Mutec REF 10 Masterclock

[Johnseye]

5 minutes ago, baconbrain said:

 

In the end, one has to trust their own ears.

 

Yes, in the end that's all that matters

[Confused]

On ‎5‎/‎18‎/‎2019 at 5:30 PM, SlowikPL said:

 

 

Have you got envy experience in more BNC - cables being used MC3+USB/REF10  to generate the word clock with great success with a dCs - gear?

Not with dCS gear, no.  The only cables I have used are RG216 cables made by Pasternack and the Habst 75 ohm, with the Habst replacing a RG216 between my REF10 and MC3+USB.  I have not performed blind ABX comparisons, but as I recall I subjectively found quite an decent improvement with the Habst.  As to why the cable offers such an improvement it is hard to say, but it is generally reckoned that cable length is absolutely critical, so maybe there is some kind of signal degradation in the cable that influences the clock sync?  I too would like more hard information with respect to this point.

[baconbrain]

2 hours ago, Confused said:

Not with dCS gear, no.  The only cables I have used are RG216 cables made by Pasternack and the Habst 75 ohm, with the Habst replacing a RG216 between my REF10 and MC3+USB.  I have not performed blind ABX comparisons, but as I recall I subjectively found quite an decent improvement with the Habst.  As to why the cable offers such an improvement it is hard to say, but it is generally reckoned that cable length is absolutely critical, so maybe there is some kind of signal degradation in the cable that influences the clock sync?  I too would like more hard information with respect to this point.

Cable length and the quality of the shielding are definitely contributing factors according to Mutec.

 

@Confused Are you leaving the BNC Connection Terminal on the Ref 10 active, or inactive, for the additional Habst Ground connection?

[Confused]

1 hour ago, baconbrain said:

Cable length and the quality of the shielding are definitely contributing factors according to Mutec.

 

@Confused Are you leaving the BNC Connection Terminal on the Ref 10 active, or inactive, for the additional Habst Ground connection?

Inactive.  But now you have asked, I am wondering what happens when the terminal is inactive?  I presume it provides the ground as required?  I will need to investigate, unless someone has a definitive answer.  It instinctively seams wrong to send a 10 MHz clock signal down an earth wire?

[baconbrain]

19 hours ago, Confused said:

Inactive.  But now you have asked, I am wondering what happens when the terminal is inactive?  I presume it provides the ground as required?  I will need to investigate, unless someone has a definitive answer.  It instinctively seams wrong to send a 10 MHz clock signal down an earth wire?

Agree, mine is also inactive. The only thing which got me wondering was that if the terminal is inactive, is it then properly terminated, and if not, does that affect ground?

[Confused]

A bit of online searching found this:

 

https://m.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=1307154429365684&id=754616877952778&set=a.1307154209365706

 

Looking through the pictures, the Habst is connected to BNC connector 3 &  4, and the LED’s for 3 & 4 appear to be illuminated.  So now I am wondering.......

 

calling @julian.david , can you clarify or provide any advice?

[SlowikPL]

Hi ,

I wanted to know if my setting of my 2x Mutec MC-3 USB and my Ref 10 are proper. I`m using the Clocks witch my dCs Rossini only as a WordClock . One MC-3 is set 44,1 – and multiply of it  and other MC-3 48- and multiply of it .

Can somebody confirm my setting from the photo?

[MarkS]

I have looked through this entire thread.  It is incredibly interesting.  Can someone with a dCS Vivaldi system please tell me if they think adding the Mutec REF 10 as the reference clock for the Vivaldi Master Clock was an upgrade?  If I get the Mutec, I would also "clock" my EtherRegen with the Mutec reference clock.  It might be worth a try.

 

Separately, I am using four 1.25M Nordost Valhalla 2 75ohm BNC cables to word clock my three box Vivaldi system (dac, clock, and upsampler).  I see a lot of back and forth about Habst cables and also about cable length.  I recall reading something about 1.25M having some magic to it for digital cables, but I could be wrong.  Where does one get these Habst cables and are they what people think are best for clock cables?  If I get the Mutec, I would need to clock cables (one to the dCS Clock and one to the EtherRegen).  I am particularly interested to hear from @austinpop regarding the Habst bnc clocking cables.  He has provided me with invaluable advice.

 

Happy holidays everyone!!

[LowMidHigh]

4 minutes ago, MarkS said:

I have looked through this entire thread.  It is incredibly interesting.  Can someone with a dCS Vivaldi system please tell me if they think adding the Mutec REF 10 as the reference clock for the Vivaldi Master Clock was an upgrade?  If I get the Mutec, I would also "clock" my EtherRegen with the Mutec reference clock.  It might be worth a try.

 

Separately, I am using four 1.25M Nordost Valhalla 2 75ohm BNC cables to word clock my three box Vivaldi system (dac, clock, and upsampler).  I see a lot of back and forth about Habst cables and also about cable length.  I recall reading something about 1.25M having some magic to it for digital cables, but I could be wrong.  Where does one get these Habst cables and are they what people think are best for clock cables?  If I get the Mutec, I would need to clock cables (one to the dCS Clock and one to the EtherRegen).  I am particularly interested to hear from @austinpop regarding the Habst bnc clocking cables.  He has provided me with invaluable advice.

 

Happy holidays everyone!!

 

Hello Mark, 

 

First off, that "magic" number you refer to has no bearing on clock signal transmission. I don't recall the exact application in which it does make a difference, but it's easy enough to look up. 

 

I'm sure you want to hear otherwise, but coax cables don't, and can't, make any difference to the signal, unless out of spec or poorly made. 

 

As oppose to the ref clock under discussion, or power supplies for example, there is no coherent theory as why digital cables would make a difference. What we encounter is mostly mumbo-jumbo spewed by manufacturers and swallowed up wholesale by some gullible audiophiles. Case in point, AB/X tests between high end and cheap cables consistently fail to show a difference. 

 

Happy new year! 

[justubes]

On 7/2/2019 at 5:32 PM, SlowikPL said:

Hi ,

I wanted to know if my setting of my 2x Mutec MC-3 USB and my Ref 10 are proper. I`m using the Clocks witch my dCs Rossini only as a WordClock . One MC-3 is set 44,1 – and multiply of it  and other MC-3 48- and multiply of it .

Can somebody confirm my setting from the photo?

Hi,

 

Does not look right.

 

2nd column should also have the 2nd row, 10M also lighted.

 

That is, if you have the ref10 connected to both units. 10M has not been selected.

 

Let us know how it goes.

 

 

[auricgoldfinger]

1 hour ago, MarkS said:

I have looked through this entire thread.  It is incredibly interesting.  Can someone with a dCS Vivaldi system please tell me if they think adding the Mutec REF 10 as the reference clock for the Vivaldi Master Clock was an upgrade?  If I get the Mutec, I would also "clock" my EtherRegen with the Mutec reference clock.  It might be worth a try.

 

Separately, I am using four 1.25M Nordost Valhalla 2 75ohm BNC cables to word clock my three box Vivaldi system (dac, clock, and upsampler).  I see a lot of back and forth about Habst cables and also about cable length.  I recall reading something about 1.25M having some magic to it for digital cables, but I could be wrong.  Where does one get these Habst cables and are they what people think are best for clock cables?  If I get the Mutec, I would need to clock cables (one to the dCS Clock and one to the EtherRegen).  I am particularly interested to hear from @austinpop regarding the Habst bnc clocking cables.  He has provided me with invaluable advice.

 

Happy holidays everyone!!

 

Here is the link to the Habst clock cables:  http://habst.de/digital-xlr-rca-bnc.html  You can email the proprietor, Daniel, through the web contact form for more information.

 

As you have read on this thread and possibly elsewhere, clock cables affect the performance and sound quality of the master clock.  The Habst cable is an excellent choice, but there are other options as well.  I can personally vouch for the Habst cables as I use them in my system.

 

People have generally found the shortest possible length is preferable for clock cables.  A major advantage of the Habst cable is that it can be grounded to an unused BNC output on the REF 10, which significantly improves sound quality.  I ground mine to a Synergistic Research Active Ground Block for even better results.  You could probably do the same with your Entreq. 

 

 

[austinpop]

14 hours ago, MarkS said:

I have looked through this entire thread.  It is incredibly interesting.  Can someone with a dCS Vivaldi system please tell me if they think adding the Mutec REF 10 as the reference clock for the Vivaldi Master Clock was an upgrade?  If I get the Mutec, I would also "clock" my EtherRegen with the Mutec reference clock.  It might be worth a try.

 

Separately, I am using four 1.25M Nordost Valhalla 2 75ohm BNC cables to word clock my three box Vivaldi system (dac, clock, and upsampler).  I see a lot of back and forth about Habst cables and also about cable length.  I recall reading something about 1.25M having some magic to it for digital cables, but I could be wrong.  Where does one get these Habst cables and are they what people think are best for clock cables?  If I get the Mutec, I would need to clock cables (one to the dCS Clock and one to the EtherRegen).  I am particularly interested to hear from @austinpop regarding the Habst bnc clocking cables.  He has provided me with invaluable advice.

 

Happy holidays everyone!!

 

12 hours ago, auricgoldfinger said:

 

Here is the link to the Habst clock cables:  http://habst.de/digital-xlr-rca-bnc.html  You can email the proprietor, Daniel, through the web contact form for more information.

 

As you have read on this thread and possibly elsewhere, clock cables affect the performance and sound quality of the master clock.  The Habst cable is an excellent choice, but there are other options as well.  I can personally vouch for the Habst cables as I use them in my system.

 

People have generally found the shortest possible length is preferable for clock cables.  A major advantage of the Habst cable is that it can be grounded to an unused BNC output on the REF 10, which significantly improves sound quality.  I ground mine to a Synergistic Research Active Ground Block for even better results.  You could probably do the same with your Entreq. 

 

 

 

Hi Mark,

 

@auricgoldfinger gave you very useful info and covered most of the bases.

 

I have certainly found BNC cables to make a difference. I've only tried a few, but can say that the Habst is the best I've tried, followed by the SOtM. The Habst is more natural, full-bodied, and has cleaner transients, while the SOtM is smooth, with a rich tonality. Both are a big step up from generic cables.

 

Best I can tell, the rules of thumb regarding optimal length of BNC cables are in the context of S/PDIF and word clock applications, where we are talking about digital audio sample rates (frequencies from 44.1 to 768kHz). Since the Ref-10 cables carry 10 MHz, I don't know if this holds. Based on my very limited experiments, the shorter seems to be the better. I have 0.5m cables in my setup. 

[MarkS]

Thanks to all for your responses, and, again, happy holidays!

[MarkS]

Anybody know anything about this one??

 

 

[auricgoldfinger]

2 hours ago, MarkS said:

Anybody know anything about this one??

 

 

 

I've never seen that manufacturer, but if you're looking at that price point, you might want to review this post:

 

Mutec has not officially announced REF 10 SE model, but they have been sighted in the wild.  You might want to reach out to Mutec if you're interested.

[austinpop]

7 hours ago, MarkS said:

Anybody know anything about this one??

 

 

Mark,

 

One of the key metrics to look at is the published phase noise @1Hz offset at 10MHz. The lower this number, the higher the quality of the clock. This is a gross simplification, but as a first pass it’s a good metric.

 

The Ref 10 is -116 dBc/Hz. This clock seems to be -110. That’s quite a gulf in favor of the Mutec. 

[Tand]

On 12/22/2019 at 3:59 AM, MarkS said:

I have looked through this entire thread.  It is incredibly interesting.  Can someone with a dCS Vivaldi system please tell me if they think adding the Mutec REF 10 as the reference clock for the Vivaldi Master Clock was an upgrade?  If I get the Mutec, I would also "clock" my EtherRegen with the Mutec reference clock.  It might be worth a try.

 

Separately, I am using four 1.25M Nordost Valhalla 2 75ohm BNC cables to word clock my three box Vivaldi system (dac, clock, and upsampler).  I see a lot of back and forth about Habst cables and also about cable length.  I recall reading something about 1.25M having some magic to it for digital cables, but I could be wrong.  Where does one get these Habst cables and are they what people think are best for clock cables?  If I get the Mutec, I would need to clock cables (one to the dCS Clock and one to the EtherRegen).  I am particularly interested to hear from @austinpop regarding the Habst bnc clocking cables.  He has provided me with invaluable advice.

 

Happy holidays everyone!!

 

Hi Mark S

 

I am using a "half stack" - a Vivaldi dac and clock with a Mutec REF10 with Habst BNC.

 

First I was very happy when upgrading my Vivaldi dac with the Vivaldi clock. But it was when adding a REF10 it got really interesting. As I recall I thought the REF10 upgrade was much better than first adding the Vivaldi clock on its own. When Habst BNC cables where used compared to generic BNC it added a sense of focus, calmnes and better dynamics which connects me closer to the music.

 

Next step for me in january will be to upgrade my REF10 to REF10 SE-120 with -120 dBc/Hz😃.

 

Happy holidays!

 

[justubes]

On 12/22/2019 at 12:18 PM, auricgoldfinger said:

 

Here is the link to the Habst clock cables:  http://habst.de/digital-xlr-rca-bnc.html  You can email the proprietor, Daniel, through the web contact form for more information.

 

As you have read on this thread and possibly elsewhere, clock cables affect the performance and sound quality of the master clock.  The Habst cable is an excellent choice, but there are other options as well.  I can personally vouch for the Habst cables as I use them in my system.

 

People have generally found the shortest possible length is preferable for clock cables.  A major advantage of the Habst cable is that it can be grounded to an unused BNC output on the REF 10, which significantly improves sound quality.  I ground mine to a Synergistic Research Active Ground Block for even better results.  You could probably do the same with your Entreq. 

 

 

How do you ground the Ref10?

 

Have you tried chassis ground, from what i hve checked, the grounds of each output of the Ref10 checks to be isolated from my tests with a meter.

[LowMidHigh]

1 hour ago, Tand said:

 

Hi Mark S

 

I am using a "half stack" - a Vivaldi dac and clock with a Mutec REF10 with Habst BNC.

 

First I was very happy when upgrading my Vivaldi dac with the Vivaldi clock. But it was when adding a REF10 it got really interesting. As I recall I thought the REF10 upgrade was much better than first adding the Vivaldi clock on its own. When Habst BNC cables where used compared to generic BNC it added a sense of focus, calmnes and better dynamics which connects me closer to the music.

 

Next step for me in january will be to upgrade my REF10 to REF10 SE-120 with -120 dBc/Hz😃.

 

Happy holidays!

 

 

Does Mutech offer an upgrade path?

 

BTW, it wasn't too long ago that both Mutech and Cybershaft swore anything over -115/16 was inaudible.

And now with have this...:) 

[Arpiben]

5 hours ago, austinpop said:

Mark,

 

One of the key metrics to look at is the published phase noise @1Hz offset at 10MHz. The lower this number, the higher the quality of the clock. This is a gross simplification, but as a first pass it’s a good metric.

 

The Ref 10 is -116 dBc/Hz. This clock seems to be -110. That’s quite a gulf in favor of the Mutec. 

 

You are right and Mutec do provide measurements at output ports, quite rare to be mentioned.

But one should keep in mind that the slaved oscillator inside DAC has its own noise characteristics...😉

[mansr]

42 minutes ago, Arpiben said:

You are right and Mutec do provide measurements at output ports, quite rare to be mentioned.

But one should keep in mind that the slaved oscillator inside DAC has its own noise characteristics...😉

Right, and due to the (lack of) relationship between the 10 MHz input and 24.576 or whatever DAC clock, some kind of frequency synthesis has to be used. The phase noise will most likely be dominated by this.

[auricgoldfinger]

6 hours ago, justubes said:

How do you ground the Ref10?

 

Have you tried chassis ground, from what i hve checked, the grounds of each output of the Ref10 checks to be isolated from my tests with a meter.

 

It's not a chassis ground.  Daniel has always been reluctant to provide details about his cable construction, but I believe the secondary, shorter cable is used to ground the shielding of the primary (signal) cable.  Attaching the secondary cable to an unused BNC output or external grounding device enables the ground, thereby lowering the noise floor.  The perceived result is more detail and better spatial cues.

 

[Arpiben]

@austinpop

Please note that I am not arguing about Mutec good performances. But for several reasons, like the ones mentioned by @mansr, we should rather compare phase noise at DAC's output where it may matter. 

The advice is coming from somebody used to deal with phase noise and synchronization in Telecom industry. Feel free to delete.

[justubes]

39 minutes ago, auricgoldfinger said:

 

It's not a chassis ground.  Daniel has always been reluctant to provide details about his cable construction, but I believe the secondary, shorter cable is used to ground the shielding of the primary (signal) cable.  Attaching the secondary cable to an unused BNC output or external grounding device enables the ground, thereby lowering the noise floor.  The perceived result is more detail and better spatial cues.

 

What i meant is that using another unused bnc is not griunded directly with the next bnc output which the cable is connected to.

 

Each bnc is isolated from each other.

 

So meanimg not a true or best ground...

[justubes]

23 minutes ago, Arpiben said:

@austinpop

Please note that I am not arguing about Mutec good performances. But for several reasons, like the ones mentioned by @mansr, we should rather compare phase noise at DAC's output where it may matter. 

The advice is coming from somebody used to deal with phase noise and synchronization in Telecom industry. Feel free to delete.

Agree, but it is next to impossible to test it that way with the many different dacs.

 

But in any case take it that any improvement in the phase noise of an external reference  will result in the same improvement at the dac.

 

What happens after the output of the reference master clock will require your own testing to determine if it was worthwhile.

 

There will always certainly have losses.

 

Maybe better PLL, FPGA etc that will be available in the future that has negligible losses