Mutec REF 10 Masterclock

[Confused]

Picking up on @JohnSwenson 's recommendation above, I have recently ordered some custom cables from Pasternack.  (BNC RG216, similar to those purchased by @SwissBear earlier in this thread)  These were ordered 6th Feb, I received UPS tracking notification that they have arrived in the UK today (7th Feb) and that they will be delivered on 8th Feb.  How fast is that!

 

One point to note for UK buyers.  SpecTech Limited is an Official UK & Ireland Representative for Pasternack.  Anything on the Pasternack website should be available via SpecTech in the UK, which I believe works out cheaper than buying direct from the US.

 

http://www.spectechlimited.org.uk/

 

Oh, and in case you are wondering why I am buying RG216 cables, I have a Mutec REF10 on order.  It should be arriving next week.  I shall update further once it is up and running in my system.  I hope it's as good as you guys say it is!

[zoltan]

1 hour ago, Confused said:

Oh, and in case you are wondering why I am buying RG216 cables, I have a Mutec REF10 on order.  It should be arriving next week.  I shall update further once it is up and running in my system.  I hope it's as good as you guys say it is!

1

Yes, it is.  

I saw your post on the Devialet forum the other day (I run by username: 'zdenes' there) when you compared the Mutec MC3+USB route to the CI board and preferred the former. The Ref 10 brought my system it to a level that I believe it is probably the best money I've ever spent on a piece of audio gear, and that covers a lot of stuff including the Devialet D800, lots of Accuphase and countless other expensive gear. To be honest, the Ref 10 brings such realism to the system that I wonder how it would sound with a DAC that can also receive the master clock signal. Unfortunately, not possible with the Devialet, as the DAC cannot be bypassed. 

 

Nevertheless, it would be interesting hear somebody's opinion who has connected the Ref 10 to a DAC. I don't think I've read such a review by anyone here or anywhere else.  

[Confused]

Well, my Pasternack cables have arrived safely.  I still cannot believe that custom-made cables that I ordered from the USA whilst eating a lunchtime sandwich in the UK actually arrived at my home Thursday lunchtime, basically 48 hours to my door after clicking the order button.  These are RG216 cables, so the exact spec that Mutec recommends in the REF10 manual.  I guess that I consider these as my cables to 'get me going'.  Depending on how things develop, I may well try some of the other cable suggestions made in this thread, I am certainly intrigued by the suggestion of using 12G cables.  In the meantime, I have both 12" and 24" cables, so I plan to try each of these between the REF10 and MC3+USB.  If I can pick up an audible improvement from using the shorter cable then this will be all the inspiration I need to pursue this further.  For those that are interested, this is what they look like.  A bit dull to be honest!  If they don't sound dull, then that's not a problem.

 

[zoltan]

@ConfusedWhen is your Ref 10 arriving? I would really like to hear your listening test result on the different lengths. They look very stiff but I guess that is a must to meet the specs. BTW are specs available for these cables? I could not find them on Pasternack's site. It would be interesting to compare to the 12G cables but they are only available in 1m lengths. 
Anyway, IME the Ref 10 really sound different when warm, you need to give it a good 30 mins after switching on. The manual doesn't recommend short interval power cycles but luckily you can just disable the clock output you are using when swapping the cables for the test. 

[Confused]

57 minutes ago, zoltan said:

@ConfusedsWhen is your Ref 10 arriving? I would really like to hear your listening test result on the different lengths. They look very stiff but I guess that is a must to meet the specs. BTW are specs available for these cables? I could not find them on Pasternack's site. It would be interesting to compare to the 12G cables but they are only available in 1m lengths. 
Anyway, IME the Ref 10 really sound different when warm, you need to give it a good 30 mins after switching on. The manual doesn't recommend short interval power cycles but luckily you can just disable the clock output you are using when swapping the cables for the test. 

 

 

I am not sure when it will arrive to be honest, when I placed the order it was listed as '2 to 5 days' lead time, but I see it is now listed as 'Due back in stock 21/02/2018'.  So it might be next week, or it might be delayed to late Feb, not too long either way.

 

The 12" cable was a bit of a punt, I was not sure that it would connect satisfactorily between the REF10 and MC3+USB.  Having seen it, I actually think it will be fine, it is more flexible than it looks.  I currently have it suitably jammed in a gap in my record shelf, progressively & gently coaxing it into a 180° curve.

 

Links to specs:

 

https://www.pasternack.com/flexible-0.425-rg216-75-ohm-coax-cable-pvc-jacket-rg216-u-p.aspx

 

https://www.pasternack.com/images/ProductPDF/RG216-U.pdf

 

 

Also, I have ordered some SOtM kit to replace my microRendu, as follows:

 

SOtM sMS-200Ultra with Clock mod
SOtM tX-USBultra with Clock mod
SOtM sPS-500
SOtM modified Ethernet Switch

 

The above should be with me at the end of February / early March.  So fun times approaching.

[mourip]

33 minutes ago, Confused said:

Links to specs:

 

https://www.pasternack.com/flexible-0.425-rg216-75-ohm-coax-cable-pvc-jacket-rg216-u-p.aspx

 

https://www.pasternack.com/images/ProductPDF/RG216-U.pdf

 

 

 

That site is a bit complex. How do you go about ordering this cable at a specific length and terminated with BNC?

 

Is it here?

 

I ordered a second Canare 12G-SDI 4K UHD Single-Channel BNC Cable from BHPhoto as I like it so much. It looks similar to yours in size and it is also very stiff. I am open to trying the Pasternack cable also.

[Confused]

1 hour ago, mourip said:

 

That site is a bit complex. How do you go about ordering this cable at a specific length and terminated with BNC?

 

Is it here?

 

I ordered a second Canare 12G-SDI 4K UHD Single-Channel BNC Cable from BHPhoto as I like it so much. It looks similar to yours in size and it is also very stiff. I am open to trying the Pasternack cable also.

 

Confirmed, the link you have posted is to the exact cable I purchased.  (albeit that you can select 12", 24" and so on)

[mourip]

1 minute ago, Confused said:

Confirmed, the link you have posted is to the exact cable I purchased.  (albeit that you can select 12", 24" and so on)

 

Thanks Confused. I am no longer confused :-)

[octaviars]

On 2018-02-10 at 1:42 PM, Confused said:

Also, I have ordered some SOtM kit to replace my microRendu, as follows:

 

SOtM sMS-200Ultra with Clock mod
SOtM tX-USBultra with Clock mod
SOtM sPS-500
SOtM modified Ethernet Switch

 

The above should be with me at the end of February / early March.  So fun times approaching.

 

What Switch is it that SOtM is modifying for you @Confused

 

I run a SMS ultra with a soon to get Paul Hynes SR4 but have an offer for a used tX-USBultra so thought about building out my system with more stuff and a external masterclock. Thoughts about trying AES over USB on my DAC have also come in mind so Mutec REF10 and MC3+USB is intresting.

[Confused]

5 hours ago, octaviars said:

 

What Switch is it that SOtM is modifying for you @Confused

 

I run a SMS ultra with a soon to get Paul Hynes SR4 but have an offer for a used tX-USBultra so thought about building out my system with more stuff and a external masterclock. Thoughts about trying AES over USB on my DAC have also come in mind so Mutec REF10 and MC3+USB is intresting.

If I am completely honest, I’m not 100% sure, I’ll confirm details when it turns up!  I think SOtM usually supply a D-Link DGS-105, so that’s what I’m expecting.

 

For me, the switch is a complete punt, I can’t fathom why it should make any difference.  indeed, I did try the Aqvox switch a while ago and in my system I could not detect any improvement, so I sent it back.  I do note that others have reported good results with the SOtM switch, so I was happy to pay the relatively small amount of extra cash just because I am intrigued enough to want to try it for myself.  Slightly crazy I would admit.

[auricgoldfinger]

1 hour ago, Confused said:

If I am completely honest, I’m not 100% sure, I’ll confirm details when it turns up!  I think SOtM usually supply a D-Link DGS-105, so that’s what I’m expecting.

 

For me, the switch is a complete punt, I can’t fathom why it should make any difference.  indeed, I did try the Aqvox switch a while ago and in my system I could not detect any improvement, so I sent it back.  I do note that others have reported good results with the SOtM switch, so I was happy to pay the relatively small amount of extra cash just because I am intrigued enough to want to try it for myself.  Slightly crazy I would admit.

 

Will you be re-clocking your switch with one of your SOtM sCLK endpoints?  That is the key.

[octaviars]

8 hours ago, Confused said:

If I am completely honest, I’m not 100% sure, I’ll confirm details when it turns up!  I think SOtM usually supply a D-Link DGS-105, so that’s what I’m expecting.

 

 

Yes I think you are right about the D-Link. 

I use a Netgear GS108 with grounded -0V as that is one of the switches John Swenson recommended.

I think SOtM can modify any switch if you ship it to them. 

Looking forward to hear what you think about the SOtM products togheter with the Mutecs.

A question regarding the masterclock are you going to use both 75ohm and 50ohm? Mutec MC3 is 75ohm but are SOtM not only 50ohm? I know Mutec REF10 has both 50 and 75ohm outputs so no problem there I suppose? 

[Confused]

19 hours ago, auricgoldfinger said:

 

Will you be re-clocking your switch with one of your SOtM sCLK endpoints?  That is the key.

Yes, this is indeed the plan.  In fact, I will effectively end up with a Mutec REF10 referenced clocked switch as the REF10 will be feeding the sCLK.  Why should this help SQ?  I have no explanation, but many report it does.  It should be fun trying if nothing else!

[Confused]

12 hours ago, octaviars said:

A question regarding the masterclock are you going to use both 75ohm and 50ohm? Mutec MC3 is 75ohm but are SOtM not only 50ohm? I know Mutec REF10 has both 50 and 75ohm outputs so no problem there I suppose? 

I have specified both the sMS-200Ultra and the tXUSBultra with 75ohm clock connections.  (50ohm or 75ohm can be selected as an option)  The REF10 has six 75ohm outputs, so this should work fine.  I wanted everything consistent with the MC3+USB's 75ohm input, this will allow the clock cables to be interchangeable, this could be useful when trying different cables and with attempts to keep clock cables lengths to a minimum.

[octaviars]

Just now, Confused said:

I have specified both the sMS-200Ultra and the tXUSBultra with 75ohm clock connections.  (50ohm or 75ohm can be selected as an option) 

 

A good to know that, I have only seen them with 50ohm.

 

Does the REF10 dont have 6 outputs with 75ohm and 2 with 50ohm?

 

 

 

 

[Confused]

7 minutes ago, octaviars said:

 

A good to know that, I have only seen them with 50ohm.

 

Does the REF10 dont have 6 outputs with 75ohm and 2 with 50ohm?

 

Yes, thanks for the correction it is indeed 6 connections at 75ohm and 2 connections at 50ohm.  You were so fast pointing out my error that I had time to edit my post above, I have given you credit though!  I guess that because I only need three connections I had not worried too much about this point, but it is always good to get the facts right.

[afrancois]

I found a superb explanation on youtube about clock signals, ringing, jitter, interference and signal integrity using a scope.

Helps you to understand why clock precision, clean power, and EMI/RFI are so important.

 

Recently, I got myself some gear to start learning something about electronics. I have a degree in computer science but deep down I always wanted to understand how things actually work. I still got a long way to go, however.

 

 

[sam1000]

Did anyone have a chance to compare Blue Jeans 12G cable to Pasternack?

https://www.bluejeanscable.com/pages/technicaldocs/4794R.pdf

 

I got my Ref-10 this week, but my cable had not arrived yet. So I bought a couple of 75ohm BNC/RCA connectors from Frys electronics and connected it with my digital cable. The sound improved, but it wasn't really night and day. Then I received the 12G cable from Blue Jeans which did not have any noticeable improvement over my stop gap solution. Hence my question. Is it necessary to have Patsernack cable to bring out the more out of ref-10? 

[R1200CL]

20 minutes ago, sam1000 said:

Is it necessary to have Patsernack cable to bring out the more out of ref-10? 

 

Maybe have a look at Ghentaudio and see if he has a feasible cable. If not he make one ?

 

[zoltan]

A thread was started on clock cables already, you'd be better off asking it there. 

 

[mourip]

13 hours ago, sam1000 said:

Did anyone have a chance to compare Blue Jeans 12G cable to Pasternack?

https://www.bluejeanscable.com/pages/technicaldocs/4794R.pdf

 

I got my Ref-10 this week, but my cable had not arrived yet. So I bought a couple of 75ohm BNC/RCA connectors from Frys electronics and connected it with my digital cable. The sound improved, but it wasn't really night and day. Then I received the 12G cable from Blue Jeans which did not have any noticeable improvement over my stop gap solution. Hence my question. Is it necessary to have Patsernack cable to bring out the more out of ref-10? 

 

I have tried several 75ohm cables, mostly Pro Audio, that includes the 75ohm UHD video cable mentioned a number of posts back. In my system none seemed significantly better/different than the others. I am using two cables: one to go to from my Ref10 to a Mutec 3+ USB as external reference and the second from the M3USB as external wordclock out to my Focusrite Rednet D16. 

 

If I reboot my server then the Rednet D16 always defaults back to internal wclk. I often forget to change it back. Usually within a very short period of time I become restless while listening to music, feeling as if something is missing or has changed. I then get a "duh" moment and remember that I need to change the Rednet setting to ext wclk. Once done then the music gets the magic back.

 

My purpose in saying this is that the REF10 contribution is subtle but absolutely worthwhile. However for me, in my system, the 75ohm cables have not made much of a difference.

 

YMMV :-)

[pam1975]

@Confused did you consider at the time buying the sCLK-OCX10 clock from sotm vs the Ref10?

 

are you happy with the performance of your Ref 10?

I'm hesitant between the 2 clocks for my Mutec MC3+ USB which clocks my dCS network bridge.

Thanks

[sam1000]

On 4/20/2018 at 5:53 AM, mourip said:

 

I have tried several 75ohm cables, mostly Pro Audio, that includes the 75ohm UHD video cable mentioned a number of posts back. In my system none seemed significantly better/different than the others. I am using two cables: one to go to from my Ref10 to a Mutec 3+ USB as external reference and the second from the M3USB as external wordclock out to my Focusrite Rednet D16. 

 

If I reboot my server then the Rednet D16 always defaults back to internal wclk. I often forget to change it back. Usually within a very short period of time I become restless while listening to music, feeling as if something is missing or has changed. I then get a "duh" moment and remember that I need to change the Rednet setting to ext wclk. Once done then the music gets the magic back.

 

My purpose in saying this is that the REF10 contribution is subtle but absolutely worthwhile. However for me, in my system, the 75ohm cables have not made much of a difference.

 

YMMV :-)

Thanks for your input everyone. I'll keep using the BJ cable for now. So far, I have been using 2 sources.  

1. For music in the background, I use spotify on google music(optical out).

2. Oppo 203 (Coax).  

Ref-10 tremendously improves the output for the first source. With Oppo, there are subtle improvements like widening the soundstage, improved bass etc. 

At this time, I'm not inclined to buy SOTM trifecta due to multiple boxes. 

Has anyone tried Oppo Vanity board with Ref-10? 

The vanity board does it own re-clocking, so I'm not sure if ref-10 will improve upon that. But it will at least give me the ability to play my DSD files.

[Confused]

On ‎20‎/‎04‎/‎2018 at 3:35 PM, pam1975 said:

@Confused did you consider at the time buying the sCLK-OCX10 clock from sotm vs the Ref10?

 

are you happy with the performance of your Ref 10?

I'm hesitant between the 2 clocks for my Mutec MC3+ USB which clocks my dCS network bridge.

Thanks

3

3

I had been thinking about getting the REF10 for a while, but the sCLK-OCX10 had been announced before I ordered the REF10, so yes, I did consider it.  At that time there were no comparative reviews of the two items, so all I had was the many positive reviews and reports for the REF10, and the published specifications for the sCLK-OCX10.  When reviewing the specifications of the two, I could see that they were both very good, with the sCLK-OCX10 having maybe fractionally better specs in some areas, but the biggest differentiator was that the REF10 was square wave and the sCLK-OCX10 sine wave.  Which of these is best seams to depend on who you ask!  In my case, the primary reason to buy a reference clock was for the Mutec MC3+USB, the last clock before the DAC if you like, so it made sense to buy the product designed to feed the MC3+USB.  One other point I would make here is that I bought the SOtM bundle and the Mutec REF10 at the same time.  The REF10 is a little utilitarian, but it seems to have very good build quality, it looks like it will last forever.  The SOtM kit, by comparison, does seem a bit cheap and cheerful.  In a way, you could argue that this is a positive for the SOtM kit, in that you are paying for the electronics rather than fancy casework, but for something costing £3K, you would expect something reasonably decent.

 

The REF10 does have slightly better functionality also, with 4 off 75ohm outputs, 2 off 50 ohm outputs, which are all switchable, with a clear display to show which outputs are enabled.  The REF10 also includes it's own LPSU, so that is one less box to worry about.

 

I can also see my REF10 going together very nicely with whatever Mutec next bring out in their "Empyreal" class of products, but that remains to be seen.

 

I believe that a REF10 versus sCLK-OCX10 shootout has been planned, so maybe once that one is completed I will discover that I have made the wrong choice!  Meanwhile though, yes, I am very happy with the REF10.  I added it to the system and it just simply made everything sound better, more realistic, dynamic, just all good.  

[zoltan]

It seems that MUTEC will not exhibit any new product in Munich in two weeks. I think some of us expected something in the Empyreal class.