ISO REGEN Listening Impressions (kicked off with some measurements)

[musicguy]

@jcn3

 

I get what your saying.   But if im powering it by the lps 1.2 does it need the usb 5 volt signal.   NO one has answered this.   Thats 2 pwer supplies.   so is the 5 volts a signal input now??

 

musicguy

 

[ray-dude]

The ISORegen takes power from USB Vbus on the input side, and from (in your case) the LPS 1.2.

 

The ISORegen outputs clean voltage on the USB to whatever is downrange.

 

If you want all clean power to the ISO Regen, you can get something like the iFi Defender.  That allows you to inject 5V to Vbus on the input to the ISO Regen.  I found that this does have a positive impact on SQ, but you do need a 2nd supply for the iFi Defender (to inject clean Vbus into the ISO Regen)

 

Another more aggressive way is to have two ISO Regens in series.  In this case, the second ISO Regen is getting clean Vbus from the first ISO Regen, and a cleaner baseline USB signal.  When running with ISO Regen's in series, I was surprised how much of a positive impact it had in my system.  I can't clearly say whether that was because of clean Vbus into the 2nd ISO Regen, or the cleaner baseline USB signal, or both.

 

When running ISO Regen's in series, I powered them with a single LPS 1.2 (with a DC splitter cable from Ghent audio), and by having a battery pack on the first Iso Regen and an LPS 1.2 on the 2nd ISO Regen.  I slightly preferred the former configuration, but only very slightly.

 

All this power stuff is crazy maddening.  If you want to take a trip into that rabbit hole, I documented some of my personal descent into madness here:

 

https://www.head-fi.org/showcase/audiowise-opto•dx-optical-isolation-bridge-for-dual-spdif.23757/reviews#review-22155

 

(If you don't want to go through the whole thing, search for "Impact of USB Vbus Isolation")

[Bdht]

49 minutes ago, musicguy said:

@jcn3

 

I get what your saying.   But if im powering it by the lps 1.2 does it need the usb 5 volt signal.   NO one has answered this.   Thats 2 pwer supplies.   so is the 5 volts a signal input now??

 

musicguy

 

As I said, the usb 5v only powers the galvanic isolation chip in the regen, if you disable it, you have to disable the isolation.

[left channel]

@musicguy the answers you're getting are not unusual: even when being powered via an external PSU on a different jack, many devices still require the USB 5v line for full functionality. That includes a DAC or two, not just UpTone products. Doesn't make sense at first glance, but there you have it.

[jcn3]

2 hours ago, musicguy said:

@jcn3

 

I get what your saying.   But if im powering it by the lps 1.2 does it need the usb 5 volt signal.   NO one has answered this.   Thats 2 pwer supplies.   so is the 5 volts a signal input now??

 

musicguy

 

 

yes, you need the 5v signal via usb AND the lps1.2 for the isoregen.

[JohnSwenson]

The upstream USB jack VBUS pin powers the upstream port of the isolation chip. That is the ONLY way it gets powered. The DC jack powers the REST of the circuit. If you block the VBUS on the USB cable the upstream port does not get powered and the device will not work at all.

 

The isolating chip takes TWO power supplies one for the input side and one for the output side. The whole purpose of an isolation chip is that there is NO electrical connection between the two sides. This includes power supplies. If both sides had the same power supply then any noise on the ground plane on one side would couple directly to the other side. For the isolation to work you HAVE to have separate power supplies.

 

For USB the power for the upstream side can come from the VBUS, supplied by the computer, no separate power supply needed. For the downstream side, you DO need a separate supply, which is what the DC jack is for.

 

There are such things called DC injector cables where you can use an external DC supply to power VBUS rather than using the VBUS from the computer. I don't have much experience with these so cannot recommend a specific one.

 

John S.

[musicguy]

Thank you for everyone helps.

 

Look like a normal wired usb cable then.

 

music guy

[thatsagoodie]

Received my ISO Regen /Ultracap PS today.  Listening to CCR live at Woodstock on Tidal.  Great sound, very natural, like being there.  Drums on Suzy Q intro are perfect.  Thank you, Uptone! 

Reference 3a Reflectors, Pass Labs XA 25, Oppo UDP 205, Audible Illusions 3A.

[soares]

1 hour ago, thatsagoodie said:

Received my ISO Regen /Ultracap PS today.  Listening to CCR live at Woodstock on Tidal.  Great sound, very natural, like being there.  Drums on Suzy Q intro are perfect.  Thank you, Uptone! 

Reference 3a Reflectors, Pass Labs XA 25, Oppo UDP 205, Audible Illusions 3A.

Try also grounding your OPPO. It makes a substantial difference! 

Cheers Jorge

[musicguy]

So I have a week on my isoregen?lps1.2. 

 

Holy cow!!  Even with headphones  the soundstage opened up a lot.   Im building another mac mini?uptone for my 2 channel.  I cant wait.  

 

musicguy

[LewinskiH01]

Hello guys.

 

Reading about ISO Regen with interest. I didn't have the temper to go through 41 pages in this thread, though. I understand it improves the signal integrity, matches impedance between PC and USB DAC, and reclocks the USB output. I also understand these are key attributes if a general purpose PC is used. I wanted to gather input from users for a case such as mine: a dedicated, purpose-built PC, no motors or moving parts, linear power supply, Paul Pang USB card, Audiophile Optimizer, Win Server 2012 R2 in minimal server mode. Should I expect a significant impact on sound?

 

Thank you in advance!

[lmitche]

53 minutes ago, LewinskiH01 said:

Hello guys.

 

Reading about ISO Regen with interest. I didn't have the temper to go through 41 pages in this thread, though. I understand it improves the signal integrity, matches impedance between PC and USB DAC, and reclocks the USB output. I also understand these are key attributes if a general purpose PC is used. I wanted to gather input from users for a case such as mine: a dedicated, purpose-built PC, no motors or moving parts, linear power supply, Paul Pang USB card, Audiophile Optimizer, Win Server 2012 R2 in minimal server mode. Should I expect a significant impact on sound?

 

Thank you in advance!

Quite simply, yes. The ISO Regen delivers galvanic isolation between it's two sides breaking any ground loop between your PC and DAC. This isolation is missing from your otherwise excellent list of it's properties.

[Bdht]

1 hour ago, LewinskiH01 said:

Paul Pang USB card, Audiophile Optimizer, Win Server 2012 R2 in minimal server mode. Should I expect a significant impact on sound?

Definitely, even with a good usb output, any length of cable degrades signal integrity.

[ray-dude]

I’ll echo The above feedback, and add that with my DAC, the USB input is powered by USB Vbus (for galvanic isolation). The ISORegen with an LPS 1.2 injects high quality mains isolated Vbus into the DAC. I’ve found that cleaner power on the DAC usb input has a positive impact for me. 
 

[LewinskiH01]

8 hours ago, lmitche said:

Quite simply, yes. The ISO Regen delivers galvanic isolation between it's two sides breaking any ground loop between your PC and DAC. This isolation is missing from your otherwise excellent list of it's properties.

 

Thank you!

How do I know if I have a ground loop between PC and DAC? In the analog realm, ground loops are generally associated with hum, which I don't experience.

[lmitche]

1 hour ago, LewinskiH01 said:

 

Thank you!

How do I know if I have a ground loop between PC and DAC? In the analog realm, ground loops are generally associated with hum, which I don't experience.

Correct, in the analog domain a ground loop can be heard as a hum. In the digital domain the impact is more difficult to characterize, but could include smearing and a diminished sound stage as the ground loop impacts the analog side of the DAC.

 

You are best off giving the Uptone products a go, and returning if you are are not satisfied. You will be able to fully hear the impact within a day or two.

[LewinskiH01]

1 hour ago, lmitche said:

Correct, in the analog domain a ground loop can be heard as a hum. In the digital domain the impact is more difficult to characterize, but could include smearing and a diminished sound stage as the ground loop impacts the analog side of the DAC.

 

You are best off giving the Uptone products a go, and returning if you are are not satisfied. You will be able to fully hear the impact within a day or two.

 

 Got it. Thank you.

 

Would not even think twice about trying them if I were in the US. But I'm overseas and getting these is a painful process, hence the need for due diligence

 

How about the power supply? How sensitive are results to the quality of the PS?

What if I used a switching PS on the PC and a quality PS on the ISO Regen? Does the ISO Regen regeneration/reclocking/etc minimize the impact of the electrical noise upstream?

[ray-dude]

I think clean power makes a big difference for me. I ran a NUC with SmPS and ISORegen and found that it scaled very nicely from smps to battery to LPS 1.2. If have since received my Paul Hynes Sr4-19, but I haven’t had a chance to see what that brings to the ISORegen party. 
 

today, my IR is feeding a Matrix Audio XSPDIF DDC, with optical toslink going to my Dac. iR and power still makes a big impact for me. Previously, I actually ran two IR’s in series, battery power to first and LPS 1.2 to one closest to DAC. Stunning SQ in this configuration, but bit embarrassing to try to explain to civilians. 
 

my take away was that the IR also benefits from better power on input and better USB. My inference is that a better PC config matters with the IR as well. When I power my NUC with my SR4, the sq lift (with IR and Matrix Audio In the chain) is stunning. 
 

Alas, everything still matters (at least in my room and setup)
 

[lmitche]

1 hour ago, ray-dude said:

I think clean power makes a big difference for me. I ran a NUC with SmPS and ISORegen and found that it scaled very nicely from smps to battery to LPS 1.2. If have since received my Paul Hynes Sr4-19, but I haven’t had a chance to see what that brings to the ISORegen party. 
 

today, my IR is feeding a Matrix Audio XSPDIF DDC, with optical toslink going to my Dac. iR and power still makes a big impact for me. Previously, I actually ran two IR’s in series, battery power to first and LPS 1.2 to one closest to DAC. Stunning SQ in this configuration, but bit embarrassing to try to explain to civilians. 
 

my take away was that the IR also benefits from better power on input and better USB. My inference is that a better PC config matters with the IR as well. When I power my NUC with my SR4, the sq lift (with IR and Matrix Audio In the chain) is stunning. 
 

Alas, everything still matters (at least in my room and setup)
 

My setup  is very similar, with a SR-4 feeding an i7-NUC endpoint, LPS1.2 > ISO Regen (at 5 volts), LPS1.2 > USB injector, and LPS1.2 > Soekris 1321 DAC. SQ is marvelous.

 

Whenever an attempt to simplify things is conducted the ISO Regen inevitably ends up back in the chain.

[LewinskiH01]

How much current does the ISO Regen draw?

 

The Up Tone website says it needs a power supply in the 6 to 8V, but you are feeding it 5V, so the range is wider.

18 hours ago, lmitche said:

My setup  is very similar, with a SR-4 feeding an i7-NUC endpoint, LPS1.2 > ISO Regen (at 5 volts), LPS1.2 > USB injector, and LPS1.2 > Soekris 1321 DAC. SQ is marvelous.

 

Whenever an attempt to simplify things is conducted the ISO Regen inevitably ends up back in the chain.

 

The Up Tone website says it needs a power supply in the 6 to 8V, but you are feeding it 5V, so the range is wider.

 

How much current does the ISO Regen draw?

[lmitche]

1 hour ago, LewinskiH01 said:

How much current does the ISO Regen draw?

If you want an accurate answer it's best to have Alex @superdad answer this.

[Superdad]

3 hours ago, LewinskiH01 said:

How much current does the ISO Regen draw?

 

Through its DC jack—to power the five voltage regulators and devices on its downstream side—the ISO REGEN draws 240mA. Add to that whatever 5VBUS current is drawn by through its USB output jack by whatever DAC or DDC you have attached to the ISO REGEN.

 

Additionally, the ISO REGEN’s USB input itself draws 20mA of 5VBUS current from whatever computer source/host is feeding it.  This is used to power (another LT3042 set to 3.3V) the upstream side of the Silanna high-speed galvanic isolator chip at the input of the ISO REGEN.

[LewinskiH01]

3 hours ago, Superdad said:

 

Through its DC jack—to power the five voltage regulators and devices on its downstream side—the ISO REGEN draws 240mA. Add to that whatever 5VBUS current is drawn by through its USB output jack by whatever DAC or DDC you have attached to the ISO REGEN.

 

Additionally, the ISO REGEN’s USB input itself draws 20mA of 5VBUS current from whatever computer source/host is feeding it.  This is used to power (another LT3042 set to 3.3V) the upstream side of the Silanna high-speed galvanic isolator chip at the input of the ISO REGEN.

 

Thank you Alex.

240mA vs the 1.1A capacity of the LPS-1.2. Could one LPS-1.2 be used to power an ISO Regen and an EtherRegen? Would it create a ground loop?

 

[Superdad]

8 minutes ago, LewinskiH01 said:

240mA vs the 1.1A capacity of the LPS-1.2. Could one LPS-1.2 be used to power an ISO Regen and an EtherRegen? Would it create a ground loop?

 

No, you can not use a single UltraCap LPS-1.2 to power both an ISO REGEN and an EtherREGEN.  That is because the 12V is too high a voltage for the ISO REGEN, and while the EtherREGEN can run from 7V it draws over 1.3A at that.

Last night's test of the latest EtherREGEN pre-production boards have it drawing just 0.7A at 12V, so powering from an UltraCap LPS-1.2 set to 12V is assured. 

[LewinskiH01]

59 minutes ago, Superdad said:

 

No, you can not use a single UltraCap LPS-1.2 to power both an ISO REGEN and an EtherREGEN.  That is because the 12V is too high a voltage for the ISO REGEN, and while the EtherREGEN can run from 7V it draws over 1.3A at that.

Last night's test of the latest EtherREGEN pre-production boards have it drawing just 0.7A at 12V, so powering from an UltraCap LPS-1.2 set to 12V is assured. 

 

Got it. Thank you. Bummer 😊

 

To finalize re power: since it runs on 5V and draws 240mA, how's the sound if a USB battery, say a 13000mA Anker, is used? Would last about 50 hours without recharging. 

 

Moving to another topic: I convolve music to 6-channel stereo, which is sent from the PC to the DAC through USB. I imagine the ISO Regen is OK with that, but would like to confirm.

 

BTW, congrats on the progress with EtherRegen!