Jump to content
IGNORED

Article: The Music In Me: Rap of History Backwards The


Recommended Posts

Go back and find recordings of Muhammad Ali from the 60's - he was already rapping. AFAIK, the actual rapping (although not set to music) was already part of Black American culture - but White people weren't aware of it, I think because it wasn't done in front of them. Part of their culture that African Americans kept to themselves. 

 

I think in terms of music, you'd have to include Dylan as a seminal influence in the development of rap music. First, because there are rappers that acknowledge him. Second, because all you have to do is listen to many of his mid sixties songs to hear a rap done to folk/rock music. 

 

Gil Scott-Heron: I clearly remember that album being released and getting a lot of "buzz". Obviously it wasn't on AM radio, but it was extensively reviewed/covered in the music press and played on college radio and some FM radio. 

 

I don't listen to a lot of rap or hip-hop, partly because I find much of it misogynist and glorifying violence. I'm also not a proponent of  using the "N-word" - even when it is done by African Americans. 

 

Musically some of the music also doesn't appeal to me. But go onto Tidal and look for rap or hip-hop with jazz - you might be surprised by the sophistication and intelligence of some of the music you find. Music that's clearly a direct descendant of the musical tree that gave us the Blues and Jazz.

Main listening (small home office):

Main setup: Surge protector +>Isol-8 Mini sub Axis Power Strip/Isolation>QuietPC Low Noise Server>Roon (Audiolense DRC)>Stack Audio Link II>Kii Control>Kii Three (on their own electric circuit) >GIK Room Treatments.

Secondary Path: Server with Audiolense RC>RPi4 or analog>Cayin iDAC6 MKII (tube mode) (XLR)>Kii Three .

Bedroom: SBTouch to Cambridge Soundworks Desktop Setup.
Living Room/Kitchen: Ropieee (RPi3b+ with touchscreen) + Schiit Modi3E to a pair of Morel Hogtalare. 

All absolute statements about audio are false :)

Link to comment
2 hours ago, DRB100 said:

Um, most other countries do have their own institutions of training their forms of music.  Africa has a very prolific music studies program.  They original had drummers that were seen as the top musicians and they would teach other students. So, that was a informal studies.  But they do have colleges. I have met several that learned how to play musical instruments by attending these colleges and they were also taught jazz studies.  Many of them played quite a lot better than a lot of American musicians that studied jazz.  Yes, taking private lessons is a form of music studies and you can learn the same thing through private studies.   Japan not have music institutions that that teach the indigenous music of Japan?  Yeah, right. That's how they teach the music of Japan and they also have an education system that also teaches Classical, Jazz, etc.  India? Absolutely they have educational institutions that teach Classical Indian music.  These other countries have very rigid methods.

 

There is a top jazz musicians that said in an interview that if he wants to play with Indian musicians, he has to study the rules associated with that music so he can play with them, even though he wasn't playing traditional Classical Indian music.  He studied from several of the top Classical musicians which taught him the instruments, but the music theory behind the rhythms and melodies and structure.  But since Classical Indian music has a lot of improvisation, it can easily translate with jazz.  look at the Beatles. George Harrison studied from Ravi Shankar, they had some classical Indian musicians performing a song that was heavily influenced by Indian.  Great song too.  

 

Miles Davis had Classical Indian musicians playing with his band. So did Don Cherry, Oregon.  But Classical Indian follows the structure.


One thing that a lot of jazz artists tell people is that you learn the rules of the music system first and then you learn how to break the rules. What the Hip Hop Rap guys are doing is breaking the rules without knowing the rules, so it's out of their own ignorance, which is why they aren't really writing songs, per se, they are just doing whatever they can to create a loop and put stupid lyrics on top of it because they lack the education and ability to write songs and play an actual musical instrument.  That's why they essentially steal samples of other songs, create a loop and call it a song.  Yeah, right. That's a ignorant way to create music. Same thing with drum machines. Most of them are not trained drummers creating drum parts, and most of them sound kind of stupid. If a drummer uses a drum machine, then they are applying their expertise and can come up with something that's able to intertwine with their playing. Hence, Phil Collins as an example. 

 

But street vernacular isn't a dialect, it's just a bunch of illiterate people that never studied or weren't very good at learning the English language. Remember, most of the American Rappers are supposed to learn English while attending K-12, so it's not like they weren't given the chance. They are just illiterate.   Come on.   I just looked up Ebonics, they don't consider it a dialect.  They consider it American Black English.  But I don't know of any school that will hand out a degree in Ebonics.  It's a combination of the word Ebony and Phonics.  I just think it's a stupid because it's just glamorizing illiteracy. And no, a lot of educated blacks do NOT speak Ebonics or want to promote it. Call it what it is. A lot of it comes from gangs as they try to come up with a language so they can throw off the police that are trying to plan their drug deals and other crimes. That's how gangsta rap came out, but now I see a lot of kids that aren't black trying to ACT black by speaking the same language and copying their mannerisms, and getting involved with drugs, and committing crimes, etc. You know, monkey see, monkey do.  And it's just dumb and a lot of these don't come from ghettos, but they try to act like they did and many of them end up not doing well in school, going to college and getting a job, as they end up going to jail, getting involved with growing pot or selling it, or sponging off their parents. I've seen MANY kids do this and it's disgusting.  Some of the parents don't know what to do about it as they haven't reached a point of kicking them out of the house, which is what they SHOULD do.

 

I see nothing positive about Hip Hop/Rap and I don't hear anything that I feel is going to be a great song to listen to 40 years from now.  Great music lasts the test of time, and most of these Rap songs don't last long.

 

Heck, for grins, I watched a video of a Rap concert and I couldn't tell what they were saying, except when they yelled out something like "Hey all you mutherfuckers or bitches or Niggas!!" and then the audience goes nuts and screams along with them.  That's the only part that I could actually tell what they were saying.  The rest just sounded like a complete distorted mess. It was not enjoyable at all.  But I was just laughing at the audience, which was predominately white, getting excited when the rapper called the audience a bunch of X Y or Z.    It was a joke. 

 

Heck JZ refers to his fan base on Twitter as Bitches.  You think that's positive?  Really?  You think that's appropriate way for kids and young adults how to address one another?  Really?  You think that an educated person, regardless of skin color is going to do that? You think that's appropriate way to communicate in the work place?  Really?  Do you call your mother or wife or girlfriend a bitch to her face?  How does she react?  

Glad you wrote this.

First about 99% of it is a non-sequitur - has nothing to do with what I wrote about  and doesn't rebut anything I wrote. Buy hey, I'm glad you used what I wrote as a vehicle to write about what you thought, regardless of any points made by me or anyone else here.

Second, you really are metaphorically speaking, deaf. So much of what you write is full of intolerance, prejudice, and stereotypes. It must be fun to self confirm your correctness constantly.

Main listening (small home office):

Main setup: Surge protector +>Isol-8 Mini sub Axis Power Strip/Isolation>QuietPC Low Noise Server>Roon (Audiolense DRC)>Stack Audio Link II>Kii Control>Kii Three (on their own electric circuit) >GIK Room Treatments.

Secondary Path: Server with Audiolense RC>RPi4 or analog>Cayin iDAC6 MKII (tube mode) (XLR)>Kii Three .

Bedroom: SBTouch to Cambridge Soundworks Desktop Setup.
Living Room/Kitchen: Ropieee (RPi3b+ with touchscreen) + Schiit Modi3E to a pair of Morel Hogtalare. 

All absolute statements about audio are false :)

Link to comment
1 hour ago, DRB100 said:

 

I pose this argument.  If you want to listen to music, the conventional way of thinking is that music is performed by musicians playing a musical instrument (singing is also included).  Now, in order to become a musician, one must learn how to play a musical instrument and be able to play various forms of music

 

Nope. Sounds like a 100 year old Western culture only definition. 

In spite of what you think, rap/hip hop is a type of singing. 

 

Define: musical instrument.

A computer or synthesizer can be a musical instrument.  I only need to understand how they work, have ideas, and be able to press buttons to play music.

Is it music.?:

1. I can play a simple tune with a computer keyboard and then software  scores it for symphony orchestra and creates the appropriate digital file. Is it music? 

 

2. In fact, the machine can also play back the music it is creating ibased on a large number of samples of every instrument in the symphony playing it's actual range of sounds. The resulting file sounds like a perfectly played real orchestral performance of the score.  

Is it music?

 

3. A "DJ" uses 8 computers and 8 turntables to improvise a performance. He has all 16 devices playing back at once and is constantly changing what he is "playing".  The different devices play off one another, create rhythms, polyrhythms, harmonies, and other complex musical relationships. All of it unique, improvised, and unrepeatable. 

But all of it based on sampling of songs, synthesized percussion, sampling of instruments, samples of various singing and lyrics. 

Is it music? 

 

Guess what the correct answer to all three is? ...Yes.

 

Main listening (small home office):

Main setup: Surge protector +>Isol-8 Mini sub Axis Power Strip/Isolation>QuietPC Low Noise Server>Roon (Audiolense DRC)>Stack Audio Link II>Kii Control>Kii Three (on their own electric circuit) >GIK Room Treatments.

Secondary Path: Server with Audiolense RC>RPi4 or analog>Cayin iDAC6 MKII (tube mode) (XLR)>Kii Three .

Bedroom: SBTouch to Cambridge Soundworks Desktop Setup.
Living Room/Kitchen: Ropieee (RPi3b+ with touchscreen) + Schiit Modi3E to a pair of Morel Hogtalare. 

All absolute statements about audio are false :)

Link to comment
1 hour ago, Jud said:

 

 

 

1 hour ago, Jud said:

 

No, but my parents would speak Yiddish on a regular basis, an expressive patois spoken by a ghettoized minority.  A century after it was widely spoken, some of its words have been adopted into English.  Oddly, no one thinks this is the downfall of the language or the civilization.

Ironic you bring that up. Because as a Germanic language heavily influenced by Hebrew, it was considered exactly that way by many Germans before WWII. Just hearing it spoken was often enough to result in an anti-Semitic reaction to the speaker, including violence. Besides being racists, the Germans who reacted this way were also ignorant of the fact that part of the reason Yiddish sounded "incorrect" to them was that both the grammar and pronunciation were derivative of German from the Middle Ages, with aspects that had been preserved in Yiddish but not in "standard" German. 

 

Sounds sort of like some of the criticism we hear of American Black English and other variations on standard English, doesn't it?

 

And don't get me wrong - I'm all in favor of people knowing standard English. But it has it's place, and just because someone speaks or uses non-standard English in a non-formal setting, it doesn't prove they are ignorant or in any way intellectually inferior. 

Main listening (small home office):

Main setup: Surge protector +>Isol-8 Mini sub Axis Power Strip/Isolation>QuietPC Low Noise Server>Roon (Audiolense DRC)>Stack Audio Link II>Kii Control>Kii Three (on their own electric circuit) >GIK Room Treatments.

Secondary Path: Server with Audiolense RC>RPi4 or analog>Cayin iDAC6 MKII (tube mode) (XLR)>Kii Three .

Bedroom: SBTouch to Cambridge Soundworks Desktop Setup.
Living Room/Kitchen: Ropieee (RPi3b+ with touchscreen) + Schiit Modi3E to a pair of Morel Hogtalare. 

All absolute statements about audio are false :)

Link to comment
3 hours ago, DRB100 said:

But was there any "rock" influence? I think it could be an early example of Indian jazz.  That might be true. but I never thought of John Handy as rock in any way shape or form.  


I'll check out some of the his earlier work when I have some free time. I went to jr. high and high school with John Handy Jr his son.  He was a crack up.  I haven't seen him since he graduated High School.

 

 

Edited the post to take that out, as I realized my recollection was confused.

Main listening (small home office):

Main setup: Surge protector +>Isol-8 Mini sub Axis Power Strip/Isolation>QuietPC Low Noise Server>Roon (Audiolense DRC)>Stack Audio Link II>Kii Control>Kii Three (on their own electric circuit) >GIK Room Treatments.

Secondary Path: Server with Audiolense RC>RPi4 or analog>Cayin iDAC6 MKII (tube mode) (XLR)>Kii Three .

Bedroom: SBTouch to Cambridge Soundworks Desktop Setup.
Living Room/Kitchen: Ropieee (RPi3b+ with touchscreen) + Schiit Modi3E to a pair of Morel Hogtalare. 

All absolute statements about audio are false :)

Link to comment
54 minutes ago, wwaldmanfan said:

 

Well, it sure isn't helping. These rich, successful rap stars are looked up to by kids who want to emulate them, including their speech patterns. While 'Lil Wayne may be able to read Shakespeare aloud with perfect elocution, I've never heard him do it, and neither have the impressionable kids who idolize him.

 

I'm not advocating censorship, but I am not sure that some young minds have the intellectual capacity to embrace the hip-hip culture for entertainment, then dismiss any influence on their real life.

I was devoted to the Beatles as a child. I don't speak like a Liberpudlian. Neither do millions of British kids who worshipped the Beatles but didn't grow up in Liverpool and/or were raised in a home that spoke more standard British English. Embracing the entertainment culture of the time didn't necessarily determine speech patterns or other behaior. 

Again, humans aren't such simplistic mechanic devices as your statement seems to assume.

Main listening (small home office):

Main setup: Surge protector +>Isol-8 Mini sub Axis Power Strip/Isolation>QuietPC Low Noise Server>Roon (Audiolense DRC)>Stack Audio Link II>Kii Control>Kii Three (on their own electric circuit) >GIK Room Treatments.

Secondary Path: Server with Audiolense RC>RPi4 or analog>Cayin iDAC6 MKII (tube mode) (XLR)>Kii Three .

Bedroom: SBTouch to Cambridge Soundworks Desktop Setup.
Living Room/Kitchen: Ropieee (RPi3b+ with touchscreen) + Schiit Modi3E to a pair of Morel Hogtalare. 

All absolute statements about audio are false :)

Link to comment
1 hour ago, Speed Racer said:

 

Considering the size of the white poplulation, why is that so hard to believe? And, what does that have to do with anything anyway?

 

It may reflect a life totally different than yours. But for the guys writing the words, and the community they come from, not so much. That's why the words are so vile.....it's how they actually think.

Or not. How do you know? And who are "they"?

 

When George Harrison wrote "Pigigies" do you  really think he personally thought "they" need "a damn good whacking"? And that he was advocating that each member of his audience whack someone from the establishment.

I don't, and nothing in his life would make you think he did. 

Is it really hard to understand that song lyrics can be written in the same way as a work of fiction is? Do you ascribe every action of a character in a novel to the writer?

Main listening (small home office):

Main setup: Surge protector +>Isol-8 Mini sub Axis Power Strip/Isolation>QuietPC Low Noise Server>Roon (Audiolense DRC)>Stack Audio Link II>Kii Control>Kii Three (on their own electric circuit) >GIK Room Treatments.

Secondary Path: Server with Audiolense RC>RPi4 or analog>Cayin iDAC6 MKII (tube mode) (XLR)>Kii Three .

Bedroom: SBTouch to Cambridge Soundworks Desktop Setup.
Living Room/Kitchen: Ropieee (RPi3b+ with touchscreen) + Schiit Modi3E to a pair of Morel Hogtalare. 

All absolute statements about audio are false :)

Link to comment
  • 4 weeks later...
2 hours ago, Sal1950 said:

MUSIC has real musicians playing musical instruments in it.

And vocalists that can really sing.

I find little of either in Rap / Hip Hop

Sal, I have a David Chesky record with two orchestral compositions. Both (except for some solo electric guitar in one), are played entirely on a synthesizer that has a bank of samples full of the actual sounds of all the instruments. No humans are involved in the playing. You feed the score in and it gets played as written.

The result is quite dramatic and emotional. 

Not music?

Main listening (small home office):

Main setup: Surge protector +>Isol-8 Mini sub Axis Power Strip/Isolation>QuietPC Low Noise Server>Roon (Audiolense DRC)>Stack Audio Link II>Kii Control>Kii Three (on their own electric circuit) >GIK Room Treatments.

Secondary Path: Server with Audiolense RC>RPi4 or analog>Cayin iDAC6 MKII (tube mode) (XLR)>Kii Three .

Bedroom: SBTouch to Cambridge Soundworks Desktop Setup.
Living Room/Kitchen: Ropieee (RPi3b+ with touchscreen) + Schiit Modi3E to a pair of Morel Hogtalare. 

All absolute statements about audio are false :)

Link to comment
13 minutes ago, DRB100 said:

Go have top classical experts compare the computer version to a top recordings of a great performance by a top orchestra and see what they say.  Make sure they're blindfolded.

 

I wouldn't want to pay money to hear a computer replay someone else's score or performance.  Maybe that's why I stick to listening to music that has a lot of improvisational aspects to it.  Computers can't do that.

 

 

Well, classical musicians who heard the record thought it was quite good. Their only comment about the playing was that they could tell it wasn't a human orchestra - not because the playing wasn't good, but because the timing of the orchestra was too perfect. But that was just an observation, not a criticism.

 

I also listen to a lot of improvised music. I don't see the contradiction. Classical and some other musics work from a score and don't have a lot of spontaneity - I enjoy both types.

Two other suggestions: You might want to actually listen to it before you make up your mind about it. Second, as a newbie to the site, may I suggest that commenting that someone lacks a soul because of a record they mentioned is not a great tactic to employ. Putting a smiley after it doesn't mean it isn't an insult.

Main listening (small home office):

Main setup: Surge protector +>Isol-8 Mini sub Axis Power Strip/Isolation>QuietPC Low Noise Server>Roon (Audiolense DRC)>Stack Audio Link II>Kii Control>Kii Three (on their own electric circuit) >GIK Room Treatments.

Secondary Path: Server with Audiolense RC>RPi4 or analog>Cayin iDAC6 MKII (tube mode) (XLR)>Kii Three .

Bedroom: SBTouch to Cambridge Soundworks Desktop Setup.
Living Room/Kitchen: Ropieee (RPi3b+ with touchscreen) + Schiit Modi3E to a pair of Morel Hogtalare. 

All absolute statements about audio are false :)

Link to comment
17 minutes ago, DRB100 said:

They could tell it wasn't a human orchestra?  Well, then there's your answer.  They could tell.   And yes, I would infer that to be a criticism, but maybe you are just trying to validate that you like the computerized version for some reason.  I would prefer the human orchestra, sorry but that's how I am. I like the human element, especially since it was written for humans in the first place.

 

No, that's uninformed speculation by someone who hasn't heard the record or read what the musicians said about it, and is just projecting preconceptions onto it. The actual context of the comments was quite positive, more along the lines of - "it was so good I knew it couldn't be a real orchestra", not the opposite. The simple truth is that the actual classical musicians didn't react the way you assumed they would have - they liked the record.

And the record wasn't written for humans in the first place. It was planned to be played by a sampling computer. 

Main listening (small home office):

Main setup: Surge protector +>Isol-8 Mini sub Axis Power Strip/Isolation>QuietPC Low Noise Server>Roon (Audiolense DRC)>Stack Audio Link II>Kii Control>Kii Three (on their own electric circuit) >GIK Room Treatments.

Secondary Path: Server with Audiolense RC>RPi4 or analog>Cayin iDAC6 MKII (tube mode) (XLR)>Kii Three .

Bedroom: SBTouch to Cambridge Soundworks Desktop Setup.
Living Room/Kitchen: Ropieee (RPi3b+ with touchscreen) + Schiit Modi3E to a pair of Morel Hogtalare. 

All absolute statements about audio are false :)

Link to comment
  • 2 weeks later...
On 6/30/2017 at 4:33 PM, prerich said:

Most music today is a form of amusement or to get you to stop thinking. I like any music that makes me think whether if it's something you did during the performance, or if its something you said. 

And that isn't new. Popular music has mostly been like that for it's entire history.

 

In the golden age of jazz, the most popular artists weren't the ones we revere today - Ellington, Parker, etc. A lot of the most popular music was made by secondary artists just out to make a buck. 

 

In the late 50's and early 60's popular music was again mostly junk. Ever hear "Polka Dot Bikini"?

 

In the US, an actual artist like Buddy Holly didn't sell that well and after his death was mostly forgotten. A lot of American kids had no idea who he or other American performers (like Motown and other blues and R&B artists) were until the Beatles and the rest of the British invasion groups popularized their music in the US. 

 

And where do you think the idea of "june and spoon" lyrics came from? Not from the rap era. Most writers of popular lyrics haven't been Cole Porter like or even Dylanesque.

 

Even in the mid-60's to mid 70's, when popular music was supposedly "serious": the Monkees outsold the Beatles in 67, the animated Archies (many of the same players as the first Monkees album, I believe) were big sellers, and who can forget the deep and meaningful music made by groups like "Three Dog Night"?

 

I actually like some of that music, but let's stop pretending that popular music has mostly been some high level art form until rap and hip-hop came along. 

Main listening (small home office):

Main setup: Surge protector +>Isol-8 Mini sub Axis Power Strip/Isolation>QuietPC Low Noise Server>Roon (Audiolense DRC)>Stack Audio Link II>Kii Control>Kii Three (on their own electric circuit) >GIK Room Treatments.

Secondary Path: Server with Audiolense RC>RPi4 or analog>Cayin iDAC6 MKII (tube mode) (XLR)>Kii Three .

Bedroom: SBTouch to Cambridge Soundworks Desktop Setup.
Living Room/Kitchen: Ropieee (RPi3b+ with touchscreen) + Schiit Modi3E to a pair of Morel Hogtalare. 

All absolute statements about audio are false :)

Link to comment
15 hours ago, DRB100 said:

 

by Definition, art music is music that's not intended to be commercially marketed to sell albums.   Pop music is created to be commercially successful.  Those are the two extremes and then there is different levels in between.  To sell albums they have to figure out what sells.  With Rap, it's vulgar lyrics is what sells.  Two Live Crew started that trend In the beginning with their rap version of Doo Wah Diddy.  

You are quite mistaken if you think Charlie Parker, Duke Ellington and the Beatles weren't trying to be commercial. They were trying as hard as they could to make music they liked and that would sell -and sell big. They freely talked about it, and admitted freely that their recording decisions -material, arrangements - were often dictated by commercial considerations. 

 

I'm pretty sure that when: a) Charlie Parker made a single called "Romance Without Finance" with a lead singer and lyrics about a guy pimping his girlfriend; or ( b) the Beatles wrote a song called "From Me to You"  - that commercial success was their main consideration. Not high levels of art and sophistication. 

 

Again, your argument that Rap is somehow unique in the history of popular music because it is appealing to a low common denominator (by your definition) has no basis in history or facts. 

 

As Chris said, keep digging that hole for your position that has little to do with the history of popular music, or any facts, unless you subscribe to that universe of "alternate facts". 

Main listening (small home office):

Main setup: Surge protector +>Isol-8 Mini sub Axis Power Strip/Isolation>QuietPC Low Noise Server>Roon (Audiolense DRC)>Stack Audio Link II>Kii Control>Kii Three (on their own electric circuit) >GIK Room Treatments.

Secondary Path: Server with Audiolense RC>RPi4 or analog>Cayin iDAC6 MKII (tube mode) (XLR)>Kii Three .

Bedroom: SBTouch to Cambridge Soundworks Desktop Setup.
Living Room/Kitchen: Ropieee (RPi3b+ with touchscreen) + Schiit Modi3E to a pair of Morel Hogtalare. 

All absolute statements about audio are false :)

Link to comment

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now



×
×
  • Create New...