ISO REGEN Listening Impressions (kicked off with some measurements)

[Superdad]

18 hours ago, Em2016 said:

What was the drama with the Silenna chip - output jitter which affected the output signal integrity?

 

No that was not the issue at all.   The challenges with use of the Silanna chip are more technical than I care to get into, and the solutions are not something I would want to discuss in public anyway (we worked hard with the Silanna engineers and other, later firms have already benefited from what we found).

 

The jitter added by the Silanna is no worse than what typical digital isolators add.  [But DACs and DDCs that use them ALWAYS do so on the critical I2S lines after the USB processor. That's a MUCH more sensitive spot--on the way to the DAC chips--so most always a designer will use a reclocking flip-fop right after any isolator.]

And of course the Silanna's jitter is tamed by the hub chip's complete decoding-recoding protocol engine.

 

Quote

Is that where adding the low phase noise Crystek clock solved the issue? Or was the Crystek clock already there for the uBer Regen planned last year?

 

The ultra-low-phase-noise Crystek CCHD-575 was planned anyway.  It is a benefit in all cases.  And to be clear, über-REGEN was never a planned product.  We got first samples of the Silanna near the end of 2015 (we were the very first audio company to approach them, and were the first to propose using their chip in conjunction with a hub chip).  But there were times (such as April 2016) when the frustrations of making the Silanna function properly had us discussing simply putting out a greatly enhanced REGEN without the galvanic isolation.

In hindsight, given all that this has taken, we probably should have done so.  Chalk it up to stubbornness--or stupidity.   

And yet here we are, with the ISO REGEN being another big hit.

[asdf1000]

3 minutes ago, Superdad said:

No that was not the issue at all.

 

Fantastic, thanks for sharing Alex. And congrats on all the success.

[RickyV]

Oh i can't wait, my iso regen lps1 combo is at the dutch customs. 

Hopefully i can listen to it this week, it was a long wait.

[Ciukas]

Just got my ISO Regen/LPS-1 combo this afternoon. Didn't need a burn in to immediately hear the benefits of a dedicated reclocker/regen/galvanic iso in my audio setup. The difference is very easily noticeable within the first few seconds of A/B comparisons. So far, only tried w Roon > ISO Regen/LPS-1 > Lush > Hugo 2 > Lionheart cable > LCDi4... I am highly impressed at the difference this tiny gadget makes. Will report back later when fully broken in.

[Cornan]

I got my ISORegen today. The journey started with a dissapointment but ended up with a big smile. It sounded harsh and hollow compared to the Regen Amber, but I definately heard a lot of good stuff too. Since my unshielded Elijah Audio Konvertible Lite 500 are without 5v lead (& with GND lift) I had to dig up my "old" shielded Vertere Pulse D-Fi V2 USB cable and use it between IR and Aries Mini (USPCB used between Brooklyn DAC and Regen of course), so I suspected where to start digging. I immediately taped the barrels of Vertere's USB plug to isolate the shield. Much better. It was a releif, but it still sounded too harsh and the goose-bumps was still lost from Regen Amber setup. Experimented further a couple of hours with battery injection that did'nt work flawless, but I clearly noticed an improvement which made me investigate it further. An hour ago I struck gold with my setup sounding amazing and with more of those goose-bumps I just love.

 

With the unshielded Elijah Audio K-Lite back with GND lifted, the Teradak USB injection powered by a floating PSU (connected to a safety IT) and the ISORegen with isolation OFF everything just sounds magical. 

 

So now I'm stuck here in my favourite chair listening to familiar albums. Enjoying music immensely and having very thankful thoughts to @Superdad and @JohnSwenson for creating yet another great product. It started rough but I am now smiling from ear to ear and my setup sounds better than ever before! Great stuff!?

 

 

[JohnSwenson]

2 hours ago, Johnseye said:

 

I'm using the USPCB, Curious Cable with length for the Regen (very short), stock cable that come with the IR, stock cable with Benchmark DAC and the Lush. All exhibit the same behavior. All cables are less than a meter. 

 

I stuck a cable into a gap between the USB out and IR chassis, connecting the other end of the cable to both another device's grounded chassis as well as the house ground. No dice with either. The IR wire galvanic isolation on will not pass the signal. 

 

For kicks I turned off the USPSBs 5v setting. This freaked the IR out. I'm not sure what's wrong with it now but it won't pass a signal even with galvanic isolation off. I still need to try it with the sMS-200. I tried the other IR as I still have it and it will work with galvanic isolation off. Now the replacement won't. Go figure. 

Is the USPCB before or after the ISO REGEN? If it is upstream, turning the 5V off will definitely cause the ISO REGEN to not work. If it is downstream 5V off may or may not cause a DAC not to work.

 

When you turn the 5V back on things don't work at all? Have you checked the computer and seen if it sees the ISO REGEN as a hub? It should do that even if the DAC is having problems connecting.

 

When you tried the grounding were you grounding the upstream or downstream side? I have seen this work on the downstream side but not the upstream side. But that usually does not have anything to do with the DAC not connecting at all, it has to do with eliminating clicks or dropouts.

 

So with the switch set to non-ISO the DAC connects? With the switch in ISO it will not connect no matter what order things are turned on etc? Is the PC running windows? Do you have a windows driver for the DAC? If so I have seen problems with that. But if it works with the switch in non-ISO position then it probably is not that.

 

John S.

[Johnseye]

6 hours ago, JohnSwenson said:

Is the USPCB before or after the ISO REGEN? If it is upstream, turning the 5V off will definitely cause the ISO REGEN to not work. If it is downstream 5V off may or may not cause a DAC not to work.

 

It was before the IR.

 

Quote

 

When you turn the 5V back on things don't work at all? Have you checked the computer and seen if it sees the ISO REGEN as a hub? It should do that even if the DAC is having problems connecting.

 

Correct, after using the IR with the 5v off the IR will not work at all.  Everything will still work without the IR.  I've checked it when I was running Windows.  Connecting the IR to the PC only shows it as a hub. Then when I connect the IR to the DAC the IR disappears from Windows device manager.  I can't check this now with Linux.

 

 

Quote

 

When you tried the grounding were you grounding the upstream or downstream side? I have seen this work on the downstream side but not the upstream side. But that usually does not have anything to do with the DAC not connecting at all, it has to do with eliminating clicks or dropouts.

 

I grounded the downstream side.  USB out to the DAC.

 

Quote

 

So with the switch set to non-ISO the DAC connects? With the switch in ISO it will not connect no matter what order things are turned on etc? Is the PC running windows? Do you have a windows driver for the DAC? If so I have seen problems with that. But if it works with the switch in non-ISO position then it probably is not that.

 

John S.

 

With the switch set to non ISO the DAC connects.  With it in ISO it will not connect no matter the power up order.  Keep in mind this is direct from the  ASUS PC motherboard.  With a sMS-200 in line, either way will work.  At first the IR would not work with the sMS200, then it just started working with it.  I did nothing different as it will now work with the sMS200 no matter what order I power things on or connect.

 

I'm using Roon ROCK currently, which is Linux.  I started with Windows 2016 Server, then installed Windows 10, then Roon ROCK.  All exhibit the same behavior.

 

This happens with 2 different DACs.  While they are from different manufacturers, both use the same driver program in Windows.  Different drivers of course, but there is a program with USB control panel which provides limited configurations in Windows and that's the same.  With the Roon Linux distro there is nothing like that in play.

 

 

[Johnseye]

I experimented around some more.  I had an older PC lying around so I installed Roon ROCK on it and tried it direct to the Audio Alchemy DAC with IR in between.  At first it didn't work.  Then I tried it with the Benchmark DAC.  It did work, and it worked with galvanic isolation on.  Then I switched back to the Audio Alchemy DAC.  It also worked and with galvanic isolation on.  Then I went back to the newer PC.  No connection with galvanic isolation on.  I turned it off, it saw the Audio Alchemy DAC and played music, but with static.  Back to the Benchmark DAC, new PC with IR in between.  It will play music, but not with galvanic isolation on.

 

No consistency.  Some things trigger the IR to not pass audio or allow the DAC to be seen.  Some things trigger it back and allow it to pass audio.  I've spent countless hours over the past week testing various scenarios with no reliable consistency when the IR is in line.  @JohnSwenson and/or @Superdad please see my response in previous post as well as this one.  If any of this gives you some insight let me know.

 

 The new PC's power supply is currently a HDPLEX Internal 160W AC Power Adapter w/PFC 19VDC.  Not sure if that helps.

https://www.hdplex.com/hdplex-internal-160w-ac-dc-adapter-with-active-pfc-and-19vdc-output.html

 

[agladstone]

57 minutes ago, Johnseye said:

I experimented around some more.  I had an older PC lying around so I installed Roon ROCK on it and tried it direct to the Audio Alchemy DAC with IR in between.  At first it didn't work.  Then I tried it with the Benchmark DAC.  It did work, and it worked with galvanic isolation on.  Then I switched back to the Audio Alchemy DAC.  It also worked and with galvanic isolation on.  Then I went back to the newer PC.  No connection with galvanic isolation on.  I turned it off, it saw the Audio Alchemy DAC and played music, but with static.  Back to the Benchmark DAC, new PC with IR in between.  It will play music, but not with galvanic isolation on.

 

No consistency.  Some things trigger the IR to not pass audio or allow the DAC to be seen.  Some things trigger it back and allow it to pass audio.  I've spent countless hours over the past week testing various scenarios with no reliable consistency when the IR is in line.  @JohnSwenson and/or @Superdad please see my response in previous post as well as this one.  If any of this gives you some insight let me know.

 

 The new PC's power supply is currently a HDPLEX Internal 160W AC Power Adapter w/PFC 19VDC.  Not sure if that helps.

https://www.hdplex.com/hdplex-internal-160w-ac-dc-adapter-with-active-pfc-and-19vdc-output.html

 

Maybe you got a defective unit?? 

[Johnseye]

53 minutes ago, agladstone said:

Maybe you got a defective unit?? 

 

I've tried two IRs. 

[kalinka]

Listened to the Iso Regen the whole day today, with the galvanic isolation defeated. It's the only way to not have any dropouts.

 

Well, I'm liking it even without the galvanic isolation feature. Tomorrow I'll listen to it a bit more, then I'll give my impressions.

[Kritpoon]

19 hours ago, JohnSwenson said:

Alex is on vacation for several days, (after working like crazy to get a whole bunch of products out the door) so I will make an attempt at answering some of these.

 

The several issues with the ISO REGEN seem to be related to static build up in the isolated system. With everything isolated you block the leakage loops, but you also can get charge buildup which can cause data interruption when it discharges. The switch when in the "non-ISO" position shorts the grounds from upstream to downstream, which may fix that problem, but then leakage current can sail right through.

 

If you are having these problems the best solution seems to be to try the switch, if that fixes the problem, turn the switch back to the isolated position and try grounding ONE point in the downstream system (DAC, preamp etc). This will allow the ISO REGEN to block leakage currents from the upstream side but still get rid of the charge buildup.

 

In the coming weeks Alex and I will be doing some tests on this and try and come up with some recommendations to fix this.

 

John S.

Hi John,

 

By grounding, if I am to use one of the grounding box connected to the downstream device would that work?

[JohnSwenson]

1 hour ago, Kritpoon said:

Hi John,

 

By grounding, if I am to use one of the grounding box connected to the downstream device would that work?

It has to be a real earth ground, like the ground pin of a three pin AC plug. If you have your whole system floating then adding the ISO REGEN can cause the segment from the ISO REGEN to the DAC usb receiver to be floating, it can then develop voltage relative to other parts which causes data errors when they discharge.

 

The non-ISO setting connects the DAC input to the computer ground, which may be enough to drain the charge. If the switch is in ISO mode then you may need some other connection to an earth ground to drain the charge.

 

John S.

[kalinka]

My DAC power supply doesn't even have a ground pin... so, no galvanic isolation for me? @JohnSwenson

[JohnSwenson]

1 hour ago, kalinka said:

My DAC power supply doesn't even have a ground pin... so, no galvanic isolation for me? @JohnSwenson

The traditional way to add an earth ground into a certain spot in a system is to buy a 3 pin plug (whichever is appropriate for your country) and connect a green wire up to the ground pin of the plug. Plug it in to an outlet near the DAC. If your DAC has isolation and the USB receiver is powered from the USB cable, then you need to connect the ground wire to the shell of one of the USB jacks (downstream of ISO REGEN or upstream of DAC. If the DAC does not have isolation, then grounding the chassis of the DAC is probably sufficient.

 

John S.

[PeteGardner]

On 8/30/2017 at 5:51 AM, esmit said:

I also have issues with the TT remote, sometimes it suddenly mutes when continuously pressing volume down, I have to press volume down one click by one click. I suspect the IR codes used for the remote overlap somehow with other manufacturers IR codes, which might explain the channel switching. I programmed a Harmony Hub to be able to control the TT with an app on my phone and that works better, mainly because the TT is at a fixed volume and I control the volume by turning up the amplifiers volume. 

My rig is 

MicroRendu 1.3 >Curious USB>IR with LPS-1>USCPB>Chord Hugo TT>Psvane TC5>Totem Model One Signatures but I do get those problems as soon as I feed the TT to my Audeze LCD3 and I have to use the TT volume control. I used a 6mm bamboo board to get the microrendu and isoregen on the same level as the HD USB input.

I would suspect not a lot of extra quality for the HD input compared to SD as Spotify will not need the HD sample rates. FLAC might be a difference if it surpasses 44 or 48 khz 16 bits.

Thanks Esmit for your feedback. The remote only plays up with volume so not too much of a problem to deal with.

 

BUT, I now have the HD input repaired and I still have the same issue with random input switching. I have spent the last few days trying different combos. I took the Jitterbug out of the chain with no change. I switched off the ISO which seems to lessen the amount of input switching but leaves me constantly worrying when it might happen again, which it inevitably does. The input switching (and sometimes Muting) only stops when I take the IR out of the chain. Is there ANY fix for this or will I have to reluctantly have to return it???

[flummoxe]

13 minutes ago, PeteGardner said:

Thanks Esmit for your feedback. The remote only plays up with volume so not too much of a problem to deal with.

 

BUT, I now have the HD input repaired and I still have the same issue with random input switching. I have spent the last few days trying different combos. I took the Jitterbug out of the chain with no change. I switched off the ISO which seems to lessen the amount of input switching but leaves me constantly worrying when it might happen again, which it inevitably does. The input switching (and sometimes Muting) only stops when I take the IR out of the chain. Is there ANY fix for this or will I have to reluctantly have to return it???

 

Hi Pete,

 

I have a TT and have no issues like yours. Have you spoken to Chord as they are very helpful.

 

 

 

 

[esmit]

8 minutes ago, kalinka said:

 

But... if the PSU has only two pins, how it will be connected to the ground wire? I mean, there would be no contact point between the PSU and the ground wire, even if I use a separate plug.

True. As long as the DAC housing (or the shell of one of the USB jacks) is connected to ground you should be fine. The PSU is less important.

 

 

[esmit]

21 minutes ago, kalinka said:

Ok, I guess I understand it now.

 

But, where I should attach the ground end then?

To the outer side of a USB port OR to the chassis of the DAC if it is made of metal.

I now noticed you are using a euro 2 pin, you would need to use a euro plug and just the green/yellow wire as you can see in http://www.klusbeter.nl/elektra-en-verlichting/schakelmateriaal/stekker-aansluiten/  and try to connect the other end of the greenyellow to the DACs housing or the USB outer shell.

[JohnSwenson]

On 9/4/2017 at 0:56 PM, kalinka said:

Ok, I guess I understand it now.

 

But, where I should attach the ground end then?

Here is a picture of a commercially available product for american outlets. It has two plastic spades that go into the hot and neutral slots and a metal round pin that connects to the ground in the plug. This one has a banana jack so you can plug in any wire with a banana plug at one end.

 

 

Devices like these are sold for anti-static systems, so should be available to fit most outlets around the world. Or you can do it yourself and just buy a power plug and just connect the ground wire.

 

If you want to find one on the net, do a search for anti-static strap and give the plug type, or country or region, you should be able to find something off the shelf.

 

John S.

[scottmac62]

Hi John,  

 

So, my Luxman DA-06 DAC does not have a ground pin input on the DAC side.  I do use a Synergistic Research Grounding Block which has a ground wire from the earth outlet that connects to the grounding block.  From the block an RCA wire creates a common try-star ground on the DAC's RCA input.  The SR grounding block does create a much more organic feel with or without the IR.  However, with both of the IR's I received, it did not eliminate the clicks.  So, I am wondering if the SR grounding block does the same thing that an earth wire from an outlet to the DAC's chassis would do?

[sdube]

On 9/2/2017 at 6:01 PM, kalinka said:

Listened to the Iso Regen the whole day today, with the galvanic isolation defeated. It's the only way to not have any dropouts.

 

Well, I'm liking it even without the galvanic isolation feature. Tomorrow I'll listen to it a bit more, then I'll give my impressions.

I have been in touch about this issue with Superdad/Alex. He suggested that I switch off the Galvanic Isolation on IR, and I did that today. I have no dropout now. But also the music is sounding clearer and more compelling. Is this possible? As my signature line below would show I go from the UpToned Mac Mini on Js-2 over a LH Labs Lightspeed 10 G USB (change from Curious USB) cable to an LPS-1 (also on JS-2) onto the IR thence through the new hard adapter to  Berkeley Alpha USB to a Metrum Pavane DAC.  What might be the reason for the sound/music being clearer? Am I dreaming things? Clearly, my gear is grounded: Do I need to ground something upstream, and how, in order to get benefits of Galvanic Isolation? A bit confused. Please help.

[kalinka]

Grounding the Iso Regen itself would solve the dropout problem?

[sdube]

16 hours ago, sdube said:

I have been in touch about this issue with Superdad/Alex. He suggested that I switch off the Galvanic Isolation on IR, and I did that today. I have no dropout now. But also the music is sounding clearer and more compelling. Is this possible? As my signature line below would show I go from the UpToned Mac Mini on Js-2 over a LH Labs Lightspeed 10 G USB (change from Curious USB) cable to an LPS-1 (also on JS-2) onto the IR thence through the new hard adapter to  Berkeley Alpha USB to a Metrum Pavane DAC.  What might be the reason for the sound/music being clearer? Am I dreaming things? Clearly, my gear is grounded: Do I need to ground something upstream, and how, in order to get benefits of Galvanic Isolation? A bit confused. Please help.

My stuff all is ground(ed). Yet, the skitish-ness of Berkeley Alpha USB goes away only when the Galvanic Isolation (GI) is turned off. What should I do to defeat this problem and have the GI on? The music is great without the GI though.

[Cornan]

1 hour ago, sdube said:

The music is great without the GI though.

+1 The sound with ISO Regens GI turned off is just sooo much better in my setup that with the GI turned on. I have no problem with this. I actually see it as a good sign! ?