Jump to content

Recommended Posts

On 2017-5-22 at 7:20 PM, julian.david said:

Send me a PM or email with your contact details so we can continue that conversation. 

 

Thanks,

Julian

Julian,

 

Have you received my message?  Thanks.

 

John

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm thinking of using this in conjunction with a mutec, then using mutec wck out to my rednet 3. Does that sound like a good idea, or should I only use this with the mutec?

 

Still not sure what are the differences of wck in (on rednet) vs what the mutec has. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 minutes ago, sadekkhalifa said:

@julian.david when it will be available for orders?

And I would like to know if Ref10 able to connect to sMS-200Ultra with master clock that has 6-9v connector 

Yes, I would also be very interested in this.  It might be useful if we had some kind of summary as to the basic uses, benefits and compatibility of the REF10.

 

From my perspective, I am a huge advocate of the Mutec MC3+USB.  The Mutec is by far the best 900 Euro's I have spent on audio kit in a long time.  Then we get the the 'add on' REF 10.  Now, the idea of adding something to the Mutec that improves performance is highly compelling, that is until you realise that the 'add on' is over three times the cost of the original MC3+USB.  So a struggle a bit psychologically with this.  OK, high quality clocks are expensive, I get this.  It is just that somehow I feel that if I'm buying a 3600 Euro product I need to do more with it than connect to a 1000 Euro reclocker.  Maybe the MC3+ REF 10 would provide excellent results well worth the extra cash, I do not know, but it is in part a psychological consideration.  Somehow for me if I was connecting say a £3K clock to a £3K dCS Network Bridge, this would seem reasonable, but a £3K clock to a £900 USB to AES/EBU converter I do struggle with!  (Although as posted earlier, it would appear that the REF 10 is not compatible with dCS products, which is a shame)

 

On other threads there have been reports of folks getting good results using the SOtM clock board to run Ethernet switches, endpoints, USB regen type products.  Is there any potential to use the REF 10 in a similar way?

 

For me, I could well imagine a set up with the REF 10 connected to my Ethernet switch, a sMS-200Ultra and the Mutec.  Is this sensible from a sound quality / performance perspective, would it even work?

 

It is perhaps worth mentioning that I bought the Mutec MC3+USB as a 'bit of a punt', mindful that I could order with a 30 day return policy.  However, when you get to the £3K + price point, 'taking a punt' seams a little reckless!   So I guess another question is will the REF 10 be available for demo in the UK, or will it be available similar to the MC3+USB, purchase with a 30 day return policy?  (maybe we need a couple roving demo unit we can pass around the UK or Europe, and one for US and elsewhere^_^)

Windows 10 PC, Roon, HQPlayer, SOtM sMS-200Ultra, tX-USBultra, Paul Hynes SR4 (x2), Mutec REF10, Mutec MC3+USB, Devialet 1000Pro, KEF Blade.  Plus Pro-Ject Signature 12 TT for playing my 'legacy' vinyl collection.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, sadekkhalifa said:

@julian.david when it will be available for orders?

And I would like to know if Ref10 able to connect to sMS-200Ultra with master clock that has 6-9v connector 

Another thought here.  If the sMS-200Ultra is simply a sMS-200 with a better clock, then I would have thought a sMS-200 (not Ultra) with the external clock mod would be all you need?

Windows 10 PC, Roon, HQPlayer, SOtM sMS-200Ultra, tX-USBultra, Paul Hynes SR4 (x2), Mutec REF10, Mutec MC3+USB, Devialet 1000Pro, KEF Blade.  Plus Pro-Ject Signature 12 TT for playing my 'legacy' vinyl collection.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 06/06/2017 at 10:07 AM, sadekkhalifa said:

@julian.david when it will be available for orders?

And I would like to know if Ref10 able to connect to sMS-200Ultra with master clock that has 6-9v connector 

We are taking pre-orders already and it will be shipping very soon. Contact the MUTEC HQ directly or one of our distributors please.

 

As some other folks mentioned, the REF 10 will work great with the SOtM sMS-200Ultra if you have the additional sCLK-EX board that gives you the 10 MHz compatible input. We're actually great fans of the folks at SOtM and had dinner with them in Munich. There will most likely be a few devices to play with at MUTEC soon so we can provide full support for compatibility related questions.

MUTEC GmbH

Marketing Associate

Email [email protected]

Web www.mutec-net.com

Link to comment
Share on other sites

23 hours ago, Confused said:

Another thought here.  If the sMS-200Ultra is simply a sMS-200 with a better clock, then I would have thought a sMS-200 (not Ultra) with the external clock mod would be all you need?

 

The short answer is, it's complicated. 

 

Clocks have to be placed as close to the DAC as possible. This is because the jitter performance suffers the more interfaces get in the way. If you had clocks with equal performance, the clock placed next to the DAC will perform better than the same clock placed externally. 

 

Furthermore, the performance of the external clock depends on the type of PLL (phase lock loop) in your DAC. 

 

Using an external clock may or may not increase the performance of your DAC. It comes down to the performance of the external clock, the performance of the clock in your DAC, the design of the PLL, the number of interfaces the external clock has to traverse, and even the quality of the cable connecting the external clock to your DAC*. 

 

(* this is something that even objectivists won't disagree with! It needs to be 75 Ohm impedance, and both clock output and DAC clock input need to be designed within spec, otherwise jitter performance suffers) 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, julian.david said:

We are taking pre-orders already and it will be shipping very soon. Contact the MUTEC HQ directly or one of our distributors please.

 

As some other folks mentioned, the REF 10 will work great with the SOtM sMS-200Ultra if you have the additional sCLK-EX board that gives you the 10 MHz compatible input. We're actually great fans of the folks at SOtM and had dinner with them in Munich. There will most likely be a few devices to play with at MUTEC soon so we can provide full support for compatibility related questions.

My understanding is that the sMS-200Ultra is essentially a sMS-200 with a sCLK-EX clock board included internally?  So are you suggesting that an additional (external) sCLK-EX board is required to get the 10 MHz compatible input?

Windows 10 PC, Roon, HQPlayer, SOtM sMS-200Ultra, tX-USBultra, Paul Hynes SR4 (x2), Mutec REF10, Mutec MC3+USB, Devialet 1000Pro, KEF Blade.  Plus Pro-Ject Signature 12 TT for playing my 'legacy' vinyl collection.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, Confused said:

My understanding is that the sMS-200Ultra is essentially a sMS-200 with a sCLK-EX clock board included internally?  So are you suggesting that an additional (external) sCLK-EX board is required to get the 10 MHz compatible input?

No, you're right of course. The ultra version already included the clock version. My bad! No need for any additional boards to get the 10 MHz input.

MUTEC GmbH

Marketing Associate

Email [email protected]

Web www.mutec-net.com

Link to comment
Share on other sites

49 minutes ago, Keith_W said:

 

The short answer is, it's complicated. 

 

Clocks have to be placed as close to the DAC as possible. This is because the jitter performance suffers the more interfaces get in the way. If you had clocks with equal performance, the clock placed next to the DAC will perform better than the same clock placed externally. 

 

Furthermore, the performance of the external clock depends on the type of PLL (phase lock loop) in your DAC. 

 

Using an external clock may or may not increase the performance of your DAC. It comes down to the performance of the external clock, the performance of the clock in your DAC, the design of the PLL, the number of interfaces the external clock has to traverse, and even the quality of the cable connecting the external clock to your DAC*. 

 

(* this is something that even objectivists won't disagree with! It needs to be 75 Ohm impedance, and both clock output and DAC clock input need to be designed within spec, otherwise jitter performance suffers) 

I my case I would not be considering connecting an external clock to the DAC (I have a Devialet amp/DAC, with zero provision for an external clock)

 

This remains an interesting point you make though.  To make sure I understand this correctly, if you had a system with say a REF 10 clock, feeding both an sMS-200Ultra 'end point' as well as a Mutec MC3+USB, to optimise you would need to make sure all cabling and connections are per the 75 Ohm spec, plus it would be important to keep these cables as short as is practically possible, in particular to the Mutec MC3+USB?  (which in my case would be the 'last clock before the DAC').

Windows 10 PC, Roon, HQPlayer, SOtM sMS-200Ultra, tX-USBultra, Paul Hynes SR4 (x2), Mutec REF10, Mutec MC3+USB, Devialet 1000Pro, KEF Blade.  Plus Pro-Ject Signature 12 TT for playing my 'legacy' vinyl collection.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

What I am saying is that the clock signal generator has to be as close to the DAC chip as possible. This is why the clock which is built into your DAC has an inherent advantage over any external clock. For an external clock to offer superior performance depends on the combination of factors that I listed. 

 

Note that I am careful to say that the external clock will or won't offer a performance advantage. It might, but it is not possible to make a blanket statement. Unless you happen to be John Swenson and have access to equipment that can measure this amount of jitter, you will not be able to tell the difference an external clock makes (either positive or negative), short of using your ears and deciding if it sounds better or not. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

38 minutes ago, austinpop said:

 

Julian, I'm still trying to understand the world of master clocks. In the scenario of the Ref 10 providing the reference to the SOtM Ultra boxes, how short does the 50ohm (BNC to SMB) cable between the Ref 10 and the Ultra (sMS-200ultra/tX-USBultra) need to be?

 

Everything I'm reading about master clocks cautions that even if you start out with a world-class master clock, the effect of the cable length usually renders that advantage moot.

 

Obviously, the proof will be in the pudding (listening), but can you comment on this critical dependency on cable length, and whether it can be mitigated?

Where have you seen this? I'd be surprised if there's an actual logical reason for this.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

39 minutes ago, jelt2359 said:

Where have you seen this? I'd be surprised if there's an actual logical reason for this.

 

Just look at the posts up this page alone. There is a prevailing view out there about this. Maybe it matters more for "word" clocks rather than "master" clocks. I don't know.

 

That's why I'd like the experts at Mutec to weigh in. 

 

Does master clock cable length matter? Does it need to be super short - like 0.2m - for the master clock to provide any benefit at all over a good built-in reference clock like the one in the SOtM sCLK-EX board?

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

A question about the MC3+USB:

 

Does the MC3+USB incorporate the latest generation of USB boards and if not do you have plans to incorporate these in the future? Also, will current units be upgradeable?

 

Thanks

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On ‎07‎/‎06‎/‎2017 at 4:56 PM, austinpop said:

 

Julian, I'm still trying to understand the world of master clocks. In the scenario of the Ref 10 providing the reference to the SOtM Ultra boxes, how short does the 50ohm (BNC to SMB) cable between the Ref 10 and the Ultra (sMS-200ultra/tX-USBultra) need to be?

 

Everything I'm reading about master clocks cautions that even if you start out with a world-class master clock, the effect of the cable length usually renders that advantage moot.

 

Obviously, the proof will be in the pudding (listening), but can you comment on this critical dependency on cable length, and whether it can be mitigated?

Yes, I too am interested in some clarity here.  To be honest, I am reading stuff on other threads in this forum where folk have achieved excellent results adding various clocks in the chain before the DAC.  (see the 'front end' known as 'the full Romaz'):)

 

Then we have other posts providing a note of warning with respect to master clocks and some indication clock implementation may actually be detrimental to performance.

 

Away from the purely theoretical discussions, I could easily imagine myself buying a sMS-200Ultra to feed the Mutec MC3+USB I already own.  This alone should be a reasonable 'front end'.  Then I would have the possibility to add the REF 10 to act as clock for both the sMS-200Ultra and the Mutec MC3+USB.   The question is, would better results be achieved simply using the REF 10 to clock the MC3+USB alone, and avoiding using the Ref 10 to run the sMS-200Ultra as this would be counterproductive?

Windows 10 PC, Roon, HQPlayer, SOtM sMS-200Ultra, tX-USBultra, Paul Hynes SR4 (x2), Mutec REF10, Mutec MC3+USB, Devialet 1000Pro, KEF Blade.  Plus Pro-Ject Signature 12 TT for playing my 'legacy' vinyl collection.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, Confused said:

Away from the purely theoretical discussions, I could easily imagine myself buying a sMS-200Ultra to feed the Mutec MC3+USB I already own.  This alone should be a reasonable 'front end'.  Then I would have the possibility to add the REF 10 to act as clock for both the sMS-200Ultra and the Mutec MC3+USB.   The question is, would better results be achieved simply using the REF 10 to clock the MC3+USB alone, and avoiding using the Ref 10 to run the sMS-200Ultra as this would be counterproductive?

 

This is the setup I have been thinking on. I am also very interested to see how this set up would sound.

"Its the REF clock that makes it all so good..."

Link to comment
Share on other sites

19 minutes ago, Kritpoon said:

 

This is the setup I have been thinking on. I am also very interested to see how this set up would sound.

Well it seems many people are interested in this setup. I am another one. I have been recently to the Monaco Hi End and I have been impressed by the Sforzato Master clock (14.000 €) attached to the sforzato server and Dac that was confronted with another Dac (metrum adagio with no master clock). According to the Dutch distributor the master clock made the difference in performance ( the adagio is said to be an outstanding Dac)

And what was that difference? Well, the master clock made the sound so much clear and clean, obvious. 

 

So now I am looking to some kind of clock to include in my setup. I have the SMS-200 and I was thinking to upgrade to Ultra. The ref10 also seems to have a reasonable price. 

 

Who is going to pull the trigger first? 

If it is good everyone will follow...

 

 

« Information is not knowledge / Knowledge is not wisdom / Wisdom is not truth / Truth is not beauty / Beauty is not love / Love is not music / MUSIC IS THE BEST. » FZ

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, pam1975 said:

I will go for ref 10 on a SMS 200 ultra and my current Mutec MC3+ USB. 

i have the ref 10 on pre-order already, waiting for news from Mutec.

I will share impressions here although I won't be able to measure anything ;) 

 

Envious!

 

Do look into the cable length question - i.e. from the Ref 10's output to the sMS-200ultra's and MC3+ USB's input.

 

Maybe master clocks are different, but I just learned from May at SOtM that in their internal listening tests, they found that SQ deteriorated between using SMB clock cables of 0.3m vs 1m. Again - this is in the context of distributing (word?) clocks of 24MHz and 225MHz from the sCLK-EX in the Ultra box to the other boxes in the chain.

 

I'm hoping Mutec will clarify for the master clock @ 10MHz.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
 Share



×
×
  • Create New...