Which DACs bypass digital filtering?

[semente]

8 hours ago, Butterfly said:

Out of interest (as a newbie) Semente, are there any Audio-zines (let’s face it how most of us find out things) that you ascribe to ? All reviews are opinions – nothing more - even if several people involved.

 

Some magazine publish measurements. I use these to shortlist which equipment is worth listening to.

 

I don't support blind tests, not that I think bias doesn't play an important part in our perception (it does) but because I think it's only useful for determining crude FR differences.

In my opinion and experience critical listening and measurements are complementary tools.

But most reviews are mere tasting sessions instead of the objective observational analysis reports that would provide meaningful information to others.

 

8 hours ago, Butterfly said:

To quash the Audio Note as rubbish a bit harsh surely ? Unless you’ve heard one of course.

 

No, measurements tell us that their DAC is rubbish.

And if you are able to even roughly correlate measurements with listening then you will be capable of antecipating whether you are likely to enjoy the way it sounds. Having had prior listening to roughly identical topologies as well as with other equipment of the same brand helps too. Call it an educated guess.

[fas42]

16 hours ago, semente said:

 

No, measurements tell us that their DAC is rubbish.

And if you are able to even roughly correlate measurements with listening then you will be capable of antecipating whether you are likely to enjoy the way it sounds. Having had prior listening to roughly identical topologies as well as with other equipment of the same brand helps too. Call it an educated guess.

 

Talking about topologies, I immediately thought of Lampizator, which is in a similar area of design thought to Audio Note. And I have experienced what a stock Lampizator can do, courtesy of the last audio show I went to - and it was a positive experience. Playing a Yello track, there was nothing I could pick untoward in the sound - it indeed was letting me get "closer to the recording", 😁.

[the_bat]

Having actually heard this, measurements tell us that we're not measuring the right things.

 

Oh, and I agree the price is a joke - it's meant to be.  That's why 9,600 and 192,000.

[Butterfly]

On 2/23/2020 at 8:59 PM, semente said:

 

Some magazine publish measurements. I use these to shortlist which equipment is worth listening to.

 

 Call it an educated guess.

Thanks – follow your train of thought even if a little unorthodox. If still using a Teac mentioned (and happy with performance), you are in agreement with Reviewer opinions - which were very favourable.

 

Mentioned in previous comments above increased res should not increase distortion unless device implemented poorly, or something amiss in the rest of the chain - if you hear this of course. It’s also across the board in terms of usual Audio ingredients - to my ears at least. What it can do at the lower end say, is to reveal an amorphous bass sound to be a bass pluck and drum beat occurring at the same time. 

[LesterNZ]

As a newbie here, and a happy home listener thru a Metrum Amethyst R2R DAC, I may be slightly off-topic: But mentioning double bass, kick-drum and other LF instruments to determine any DAC's musical resolving power comes with all the complications of room acoustics and likely speaker box colourations. Headphones, planar and open baffle design speakers may possibly by-pass these resolution  "obstacles". Though we know few recordings are actually made for playing over these transducer types,  

 

So this single individual with Spatial M3-T open baffle, controlled directivity drivers urges fellow music loving audiophiles to not get too crazy over miniscule numbers, but to SERIOUSLY get your listening room properly working with all this DAC perfection.      

 

 

[asdf1000]

@Miska we'll need to wait for the manual but apparently this upcoming AKM chip based Topping DAC will allow DSD Direct mode...

 

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/topping-e30-dac-review.12119/post-353611

 

It measures well and will be USD130...

[barrows]

Topping D-90 offers NOS for DSD only in "DAC" mode.  This has been confirmed directly by Topping.

[asdf1000]

8 hours ago, barrows said:

Topping D-90 offers NOS for DSD only in "DAC" mode.  This has been confirmed directly by Topping.

DAC mode does not mean by-pass DSP.

 

DAC mode means fixed volume level (non-variable volume).

 

What Topping needs to confirm is “DSD Direct” mode, as per AKM DAC chip datasheet..

[barrows]

1 hour ago, asdf1000 said:

What Topping needs to confirm is “DSD Direct” mode, as per AKM DAC chip datasheet..

 

Yes it does, I confirmed directly with Topping.

1 hour ago, asdf1000 said:

DAC mode does not mean by-pass DSP.

 

Yes it does with DSD input, this has been confirmed directly by Topping.

[asdf1000]

1 hour ago, barrows said:

 

Yes it does, I confirmed directly with Topping.

 

Yes it does with DSD input, this has been confirmed directly by Topping.

 

Can you copy and paste exactly what you asked them?

 

And copy and paste exactly their reply?

 

[barrows]

21 minutes ago, asdf1000 said:

 

Can you copy and paste exactly what you asked them?

 

And copy and paste exactly their reply?

 

I have long since trashed the e-mail thread, and do not have the patience to go searching through my trash bin to suit your needs.  As you seem to doubt my verity, i suggest that you contact them yourself for verification.  Topping was very responsive to my inquiry and answered my questions in less than 24 hours.

[semente]

- Aqua DACs

- Armature Asterion (same as Holo Spring)

- Audio-GD (some models)

- Audiobyte Vox
- Border Patrol

- Denafrips

- Esoteric (some models?)

- Holo Audio (some models)

- iFi micro (some models)

- Lampizator

- Metrum Acoustics

- MHDT (some models)

- Phasure NOS1 DAC

- Singxer SDA-2 DAC

- RME ADI-2 DAC, ADI-2 Pro ADC/DAC

- Rockna DACs

- T+A DAC 8 DSD, SD 3100 HV, SDV 3100 HV

- Teac UD-50x family

- Topping (some AKM models)

- TotalDAC (some models?)

[Butterfly]

Mentioned previously but not included Sonnet Digital Morpheous NOS Dac. Question mark on this one but follows similar design techniques as Morpheous - Wagner/Etalon DreamDac.

 

Seems to fit the bill : Mojo Audio Mystique V3 NOS R2R DAC

[semente]

On 2/23/2020 at 12:05 AM, Butterfly said:

Err lively discussion … Out of interest (as a newbie) Semente, are there any Audio-zines (let’s face it how most of us find out things) that you ascribe to ?

 

No, not for reading subjective reviews.

 

But I do consult the measurements produced by a few magazines.

[semente]

11 hours ago, Butterfly said:

Mentioned previously but not included Sonnet Digital Morpheous NOS Dac. Question mark on this one but follows similar design techniques as Morpheous - Wagner/Etalon DreamDac.

 

Seems to fit the bill : Mojo Audio Mystique V3 NOS R2R DAC

 

The Mojo doesn't meet the requiremed criteria because it uses the AD1862 which is a 20-bit D/A chip:

 

https://www.analog.com/media/en/technical-documentation/data-sheets/AD1862.pdf

[vvcv]

On 5/27/2017 at 5:09 PM, rikhav said:

Sorry for being off topic but I always assumed that if one sends a stream of max bit rate a dac supports, it automatically avoids digital filtering by a dac

 

For example I have a burson conductor which supports maximum bit rate of 192 khz, so if send a stream of 176 or 192 khz from my PC the filtering of dac is automatically bypassed

 

Someone please let me know if this right or I am completely wrong

 

Hello Rikhav,

 

After some discussion today on a thread I started, I too was under this same impression. However, I remembered a time when it was suggested I change some jumpers on my Benchmark HGC2 DAC. Before I did, and just today, i remembered reading quickly about something regarding the DACs filter and how it takes in and lets go of a signal. Anyway, after this discussion started to confuse me a bit this afternoon, I called Benchmark and spoke with the lead sales rep. A great guy who has always helped me with every tech problem I've had, and solved them. So, when I gave him a basic idea of how HQP uses filters, including the ability to upsample to DSD64. This is the highest DSD the DAC will upsample to, and Kent (the Benchmark contact) was close to 100% certainty that the Benchmark HGC2, and HGC3 for that matter, would indeed take HQPs signal and resample it yet again so the DAC would know it is releasing the parameters and sound quality it should be outputting. Now, he assured me he is not the engineer, but also assured me that no one at Benchmark, that he knows of, uses HQP, and suggested I go straight to the developer to ask this specific question -so I would know for sure. I hope this helps, though I'm sure you've figured it out.

 

I'll post the thread from today, but I'm sure you know most if not all information we discussed.

 

[semente]

The Benchmark DAC1 up- or down-samples everything to 110kHz:

https://benchmarkmedia.com/blogs/application_notes/13127453-asynchronous-upsampling-to-110-khz?

 

The Benchmark DAC2 and DAC3 up- or down-sample everything to 211kHz:

https://benchmarkmedia.com/blogs/application_notes/inside-the-dac2-part-2-digital-processing

 

Frequency Shifting the Transition Band

Benchmark has selected the ES9018 filters which provide the lowest pass-band ripple. We then frequency-shift the filter transition band upward so that it is centered at 110.5 kHz. We do this by operating the ES9018 at an input sample rate of 211 kHz. This means that the entire transition band of the ES9018 filter is always above the highest audio frequency contained in the incoming audio. At a 192 kHz incoming sample rate, the highest incoming frequency is 96 kHz. This is completely below the lower limit of the transition band that is centered at 110.5 kHz. Benchmark's system effectively eliminates the filters in the ES9018 by frequency shifting the filters out of the audio band. It also completely eliminates all traces of image fold-back. The Nyquist frequency of the D/A converter exceeds the Nyquist frequency of the incoming digital audio.

We used this same frequency-shifting technique in our DAC1 converters. When the DAC1 was designed, the available technology limited us to a D/A input sample rate of 110 kHz. In the DAC1, the D/A filters were out of band for sample rates up to 96 kHz. The DAC2 extends this unique technology to all sample rates up to 192 kHz. The goal for all Benchmark converters has always been to make the digital filters as transparent as possible. The accuracy and precision of the filters is a function of the oversampling ratio used in the filters. Benchmark moves the low-pass filter out of the D/A converter so that it can be executed at a much higher oversampling ratio.

[Miska]

Benchmark DACs certainly don't belong to category of this thread.

 

[vvcv]

10 hours ago, semente said:

The Benchmark DAC1 up- or down-samples everything to 110kHz:

https://benchmarkmedia.com/blogs/application_notes/13127453-asynchronous-upsampling-to-110-khz?

 

The Benchmark DAC2 and DAC3 up- or down-sample everything to 211kHz:

https://benchmarkmedia.com/blogs/application_notes/inside-the-dac2-part-2-digital-processing

 

Frequency Shifting the Transition Band

Benchmark has selected the ES9018 filters which provide the lowest pass-band ripple. We then frequency-shift the filter transition band upward so that it is centered at 110.5 kHz. We do this by operating the ES9018 at an input sample rate of 211 kHz. This means that the entire transition band of the ES9018 filter is always above the highest audio frequency contained in the incoming audio. At a 192 kHz incoming sample rate, the highest incoming frequency is 96 kHz. This is completely below the lower limit of the transition band that is centered at 110.5 kHz. Benchmark's system effectively eliminates the filters in the ES9018 by frequency shifting the filters out of the audio band. It also completely eliminates all traces of image fold-back. The Nyquist frequency of the D/A converter exceeds the Nyquist frequency of the incoming digital audio.

We used this same frequency-shifting technique in our DAC1 converters. When the DAC1 was designed, the available technology limited us to a D/A input sample rate of 110 kHz. In the DAC1, the D/A filters were out of band for sample rates up to 96 kHz. The DAC2 extends this unique technology to all sample rates up to 192 kHz. The goal for all Benchmark converters has always been to make the digital filters as transparent as possible. The accuracy and precision of the filters is a function of the oversampling ratio used in the filters. Benchmark moves the low-pass filter out of the D/A converter so that it can be executed at a much higher oversampling ratio.

 

 Thanks a lot for this. Great info. for a buddy that wants to buy my Benchmark -or if i sell it.  

[semente]

- Aqua DACs

- Armature (some models): Asterion (similar to Holo Spring) and Cronos (similar to Denafrips Ares)

- Audio-GD (some models)

- Audiobyte Vox
- Border Patrol

- Denafrips

- Esoteric (some models?)

- Holo Audio (some models)

- iFi micro (some models)

- Lampizator

- Metrum Acoustics

- MHDT (some models)

- Phasure NOS1 DAC

- Singxer SDA-2 DAC

- RME ADI-2 DAC, ADI-2 Pro ADC/DAC

- Rockna DACs

- T+A (some models?): DAC 8 DSD, SD 3100 HV, SDV 3100 HV

- Teac UD-50x family

- Topping (some AKM models)

- TotalDAC (some models?)

[audiofool]

FYI
After a few emails with FIIO they have confirmed that the K5 Pro DOES NOT use dsd bypass

It does uses an AKM chip that can with some dacs measure almost as well with 768k PCM as with dsd. 
ASR has measured it at 44/48khz, hopefully someone will measure it at 768.

[semente]

- Aqua DACs

- Armature (some models): Asterion (similar to Holo Spring) and Cronos (similar to Denafrips Ares)

- Audio-GD (some models)

- Audiobyte Vox
- Border Patrol

- Denafrips

- Esoteric (some models?)

- Holo Audio (some models)

- iFi micro (some models)

- Lampizator

- Metrum Acoustics

- MHDT (some models)

- Phasure NOS1 DAC

- Singxer SDA-x family

- RME ADI-2 DAC, ADI-2 Pro ADC/DAC

- Rockna DACs

- T+A (some models?): DAC 8 DSD, SD 3100 HV, SDV 3100 HV

- Teac UD-50x family

- Topping (some AKM models)

- TotalDAC (some models?)

[Miska]

3 hours ago, semente said:

- T+A (some models?): DAC 8 DSD, SD 3100 HV, SDV 3100 HV

 

To be added: T+A HA 200

 

I'm using it on my office desk for HQPlayer development. Works up DSD1024.

 

[semente]

- Aqua DACs

- Armature (some models): Asterion (similar to Holo Spring) and Cronos (similar to Denafrips Ares)

- Audio-GD (some models)

- Audiobyte Vox
- Border Patrol

- Denafrips

- Esoteric (some models?)

- Holo Audio (some models)

- iFi micro (some models)

- Lampizator

- Metrum Acoustics

- MHDT (some models)

- Phasure NOS1 DAC

- Singxer SDA-x family

- RME ADI-2 DAC, ADI-2 Pro ADC/DAC

- Rockna DACs

- T+A (some models): DAC 8 DSD, SD 3100 HV, SDV 3100 HV, HA 200

- Teac UD-50x family

- Topping (some AKM models): E30, T70, T90

- TotalDAC (some models?)

[asdf1000]

iFi's new "Neo iDSD"

 

https://ifi-audio.com/products/neo-idsd/