component from traveling into the tube.

 

Just my .02

 

 

 

[machinehead]

Barry seems like the inner tube approach should actually yield isolation in the vertical and horizontal axis based on its

ease of movement in both directions, especially when only partially inflated. In the same thought I would think using a set of vibrapods under a piece of granite would have a similar effect on a set of speakers for much cheaper than the Townsend product.

 

[machinehead]

Dynobot,

 

I tend to agree with you. But I think there can be different uses and functions. It think these can be blurred by marketing.

 

The small contact patch of the pointed end isolates the component sitting one it from the surface at the large end of the cone.

 

I have read about people using it as another function. Take a cone and say use a funnel as an analogy. The big end of the cone is like the large end of a funnel, gathering vibrations. The small end is then used to "sink" those vibrations away from the component to the surface below, providing it is vibrating less and at a different frequency, say a granite surface. I have seen this done on CD players, where 2 cones are turned tip up and one is under the CD drive turned large flat end up and tip down to sink the vibration of the CD drive out of the unit.

 

With the case of speaker spikes on a carpeted concrete surface, I think the idea is to proved a positive connection through the carpet and pad, into the concrete slab to give the speaker a solid base to work from. Thereby allowing the drivers to function efficiently.

 

 

 

[iamimdoc]

Audio Research Ref 2-> Bryston 4b (X2) -> Magneplanar 20

 

Sources were Audio Research CD-1

and

are now VPI TNT Jr- Graham 1.5T-Benz Micro Ref using custom 2 chassis Tom Tutay phono stage, PC # 1 with Media Monkey via Airport Express streamimg wirelessly, soon to be replaced with PC #2 with Media Monkey via USB DAC.

 

Small laptop at sitting position uses VNC to control either PC. ITouch can also be used although it is limited in functionality compared to PC (but much smaller, lighter).

 

Cabinets are custom built mahoghany, tiger maple and ebony by RLH designs of Houston.

 

Bench and red chair are reversed in position for photo. Photo of speakers in room by Albert Porter ©.

 

[machinehead]

Although pricey, here is a system with quite a bit if science and engineering behind it. They started doing work for national labs and aerospace; like making isolation platforms for electron microscopes, now have some audio applications.

With a resonanance frequeancy of 2.5Hz, it is well outside of the music range. For more money, they make a platform

with a resonance frequency that is .5Hz:

 

http://www.minusk.com/content/vibration_isolation_systems_applications/audio-reproduction.html

 

[bdiament]

Hi machinehead,

 

"I can see my flat bottom speaker on my second story wood floor. The second story wood floor then becomes a large

vibrating transducer due to the large contact patch with the speaker. When you elevate it with the spikes or bearings it

now have a infintissimally small contact patch compared with the surface area the the entire bottom of the speaker and

will help avoid the booming bass that can occur with a suspended wood floor in the situation.

 

So yes it is more solidly coupled with the floor mechanically, but shares less surface area contact which reduces unwanted

resonances of the floor and speaker coupling."

 

 

Actually, I'm more concerned with vibrations entering the speaker (and crossover) from the floor much more than I am with the opposite.

 

I believe it is a mistake to believe the diminished contact surface area will necessarily make for less efficient transfer of vibrations. My experience has been that in fact, the more "solid" connection offered by spikes or cones increases the efficiency of energy transfer.

 

 

"Back to the ball bearings. If my speaker were never drilled from the manufacturer for spikes how do you get the bearings

to keep from rolling, do the tiles have some divots to place the bearings in? Sounds cool, I would like to try it. Maybe a vibrapod cone might work as well?"

 

Being drilled for spikes doesn't matter. The bottom surface however, must be extremely smooth and very hard - much more than typical speaker cabinets. This is why I suggest using a large, smooth marble tile, smooth side down, in contact with the balls of the roller bearings.

 

The bases of well designed roller bearings will have bowl shaped depressions. The ball sits in the depression and as it gets displaced, the slope of the bowl re-centers the ball.

The idea is to have maximum freedom of motion for the ball with minimal damping on that motion.

 

The roller bearings are used in trios, each set arranged in the largest equilateral triangle that will fit under what is being supported (for example, the marble tile beneath the speaker).

 

In my opinion, vibrapods are better than spikes or cones and better than nothing at all but they only provide perhaps 3 or 5% of what a good set of roller bearings or a good air bearing does.

 

Best regards,

Barry

www.soundkeeperrecordings.com

www.barrydiamentaudio.com

 

[bdiament]

Hi machinehead,

 

"Barry, I love the DIY isolation rack!"

 

Thank you.

I call it the Enjoyyourshelf rack.

It uses an air bearing and a set of my Hip Joints roller bearings on each shelf.

 

It is the world's first piece of furniture with a fully independent suspension!

;-}

 

Unlike other racks that utilize air support (none of which -to my knowledge at least - offers this on each shelf), this one allows adjustment of inflation without first having to disconnect and remove the gear. Inflation can be adjusted while the music plays.

 

The pair I had made (by a good friend with a talent for turning wood into art) has enabled wonderful improvements in the system.

 

Best regards,

Barry

www.soundkeeperrecordings.com

www.barrydiamentaudio.com

 

[bdiament]

Hi Dynobot,

 

"I always thought a decoupler was something that works to isolate vibrations from one object to the next. For example if I have a board and tape a component to it via 2-way tape I would be coupling them so that any vibrations frequency would pass through both somewhat unscathed. Rubber pads like Vibrapods for example couple a component to with the idea in mind to lower the resonant frequency of the component so that vibrations will have null affect. Cones like Black Diamond Racing cones for example "try" to isolate the component from vibrations coming through from passing through to the component by narrowing down the vibration frequencies to a single point of contact. Cones are not meant to couple but are designed to isolate object A from object B's vibrations. A well designed cone with the proper material will try to cancel out the vibrations within the cone itself to some degree which lessens the affects of vibrations even more thereby isolating even further.

 

With that said, what often works best is a combination of coupling and isolation. Isolating a component from external vibrations and at the same time coupling it to something in order to lower its own internal resonance's for example transformer resonances. Many people try to dampen Caps and Tubes for example by 'coupling' them to Rings of some sort or material like Blutak in order to lower the resonant frequency. Others try to decouple their tubes as best they can by raising them off the tube socket as to reduce vibrations from the component from traveling into the tube."

 

I believe it is a combination of misinformation from manufacturers (who perhaps do not know better or at worst are simply taking advantage of an opportunity for commerce) and echoes of this misinformation from "professional" audio reviewers and magazines.

 

It is not difficult to show that diminishing contact area does not diminish efficiency of vibration transfer and in fact, can often lead (as with the more rigid contact provided by cones and spikes ) to more efficient transfer of vibrations. If one places a component on cones/spikes on a shelf and vibrate the shelf, they can measure the vibrations in the component and show the cones have done absolutely nothing at all to prevent the transfer.

They can replace the cones with well designed mechanical low-pass filters, vibrate the shelf and show that the vibrations do not get past the filters.

 

My personal view of the idea of coupling to remove vibrations (often referred to as "draining") is another marketing-generated concept. As I see it, if something is being drained, the net result should be less of it in the place from which it is being drained. What I see with the use of couplers in audio is provision of different path for vibrations to travel but no effects whatsoever on the net quantity of said vibrations. That said, changing the path will change the sound. In my experience, such changes however, tend to be somewhat random in nature and one cannot expect a particular result, consistently and repeatably. All one can reliably expect is a change.

 

My experience is that good isolation devices, on the other hand, provide consistent and repeatable improvements in all areas of performance I know how to describe.

 

In sum, I've found that almost anything you put a component on -or on a component- will change its sound. Some may like the change and if it makes one happy, there is no argument against it. For my ears though, change is not the same as improvement.

 

All just my perspective, of course.

 

Best regards,

Barry

www.soundkeeperrecordings.com

www.barrydiamentaudio.com

 

[Christopher]

Hi Machinehead,

 

I’ve been using Soundocity outriggers for the past few months. The build quality is excellent and the finish of the product is superb. All of my expectations have been exceeded.

 

About the product that I’m using:

I purchased “straight end” outriggers with brass spikes in a black nickel finish (product # P/N SBN7-SE1.50). Each floor spike consists of a brass cone that has two parts. The upper part of the cone is permanently attached to the outrigger with threads that receive spiked tips for contact with the floor.

 

Spiked tips are offered in two sizes. The small size results in an overall cone height of 1.5”. The longer tapered spike tips result in an overall height of 2.12”.

 

In addition to the 1.5” version, I also ordered an extra set of longer 1.375” tips so that I could adjust the cone height up to 2.12” if needed. I ended up using the longer tips resulting in 2.12” cones. This helped bring tweeters up to my ear level when I’m seated in my normal listening position.

 

Attached is a close-up picture of the outriggers attached to one of my B&W CM-7 speakers. You can also see what the outriggers look like in pictures #2 and #3 in my system post. Photo #1 was taken before I installed the outriggers. For some reason, the speakers may look not level in all the pictures, but I can assure you that they are, indeed, perfectly level.

 

Personal considerations:

My primary reason for trying Soundocity outriggers was to make speaker leveling easier and more accurate. B&W CM-7 speakers come with spikes that screw into the bottom of each speaker. There are also locking nuts to secure the spikes in place after height adjustments are completed. Threaded receptacles for receiving each spike are recessed into the bottom of the speaker and they are indented from the corners of the speaker cabinet.

 

The floors in my apartment are wood parquet over a thick concrete slab. Even though construction is solid, the floors are not truly flat or level. I accept this as part of living in Manhattan. If I move a speaker an inch, I have to change the height of each spike to ensure a level speaker. Before getting the outriggers, leveling speakers and adjusting spikes was a long and tedious process. There is hardly enough space between the bottom of the speaker and the floor for my fingers. Fitting a wrench in the available space to gently tighten the locking nuts was painstaking and time consuming. If I could make the adjustments with the speaker upside down, it would be fast and easy. But to ensure a lever speaker, I had to tighten everything with the speaker in the final position.

 

If I only needed to move speakers once or twice, I could live with the challenges. However, I wanted to thoroughly explore speaker placement options and this involved a lot of listening and a lot of moving. After a few days of adjustments while face down on the floor, I started looking into plinths and outriggers.

 

Personal experience and results:

For me, Soundocity outriggers are a perfect solution for my needs. There are knobs on the corner of each outrigger that make leveling adjustments easy and accurate. Using a level that is placed on the top of each speaker, I can easily adjust the front, back, left and right heights with a few twists of each knob of the outriggers.

 

Priced at under $270 (including extra tips) for a pair of outriggers, Soundocity offers a solid product with outstanding build quality for the money. In terms of price to performance, they are an excellent value in my book. If you have similar needs, I highly recommend that you consider Soundocity outriggers. (Just for the record, I have no interest or affiliation)

 

Important note:

Soundocity outriggers must be attached to your speakers with bolts. If you do not have factory-installed receptacles that accommodate speaker spikes, you will need to drill holes in your speakers. This scares the heck out of me. If I did not already have factory-installed threads, I would not attempt to drill any holes in my speakers. Fortunately, B&W CM-7 speakers have pre-drilled threads.

 

I should also mention that Soundocity’s standard 1/4-20 installation bolts did not accommodate my factory threads on B&W CM-7 speakers. I discussed this with Paul at Soundocity and he was kind enough to send me custom M6 bolts to replace the standard 1/4-20 installation bolts. They worked perfectly and installation was fast and easy.

 

Quick note regarding contact vs isolation:

I’m glad that Barry raised the topic of coupling vs decoupling speakers (i.e., contact vs isolation). Opinions vary on this and I’m not sure there is a right or wrong approach. Personally, I use both approaches for different equipment.

 

I can’t report any issues or problems using the outriggers with spikes on my parquet floors. The subfloor is a thick concrete slab and there are no audible resonances or vibrations. If I had a plywood subfloor with conventional floor joists, I may feel differently. I’ve heard that the space between floor joists can create a resonance chamber. Fortunately, I do not have this problem.

 

Even though it’s not absolutely necessary, I also use an isolation platform for my subwoofer. I decided to isolate the sub for my neighbors. The product is made by Auralex and it works as advertized (http://www.auralex.com/sound_isolation_subdude/subdude.asp).

 

I’ll wrap things up here because this note is getting a bit long. Please let me know if you have any questions.

 

Best regards,

Chris

 

 

[bdiament]

Hi machinehead,

 

"Barry seems like the inner tube approach should actually yield isolation in the vertical and horizontal axis based on its

ease of movement in both directions, especially when only partially inflated. In the same thought I would think using a set of vibrapods under a piece of granite would have a similar effect on a set of speakers for much cheaper than the Townsend product."

 

My experience has been that while what you said is true in terms of the inner tube providing both vertical and horizontal isolation, it is considerably more efficient a filter in the vertical plane. Certainly, it does not match the horizontal compliance of a well designed set of roller bearings and hence, will be much more damped in its horizontal motion than in its vertical motion. I have found that the combination of the two can work extraordinarily well.

 

As to Vibrapods and granite, in my experience, the former are certainly better than nothing (and better than any set of cones/spikes I'm aware of), they only go a tiny fraction of the way that a good set of roller bearings or a good air bearing can go. A good child's bicycle inner tube costs less than a single Vibrapod so the pods don't win for expense either.

Granite is too heavy and has a tendency to ring. The former characteristic means it acts to store vibrational energy and then release it. Personally, I prefer something rigid but lower in mass, so there is less energy storage. Even 1" plywood will not store energy the same way and it will not ring.

 

The pods on granite or on plywood, will not - at least to my ears - get remotely close to what Townshend's very compliant speaker stands provide or to what a good set of roller bearings or an air bearing will. What the former provides is closer to the change I described in an earlier post. The Townshend devices and the bearings provide immediate and obvious improvements.

 

This of course, is only how I hear it.

Given the same comparisons I've made, you may or may not agree.

 

Best regards,

Barry

www.soundkeeperrecordings.com

www.barrydiamentaudio.com

 

 

[Guest]

Barry,

 

The odd thing is, I haven't read any marketing hype.

 

 

 

 

 

[astron]

Here are some pictures of my custom installations,all with Weiss And Amarra:

 

http://ultraudio.de/kunde.html

 

 

 

 

[machinehead]

Hi Barry, thanks again for the info.

 

I am trying to picture the geometry of the ball bearing you describe.

 

There are so many different ones, but I can't seem to find one that makes sense in this

application. Can you send a link to a picture of a bearing that you mean.

 

Thanks.

 

 

Edit>>> I got it now, you are speaking of a purpose make isolator like the Symposium Roller Block, etc.?

 

[agentsmith]

Bedroom system, the other CAS system

 

 

And... Close up of the Naim DAC playing from a USB stick

 

 

[bdiament]

Hi machinehead,

 

Yes, Rollerblocks are one example of a commercial design.

Attached is a photo of a set of Hip Joints, my own roller bearing design, as well as a photo showing two of the three Hip Joints supporting my MIO.

 

Best regards,

Barry

www.soundkeeperrecordings.com

www.barrydiamentaudio.com

 

 

 

[ted_b]

Since I can't edit my first pic, here's another.

 

My speakers are SP Tech Revelations with external Mundorf crossovers (boxes in corner; center channel box is under the center channel speaker). The center and music surrounds are SP Tech Continuums (same as Revs without transmission line woofer enclosure). My pre shown here is a bargain: the Wyred4Sound STP SE. I also use the wonderful Modwright LS 36.5 dual mono 2 box tubed pre (depends on mood). The amps are Spectron Musician III Mark 2 monoblocks. Behind the center channel speaker are my Macbook SSD music server and my Weiss DAC2 24/192 DAC, as well as a McCormack DNA-250 which powers the center channel, and an Audience AR12 Adept Response power conditioner. The amps are plugged into smaller Audience AR1 coniditioners, then into the wall. Everything else (inc AR12) plugs into a PIAudio UberBuss, then into the wall. (The surround/video stuff is off camera on the right wall). Cabling includes ASI liveline XLR (DAC to pre), Furutech Evolution II XLR (pre to amps), custom Synergistic Research XLR y-adpters for amp monoblock setup, and prototype Elrod Remote Sense speaker cables (amp to crossovers). I use the Aether Audio (SP Tech's new name) Black boxes from crossover to speaker terminal; (they are incredible speaker level r/c network/noise reduction devices that improve any speaker/amp integration).

 

The real workhouses in this setup are the Sistrum isolation stands (the amps are temporarily on larger stands than needed cuz i'm redoing things; they will be on Sistrum SP-101's like the speakers are on, and the amps stuff will be used on the video/surround rack). Sistrum's concept is to allow equipment to naturally vibrate and then funnel/transfer that vibration out to ground as quickly and expediently as possible. It works in spades!!!

 

The room is treated with 20+ Realtrap diffusors, bass traps and RFZ panels, as well as a sprinkling of GIK Art panels on the rear wall. My mug can be seen in Stereophile's Realtrap testimonial ad (Nov 2009 and every 5 months).

 

BTW, the rear Continuum surrounds are used for hirez multichannel music (SACD, DVD-A, BluRay) only. When watching movies those behemoths are not in the signal path; instead side (90 degree) and rear (130 degree) Alon Centris's are involved for a dedicated 7.1 setup. Each setup (2 channel, 5.1 and 7.1) have dedicated signal paths. 2 channel is used every night.

 

 

 

 

[machinehead]

I think this is one of the most innovative DAC's on the market given its function set like the use of a USB stick and it's super high res capability rates, can you even get music files that high? A bit ironic that it comes from perhaps one of the

most conservative companies on the audiophile world. They have certainly set the bar for functionality the Swiss Army DAC from the UK!

 

[machinehead]

Very nice machining work are they 316 stainless?

 

[machinehead]

Dan, I think this is the fun-est thread I have participated in; no arguing, just getting to see everyone's systems, and everyone sharing about their kit, great idea!

 

[Cemil]

Here is mine

 

[Guest]

The King has arrived!

 

Cemil you have the best gear I have seen outside of a very High End show room.

 

Absolutely orgasmic!

 

 

 

 

[timztunz]

That is a VERY, very sweet set up. It looks SO inviting!

 

[Cemil]

Thank you

 

It took a long time to get there, and chosen carefully. This is my 3rd pair of speakers (and system) since 1981. I don't change often but I know what I like and take time finding it. It is nice that both my disposable income and the quality of hifi is improving as I am getting older.

 

And yes, it sounds very very musical.