Beyond stereo?

[AJ Soundfield]

17 minutes ago, STC said:

 

Kal, I thought you should know the difference between the 3D and stereo. The 3D can only happen when you are in the median line. It is exactly the same as stereo where you have to be in the sweet spot. 

 

Going out of the line - it sounds like any other standard stereo setup when you are off the centre of a stereo setup. 

Wrong, the illustration is explaining the difference between a conventional "stereo" speaker vs a CD

Once again, you either aren't reading...or more likely, can't comprehend:

http://www.linkwitzlab.com/Links/Optimized-listening-area-Davies.pdf 

 

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Compared with conventional and many unconventional loudspeakers the top octaves are clearly better dispersed. Imaging is indeed maintained over a very wide range of positions . An A/B comparison against conventional loudspeaker with the listener well off centerline is almost tantamount to a comparison of stereo with mono.

 

[AJ Soundfield]

18 hours ago, AJ Soundfield said:

How many wide stereo + diffuse decorrelated independent driven indirect radiation fronts + 2 Logic7 rears have you heard?

Still no

[AJ Soundfield]

 

LOL

[AJ Soundfield]

1 minute ago, STC said:

My speakers dispersion is  45 degree full spectrum.

Right, the exact opposite required for wide area stereo imaging. So all this is projection by you.

You're in way over your head, move along...

[AJ Soundfield]

1 minute ago, STC said:

Finally you got it. The magic can only happen in the center.

Right, for you fringe Ambi types.

 

While most prefer something a bit less confining.

 

[AJ Soundfield]

3 minutes ago, STC said:

Not according to the review of your speakers. 

http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue62/capital_audiofest.htm

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These combined to make for a system that has very even and flat dispersion, that is the frequency response remains very much the same as you get off the main axis of the speakers. But, they have added a small full-range radiator to the rear of the top box, which adds some energy into the diffuse field much the way planar dipole speakers do. The effect was a soundfield very reminiscent of a planar speaker, but with a much, much wider sweet spot. 

Ouch 

[AJ Soundfield]

7 minutes ago, STC said:

 

Nothing new. The concept would sound better if you move the front  speakers closer and do the XTC. You are still listening to stereo. 

Ok, so still no, never heard anything like this.

Thanks.

 

Now maybe you could start a separate thread about your cult of Ambi and proselytize there?

I'm sure a single line would form quickly

[AJ Soundfield]

6 minutes ago, STC said:

Seriously, do you only put the links to the favorable reviews and omit this

That isn't a wide area stereo design duh!

The other, clearly is to all listeners.

[AJ Soundfield]

1 minute ago, STC said:

 

Make me. 

Is was just a suggestion to help with the Ambi fringe obsession condition

[AJ Soundfield]

20 minutes ago, STC said:

AJ, Perhaps, you should change the topic from Beyond Stereo to Nothing beyond Stereo

No, better yet, you could take you megaphone to the street corner and start preaching at folks how Ambiophonics is their salvation also and will save them all from stereo hell.

Seriously, if it's as great as your ilk claims, start a thread about it a see what others think

[AJ Soundfield]

12 minutes ago, STC said:

 

Master of distortion. Who is talking about Ambisonics. 

Who sonics, phonics, dextrous, cares? Start your cult of http://www.ambiophonics.org/ thread as see how many consider this a sane persons living room stereo look:

 

Besides you...

[AJ Soundfield]

2 hours ago, STC said:

You can't even get a single sweet spot correct but aiming for larger ones. 

 

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http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue62/capital_audiofest.htm

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These combined to make for a system that has very even and flat dispersion, that is the frequency response remains very much the same as you get off the main axis of the speakers. But, they have added a small full-range radiator to the rear of the top box, which adds some energy into the diffuse field much the way planar dipole speakers do. The effect was a soundfield very reminiscent of a planar speaker, but with a much, much wider sweet spot. 

 

 

Ouch 

 

 

Only one chair in the iso-ward 

[AJ Soundfield]

I'm seeing a trend here

 

[AJ Soundfield]

18 minutes ago, STC said:

How many chair/people you see in your pictures? 

At least 6 for the wide sweet spot

 

Now compare to this

 

Obviously a system for a loner. But that's ok, we're all different.

[AJ Soundfield]

Have you noticed anything in common here?

 

 

Seriously now, it's not like stereo at all

 

[AJ Soundfield]

4 minutes ago, STC said:

It is not If you sit outside the median line the ground would open up and swallow you. You just miss the 3D effect. 

 

 

 

Aha!! That explains the bizarre inline seating.

Btw, where does your living room video screen go here?

 

[AJ Soundfield]

49 minutes ago, semente said:

How many audiophiles do you get in a family/household?

I'm sure a single sweet spot is enough for most homes...

Well, there is a poll in the BACCH/Ambiophonics thread asking just that, perhaps we can get a snippet of data.

Clearly not everyone is a loner who sits in one single spot. There are obviously folks who want either more freedom of movement/sitting positions for themselves, or possibly listen with significant others, friends, etc.

This thread isn't about that, so I started the other so that my stalker STC can proselytize about locked in center binaural there.

This thread is for the various >2ch methods, such as discrete surround, upmixing, etc.

Binaural is simply one other option of getting a more 3d effect, so I'm sure the other thread will be filled with great responses about that.

[AJ Soundfield]

16 hours ago, gmgraves said:

 

I don't think I said that two-channel stereo soundfield reconstruction rivals MCH. I said that two microphones, properly chosen and used can capture both the ensemble on stage and the hall ambience.

Correct, they can, but if you read the link in my very first post, it explains why the direct from ensemble and the diffuse (ambiance) cannot be reproduced by the same loudspeaker drivers if one wants something more like the original (aka, a reconstruction). The direct and diffuse have very different properties and is perceived by the ears differently. That ideally, they would be encoded separately (IOW, not with just 2 mics) and also played back by separate driver compliments. That's what I meant by "beyond" stereo, both in encoding and decoding.

Of course, I also point out the vast majority of music is stereo, so that should not be ignored either. Which is precisely what things like the "surround" stereo setup in the Linkwitz diagram show. Yes, there are options like Ambio as well.

 

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But I will say that use of a simple "Hafler"-style surround hookup can, often, break that ambience information "out" from the 2-channel recording and give a more fulsome presentation because most often that venue information hits the microphones out-of-phase. I used to do that all the time when I had a Dolby logic decoder, or a logic-steered surround decoder during the "quadrophonic" era. But again, it's not real surround and it's effectiveness is purely random. 

Right, which is exactly why the setup I show and use, has the "surround" as a separate entity. The front 2 channels are pure stereo, like you and everyone else here uses. That same signal is fed to a MCH processor, used only for the surround channels. It does not process the fronts (its amazing how dense some folks are on other online forums, that they could not comprehend this significant fact). So simply turning off the MCH processor (via remote of course), reverts back to pure old stereo, if the recording does not warrant any added effects. I'm with you that it is very recording dependent. That is precisely why the Ambio, Polk SDA, Carver Holography etc isn't for me, unless bypassable and total compatible with "normal" stereo.

 

 

[AJ Soundfield]

7 hours ago, STC said:

Some like to dance and unfortunately Ambiophonics or BACCH is not suitable for such application. 

Well you like to dance in tight sweet spot as well it seems, from your site 

 

[AJ Soundfield]

11 hours ago, gmgraves said:

 

I sure do like those Soundlab speakers! Better than which I have not heard.

They are nice, but you really need to get out more if that's the best you've heard 

Odd that they would use them for rears too, since one wants only ambiance around you, as provided by good discrete MCH and upmixing. Those old fist gen MCH SACDs with the sax player behind you were IMO largely why such gimmickry failed.

If you attend live classical, you know violinists don't walk off stage and start playing behind you.

Luckily, I started a separate Ambiosonics thread, where I'm sure the fervent fanboys will be all over it posting, instead of stalking this one about all forms of MCH, i.e more than just 2 speakers.

[AJ Soundfield]

21 minutes ago, Ralph Glasgal said:

Binaural is just the term used to describe two eared listening, nothing to do with earphones or speakers. 

In the context you quoted me it means exactly what I was referring to, which is a recording and playback method for both headphones and for some, loudspeakers.

 

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If you deliver, in a recording and reproducing system, all the two eared localization cues that one normally experiences in everyday hearing, then it does not matter, what mics, what speakers, what media, or what earphones one uses.  This is now actually becoming possible and cost effective. 

For one person in a tight area, yes.

 

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The nice thing about paying attention to the binaural psychoacoustic rules is that non binaural localization cue items like extreme frequency response, and extreme flat frequency response become minor factors. 

"Extreme" measured or perceived? Please provide some data where timbre distortion produced by stereo is extreme.

I think you exaggerating this issue, especially in the context of things like orchestral works, which has large amounts of source(s) combing in the far field.

 

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Also it is now possible to make earphones sound like binaural speakers but it is not easy.

Yes, Smyth et al. But headphones still lack any visceral impact like loudspeakers (and reality)..and we again have the issue of that lonesome solo listener...

[AJ Soundfield]

14 minutes ago, mav52 said:

AJ you sure are hung up on people that like to listen alone.

Nope, it's the opposite. Folks who like to listen all alone are hung up in this "Beyond Stereo" MCH thread, about those who don't.

I actually created a dedicated thread for those solo listener folks...yet here they are.

It's like that with the gospel I suppose.

[AJ Soundfield]

6 minutes ago, Ralph Glasgal said:

With a variety of speaker types, The stereo listening area is relatively small.  If you move forward you get a hole in the middle, if you move back, you get a narrow stage or mono.  If you move to the side you normally localize to one speaker more or less.

This is correct Ralph. However, there is a certain way to design speakers that have a much wider sweet spot as I've linked several times now:

http://www.linkwitzlab.com/Links/Optimized-listening-area-Davies.pdf

This is also my preferred method, since while I do use a center channel for video, I find them visually distracting for music. This is purely a subjective choice. I do not claim it is better than 3 discrete front channels, but the frontal soundstage/phantom central images are rendered to my satisfaction based on my experiences with live classical, jazz etc.

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 Now for the commercial.  In an Ambiophonic system, if you move forward you get normal stereo, if you move back not much happens, the stage stays nice and wide.  If you move too far sideways, you hear both channels equally as in old fashioned mono. You can nod, rotate your head, stand up, lie down, lean. etc. In general with almost any speaker type and ordinary recordings, I can demo to five or six people at a time.  Also a center speaker in 5.1 is never necessary even for offside viewers.  No head tracking required although you can always add this if you tend to wander a lot.  If you wear a necklacespeaker like the Soundmatters  DASH you can carry a great stage around with you and have multiple listeners. 

I've answered this here: https://www.computeraudiophile.com/forums/topic/32987-bacch-ambiophonics-etc/

[AJ Soundfield]

15 hours ago, Ralph Glasgal said:

The secret is in keeping the speakers at less than one third the stereo spacing, not trying to have surround sound with just two speakers and not having to rely on binaural head recordings. 

Ralph, please respond in this thread I created specifically for Ambio, thanks

https://www.computeraudiophile.com/forums/topic/32987-bacch-ambiophonics-etc/

 

[AJ Soundfield]

14 hours ago, Kal Rubinson said:

They are inseparable so any change would only be a relative matter.  Spatial is, imho, where the new action will be going forward (and this is without reference to any particular technology).

100% agree