Why do apple lossless file sizes vary ??

[rando]

12 hours ago, Ralf11 said:

Could the Lossless compression algorithm work differently on Windows than on a Mac?  IIRC, some files were transferred over from a Windoz machine when I switched to a mac.

 

Alternatively, different versions of iTunes have been used to rip CDs, so maybe the 2012 iTunes algorithm differs from the 2016,..17 one.

iTunes/QT on Windows machine are the epitome of purposely flawed software.  From personal experience I can tell you importing, and sometimes even ripping directly, produced multiples of any given file.  Of three seemingly identical files one would be half the bit rate, one corrupted, and the last a good copy.  Sometimes you got two perfectly fine and identical files.  It was as infuriating as it was easy to eliminate the lesser copies.  For one file, when it reached into the thousands hair came out in large tufts.  

 

Checksum are very definitive but not revealing of where the flaws lie.  

 

  

[wgscott]

15 hours ago, wgscott said:

 

Use the afhash command to see if the checksum is identical in the case where a supposedly identical file differs dramatically in size.

 

eg:

% afhash 01\ Dire\ Wolf.m4a

01 Dire Wolf.m4a :
No hash in file.
SHA1 Hash of audio data : 2da2d240245b71592b47734d735e585251c38a42

If they differ, then there is a problem.  If they are the same, then presumably the metadata (probably the album art image(s)) account for the difference.

 

[tmtomh]

11 hours ago, Ralf11 said:

OK, on the laptop I found 2 versions/files with different sizes (not 3x, just a few percent).  They both have the same Date modified and Date added...

The times are the same (to the nearest minute).

 

 

 

Thanks for providing this. I agree that both of these must be lossless files - unless the track is 8 or more minutes in length (which I assume it is not) then there's absolutely no way a lossy file is going to be 16MB in size, let alone 20MB.

 

But what accounts for that 4MB in file size difference? The only way to tell is to view both files/tracks in iTunes and use the Get Info function in iTunes (NOT the Finder) on each one. In the "file" tab of the iTunes Get Info window, it will list the bit rate. If the bit rates of both files are identical, then the file-size difference is because of album art or other metadata. If the bit rates are not identical, and you are 100% sure that the music is identical (from the same CD, same track length, same mastering), then the difference in that case would be a different encoding process.

[Jud]

Do both of these files play?

[Ralf11]

9 hours ago, Jud said:

 

Does this mean there were no files that varied in size by 3x, or that these are different files than you originally described?

 

in the OP I mentioned a range of size variances; later I noted the files on the mini (main computer) had been ash canned - the above files were on the laptop (Macbook Pro)

 

I think they both play, but will make sure tonite; I'll also use the iTunes Get Info facility on them & report back.

[Ralf11]

I think % afhash may be a bit too advanced for me.  I fit the UNIX igno-runt comment @wgscott made a couple of days ago...

 

I did look up the command meaning tho...

[wgscott]

2 hours ago, Ralf11 said:

I think % afhash may be a bit too advanced for me.  I fit the UNIX igno-runt comment @wgscott made a couple of days ago...

 

I did look up the command meaning tho...

 

1.  Open Terminal.app

 

2. Type in the word "afhash" followed by a space.  

 

3. Open a finder window that shows the file in question.

 

4.  Drag and drop the file onto the Terminal.app window

 

5.  Hit the return key.

 

 

[wgscott]

BTW, the % sign is just a generic unix prompt.  It isn't part of what you type.  Bash defaults to using a $.  zsh uses a % by default.  I can't remember what tcsh uses.

[Jud]

42 minutes ago, wgscott said:

I can't remember what tcsh uses.

 

If I'm thinking correctly that tcsh is the FreeBSD default, it's $.

[Ralf11]

ok, afhash results...

 

Badge.m4a:

No hash in file.

SHA1 Hash of audio data : 9df09852009e5ccecec6c07e1fdd9c50d54c2b29

 

Badge 1.m4a:

No hash in file.

Format of /Users/randywebb/x/2-04 Badge 1.m4a is not integer LPCM or lossless. No hash will be computed.

 

So, does that mean the file Badge 1.m4a  is AAC?  Yet it is the larger file

[Speed Racer]

1 minute ago, Ralf11 said:

ok, afhash results...

 

Badge.m4a:

No hash in file.

SHA1 Hash of audio data : 9df09852009e5ccecec6c07e1fdd9c50d54c2b29

 

Badge 1.m4a:

No hash in file.

Format of /Users/randywebb/x/2-04 Badge 1.m4a is not integer LPCM or lossless. No hash will be computed.

 

So, does that mean the file Badge 1.m4a  is AAC?  Yet it is the larger file

 

What does a music player app say the files are?

[Ralf11]

I think I will re-run the search for AAC file types in iTunes (playlist or smart playlist).  I have been subjecting AAC files to extreme vetting recently and it's possible some escaped over the wall during the replacement process.  Together with album art files being updated to higher res. (or maybe other meta-data) I suspect I could get a whole range of file sizes.

[mjb]

On 6/1/2017 at 2:57 AM, kumakuma said:

The MediaInfo app ($0.99) from the App Store might be a useful tool for solving this mystery.

 

I second this suggestion, its a very useful little app.

 

One of the reasons I went with FLAC is because Apple use the same file extension (.aac) for both lossy and lossless, so there's not quick way to spot the difference - other than perhaps by file size. It's a pity because Apple isn't natively FLAC friendly.

[wgscott]

3 hours ago, Ralf11 said:

ok, afhash results...

 

Badge.m4a:

No hash in file.

SHA1 Hash of audio data : 9df09852009e5ccecec6c07e1fdd9c50d54c2b29

 

Badge 1.m4a:

No hash in file.

Format of /Users/randywebb/x/2-04 Badge 1.m4a is not integer LPCM or lossless. No hash will be computed.

 

So, does that mean the file Badge 1.m4a  is AAC?  Yet it is the larger file

 

Possibly.  It seems to suggest it isn't ALAC or AIFF.

[Ralf11]

I may have discovered how this originally happened.  When you tell iTune to "Replace Existing" when it imports a CD, it does not actually replace the file, and merely renames instead.

 

I have been replacing AAC and some AIFF with Apple Lossless for several months now, as well as putting higher res album covers on, and these operations may have caused this problem, coupled with iTunes odd behavior.

[wgscott]

iTunes has really become a nasty piece of bloatware.  I used to think people who trashed it were full of it, but it has gone downhill so much, that I think it is a borderline hazard to use it with your music library.  I used to let it "automatically organize" my library.  Now I do everything manually.  The only thing I really use iTunes for now is as a server to serve music and movies and stuff to various Apple TVs, and to load stuff up onto my iOS devices.  I just recently discovered how many background system calls it makes even when idle, so I wrote a script to automatically quit iTunes whenever I turn my DAC on, just in case I forget.  I've had it do some very weird stuff with my files, and I trust it less and less as the years go by.  It has gotten more pushy, invasive and buggy.

[kumakuma]

34 minutes ago, wgscott said:

iTunes has really become a nasty piece of bloatware.  I used to think people who trashed it were full of it, but it has gone downhill so much, that I think it is a borderline hazard to use it with your music library.  I used to let it "automatically organize" my library.  Now I do everything manually.  The only thing I really use iTunes for now is as a server to serve music and movies and stuff to various Apple TVs, and to load stuff up onto my iOS devices.  I just recently discovered how many background system calls it makes even when idle, so I wrote a script to automatically quit iTunes whenever I turn my DAC on, just in case I forget.  I've had it do some very weird stuff with my files, and I trust it less and less as the years go by.  It has gotten more pushy, invasive and buggy.

 

Couldn't agree more. The only thing I use iTunes for these days is getting content onto my Apple devices.

 

JRiver is a much better application for managing my library and playing music and XLD does a better job of ripping CDs and converting between formats.

[jhwalker]

1 hour ago, wgscott said:

iTunes has really become a nasty piece of bloatware.  I used to think people who trashed it were full of it, but it has gone downhill so much, that I think it is a borderline hazard to use it with your music library.  I used to let it "automatically organize" my library.  Now I do everything manually.  The only thing I really use iTunes for now is as a server to serve music and movies and stuff to various Apple TVs, and to load stuff up onto my iOS devices.  I just recently discovered how many background system calls it makes even when idle, so I wrote a script to automatically quit iTunes whenever I turn my DAC on, just in case I forget.  I've had it do some very weird stuff with my files, and I trust it less and less as the years go by.  It has gotten more pushy, invasive and buggy.

 

I use it to confirm / polish tagging of files I rip via XLD or dBpoweramp, transfer files from my laptop(s) to my server, and load my iDevices.

 

Though my server is now Roon (inside the house) or Brio (outside the house), I still find iTunes has the "cleanest" presentation (I use the Songs view with Column Browser turned on) - if you get the tagging right for iTunes, it will be perfect for every other software.

[wgscott]

13 minutes ago, jhwalker said:

 

I use it to confirm / polish tagging of files I rip via XLD or dBpoweramp, transfer files from my laptop(s) to my server, and load my iDevices.

 

Though my server is now Roon (inside the house) or Brio (outside the house), I still find iTunes has the "cleanest" presentation (I use the Songs view with Column Browser turned on) - if you get the tagging right for iTunes, it will be perfect for every other software.

 

I actually use it (on a different computer) for tagging, embedding higher-res album art, etc (and often even ripping CDs), but I still don't fully trust it until I verify everything with other software.

[Ralf11]

I agree on all counts.  I might term it adware tho as it is designed to get you to buy more things from or thru Apple.

 

I've found several other odd behaviors in iTunes, tho the only one that comes to mind right now is that you can only use a right click menu to examine files/meta data in some of the things arrayed along the LH strip: smart vs. regualr playlists, songs vs. album lists etc.  I don't recall which are crippled.  Too confusing.  head hurts. ...