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I would be interested in hearing about which cable those who own a REF10 are using and if by chance you have compared it to others.

 

I am using a Pro Co 1.5' Premium Canare 75 ohm Word Clock Cable from Sweetwater. It was a "first pass" choice for a name brand pro cable that was reasonably priced but I would be interested in the experience of others.


"Don't Believe Everything You Think"

System

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50 minutes ago, mourip said:

I would be interested in hearing about which cable those who own a REF10 are using and if by chance you have compared it to others.

 

Clock cables could make or break the performance of a reference clock, an owner of dCS Vivaldi full stack also commented the importance of clock cables (Odin is the flagship from Nordost as shown in the picture linked below) and PSUs

 

http://www.hiendy.com/hififorum/forum.php?mod=viewthread&tid=84115&page=1#pid2189294

 

Roy also compared quite a few clock cables and the cheaper ones seemed to be quite lacking to say the least

 

https://www.computeraudiophile.com/forums/topic/30376-a-novel-way-to-massively-improve-the-sq-of-computer-audio-streaming/?page=147&tab=comments#comment-722848

Quote

As a further example of how important this is, I have been testing clock cables of various price points and length.  Using various inexpensive DigiKey clock cables from the same manufacturer of various lengths, as you go from 20 to 40 cm in cable length, the SQ degradation is clearly audible.  This is why I had to send my gear back to SOtM.  Because they didn't have the really short clock cables in stock, they ended up using much longer clock cables in my build which I ultimately deemed as unacceptable.  Moreover, as I have tested identical length clock cables with my REF10 from companies like Pasternack ($40), Blue Jeans Cables (<$20), and Black Cat ($250) against the 700 Euro Habst clock cables that I purchased with my REF10, unfortunately, the differences are quite significant with respect to HF harshness and a very flat sound.  Not that the cheap cables sound horrible but when you replace them with the Habst, there's simply no wanting to go back to those cheap cables.  This is where those external clock doubters have a leg to stand on when they make their claims that external clocks don't add anything.  Cable length and cable quality DEFINITELY matters.

 

http://www.habst.de/index.php/digital-xlr-rca-bnc.html

0,50m  889,-€
0,75m 1074,-€
1,00m 1259,-€
2,00m 1998,-€

 

https://www.facebook.com/mutecpro/posts/1307154836032310

https://www.facebook.com/mutecpro/posts/1308290512585409

https://www.facebook.com/habstcables/videos/852400844910641

 

No wonder MUTEC would choose Habst to showcase REF 10 in Munich since it's a no brainer IMHO.

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8 hours ago, One and a half said:

I would have thought a clock needs to go through a PLL and compare this to the incoming data, whether the clock is external or internal, the function is the same.

An external clock has the plus of its PSU removed from the DAC, so this bodes well for the REF10 :) 

A PLL is not necessary in every case.  For example if one has a DAC with local masterclock and an isolated asynchronous USB interface the clocking would look like this:

 

USB receiver-isolation-masterclock(s), re-clocking (flip-flop)-DAC.  With a synchronous clocking arrangement for the DAC (bit clock and masterclock are both produced from the same masterclcock reference) the bit clock and the masterclock are already synchronous, so no PLL is needed to line them up.  The same masterclock is used to create the data timing (it is sent back through the isolation to clock the data at the USB receiver) as is used to re-clock it before conversion.  This is the "best" way to get the lowest possible jitter at the input of the DAC, where it matters.

SO/ROON/HQPe: DSD 512-Sonore opticalModuleDeluxe-Signature Rendu optical with Well Tempered Clock--DIY DSC-2 DAC with SC Pure Clock--DIY Purifi Amplifier-Focus Audio FS888 speakers-JL E 112 sub-Nordost Tyr USB, DIY EventHorizon AC cables, Iconoclast XLR & speaker cables, Synergistic Purple Fuses, Spacetime system clarifiers.  ISOAcoustics Oreas footers.                                                       

                                                                                           SONORE computer audio

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4 hours ago, mourip said:

I would be interested in hearing about which cable those who own a REF10 are using and if by chance you have compared it to others.

 

I am using a Pro Co 1.5' Premium Canare 75 ohm Word Clock Cable from Sweetwater. It was a "first pass" choice for a name brand pro cable that was reasonably priced but I would be interested in the experience of others.

I use a 75 ohm cable from Oyaide which - if you look at the 'features' section - should qualify as an excellent cable. I have no idea how it would fare against the Habst though. 

http://www.oyaide.com/ENGLISH/AUDIO/products_category/digital_cable/pg532.html

I would like to try the Habst quite an investment, considering the Oyaide might just be as good. 

HQplayer - NAA - Devialet D-800 - YG Acoustics Carmel + dual ELAC sub-2090

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48 minutes ago, afrancois said:

Other possibilities of course remain:

- I'm using bad BNC cables (or not good enough cables)

 

I suspect this might be the issue. The Neotech cable you specified doesn't seem to be a 75ohm cable. I know that this is what it says on a French site that sells it but it is listed under interconnect cables on both Neotech's own site and on the US site too.

 

Neotech's naming is not that straightforward but I believe NEI stands for NEotech Interconnects and for digital cables they use NEVD (which is NEotech Video & Digital). Check out their homepage

 http://www.neotechcable.com/product3_2.php 

 

Earlier, I had NS-2000 speaker cables that were quite good but recently I tried a 5N pure silver digital 75 ohm interconnect from them 
https://www.ebay.ie/itm/Neotech-NEVD-2001-ND-021080-Interconect-Cable-1m-long-/263378194250?hash=item3d52904f4a 

and the results were disappointing. I wanted to use it as a clock cable just yourself and tested it as a digital interconnect first. My Oyaide D-510 was way better, so I quickly sold and used the Oyaide as clock cable material. 
 

HQplayer - NAA - Devialet D-800 - YG Acoustics Carmel + dual ELAC sub-2090

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21 minutes ago, zoltan said:

I suspect this might be the issue. The Neotech cable you specified doesn't seem to be a 75ohm cable. I know that this is what it says on a French site that sells it but it is listed under interconnect cables on both Neotech's own site and on the US site too.

 

Neotech's naming is not that straightforward but I believe NEI stands for NEotech Interconnects and for digital cables they use NEVD (which is NEotech Video & Digital). Check out their homepage

 http://www.neotechcable.com/product3_2.php 

 

Earlier, I had NS-2000 speaker cables that were quite good but recently I tried a 5N pure silver digital 75 ohm interconnect from them 
https://www.ebay.ie/itm/Neotech-NEVD-2001-ND-021080-Interconect-Cable-1m-long-/263378194250?hash=item3d52904f4a 

and the results were disappointing. I wanted to use it as a clock cable just yourself and tested it as a digital interconnect first. My Oyaide D-510 was way better, so I quickly sold and used the Oyaide as clock cable material. 
 

Hmm, the cable I use isn't a digital cable you think? What is actually the difference between an analog and digital 75ohm cable?

I always thought that digital cables were 110ohm.

 

Btw, I also have a 75ohm BNC clock cable from Canare. The same result as my home built cables.

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Thanks for the cable referrals. I might look up the Oyaide as the Habst is pretty expensive.

1 hour ago, afrancois said:

...'m wondering if those that experience clear differences, have upgraded the MC3+ USB with an LPS-1?

What I mean is, that I suspect that the upgrade to the LPS-1 renders the internal clock that good, that perhaps an external clock doesn't make any difference anymore.

 

Other possibilities of course remain:

- I'm using bad BNC cables (or not good enough cables)

- My femto clock upgraded Lyngdorf DPA-1 doesn't let me hear the potential of the REF10

 

 

I did upgrade my M3USB with an LPS and also added an internal regulator board.

 

Perhaps try another 75ohm cable just in case DIY digital cables are more of a challenge than analog ones. I make my own analog cables but think that digital ones might be more tricky.

 

Are you sure that you have the REF10 front channel selected to the correct jack in back? The front panel number is reversed  from the rear jacks if just looking from the front. I thought that mine was broken until I figured it out. Also two of the jacks are 50 ohm. Just checking. The M3USB will default to internal clock if it does not see a signal on ext even though you have set it for ext.

 

Do you have the M3USB set to re-clock?

 

 


"Don't Believe Everything You Think"

System

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1 minute ago, afrancois said:

Hmm, the cable I use isn't a digital cable you think? What is actually the difference between an analog and digital 75ohm cable?

I always thought that digital cables were 110ohm.

 

Btw, I also have a 75ohm BNC clock cable from Canare. The same result as my home built cables.

 

AES/EBU cables are 110 ohm. Wordclock cables are 75 or 50 depending on the device. That might do it :-)


"Don't Believe Everything You Think"

System

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Just now, mourip said:

Thanks for the cable referrals. I might look up the Oyaide as the Habst is pretty expensive.

 

I did upgrade my M3USB with an LPS and also added an internal regulator board.

 

Perhaps try another 75ohm cable just in case DIY digital cables are more of a challenge than analog ones. I make my own analog cables but think that digital ones might be more tricky.

 

Are you sure that you have the REF10 front channel selected to the correct jack in back? The front panel number is reversed  from the rear jacks if just looking from the front. I thought that mine was broken until I figured it out. Also two of the jacks are 50 ohm. Just checking. The M3USB will default to internal clock if it does not see a signal on ext even though you have set it for ext.

 

Do you have the M3USB set to re-clock?

 

 

5

 

Yes, I've checked the numbering from the front panel with the ones of the back panel :-)

 

I have both blue lights lit, so yes the MC3+ USB is reclocking using the external clock.

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1 hour ago, afrancois said:

I have never had a harder time assessing a HiFi component before, then with the REF10. I've spent more than 2 hours switching between the internal clock of the MC3+ USB and the REF10 and I'm still having a hard time telling the differences. My opinion is all over the place. Sometimes I find the REF10 better, sometimes the internal clock. The REF10 is connected to the sMS-200 ultra and to the MC3+ USB. During my tests, the REF 10 remained connected to the sMS-200 ultra, while I switched between REF10 and internal clock on the MC3+ USB.

 

I've made my own cables using:

- OYAIDE SLSB-BNC Pure Silver 4N BNC Connector 75 Ohm

- NEOTECH NEI-3003 MK III Coaxial cable 75 Ohm UP-OCC Silver Plated

 

The cable to the MC3+ USB is 20 cm long

The cable to the sMS-200 ultra is about 30 cm long

 

The differences, if there are any, are very subtle:

- overall I have the impression that the stereo image is larger with the internal clock (on the other hand, often I found the stereo image to be a bit exaggerated even before the REF10, so perhaps now it's more natural with the REF10?)

- with drums, I find the decays sometimes to be better with the REF10

- the piano also sounds sometimes more natural with the REF10, but when I switch back to the internal clock I find the piano as natural with the internal clock

 

For now, this doesn't justify a nearly 4000 euro upgrade, that's for sure.

I hear you coming: let's now buy some cables costing a fortune!

 

I'm wondering if those that experience clear differences, have upgraded the MC3+ USB with an LPS-1?

What I mean is, that I suspect that the upgrade to the LPS-1 renders the internal clock that good, that perhaps an external clock doesn't make any difference anymore.

 

Other possibilities of course remain:

- I'm using bad BNC cables (or not good enough cables)

- My femto clock upgraded Lyngdorf DPA-1 doesn't let me hear the potential of the REF10

 

I've found a song where the difference between REF10 and internal clocking is a bit more apparent. "Bo Stief Dream Machine, Heart". In the beginning, I clearly hear more micro-vibrations of the metal strings of the guitar.

The problem I find is that everything with internal clocking sounds a tad louder, however, this is not true. I've checked with a good SPL meter. I think this is because it sounds a bit clearer with internal clocking. REF10 is less clear, but smoother.

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30 minutes ago, mourip said:

 

Is the Oyaide D-510 a 75ohm cable? The ones on EBay do not specify...

The finished cable uses this http://www.oyaide.com/ENGLISH/AUDIO/products_category/Cables_for_visual/pg526.html

Check specs, you will see it is 75ohms. Make sure to get the one with BNC plugs, the model number is just a letter different from the RCA plug version.  

HQplayer - NAA - Devialet D-800 - YG Acoustics Carmel + dual ELAC sub-2090

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29 minutes ago, zoltan said:

The finished cable uses this http://www.oyaide.com/ENGLISH/AUDIO/products_category/Cables_for_visual/pg526.html

Check specs, you will see it is 75ohms. Make sure to get the one with BNC plugs, the model number is just a letter different from the RCA plug version.  

I've ordered the DB-510. I already have a pure silver digital interconnect from Oyaide and I'm very satisfied with it. "OYAIDE AR-910 XLR AES-EBU Cable 5N Pure Silver 0.70M".  That's the one between the MC3+ USB and my DAC. 

Perhaps trying to make my own digital BNC cables was a mistake. The four oyaide BNC plugs weren't exactly cheap :-(

To be continued...

 

 

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1 hour ago, afrancois said:

I've ordered the DB-510. I already have a pure silver digital interconnect from Oyaide and I'm very satisfied with it. "OYAIDE AR-910 XLR AES-EBU Cable 5N Pure Silver 0.70M".  That's the one between the MC3+ USB and my DAC. 

Perhaps trying to make my own digital BNC cables was a mistake. The four oyaide BNC plugs weren't exactly cheap :-(

To be continued...

 

 

I also have that AES/EBU cable. Very good value for the money. I actually use an Acoustic Revive AES/EBU but still have the Oyaide. Maybe, I should test it again with the MC3+USB (earlier I tested it with my MSB UMT to my Devialet)
I think you were spot on with the Oyaide plugs but you should have bought the above mentioned Oyaide digital cable by the metre for the DIY route.  Nevertheless, you can still reuse those plugs. I hope Oyaide BNC will work for you and you'll hear the Ref 10 shine.

HQplayer - NAA - Devialet D-800 - YG Acoustics Carmel + dual ELAC sub-2090

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20 hours ago, afrancois said:

I'm wondering if those that experience clear differences, have upgraded the MC3+ USB with an LPS-1?

What I mean is, that I suspect that the upgrade to the LPS-1 renders the internal clock that good, that perhaps an external clock doesn't make any difference anymore.

A few remarks here:

  • In general, and this has been observed by multiple listeners, including @romaz, the better the LPSUs in your installation, the more transparent the sound produced and the more the effect of additional improvements is perceptible
  • in my own installation, I am using a Paul Hynes LPSU to power the MC-3+ USB, and I started to notice very significant improvements in terms of transparency at this stage
  • I have A/B tested various devices powered by the Paul Hynes and by an LPS-1 from Uptone. And I have to underline that the LPS-1, when powered by the stock energizer, has not impressed me. Things are improving significantly if you replace the stock energizer by a LPSU (HDPlex for instance). And if I am not mistaken, you are using the LPS-1 in your system, aren't you ?
  • I have not been impressed by the 75 Ohm BNC cables by Oyaide in the clock application. My best listening experience was provided using Pasternack triple shielded 75 Ohm cables (I gave the link somewhere up in this thread).

So a few ideas which might help improve your experience:

  • buy Pasternack cables, conform to the recommendation of Mutec in their user manual
  • try an even better LPSU for the MC-3+ USB and possibly the sMS-200 Ultra.

Just my 2c.

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Regarding @afrancois observations and speculation that using a MC3+USB with the standard SMPS might be restricting performance.

 

One thing I recall is Romaz's observations when he first tried a REF10.  I recall that this was at the Mutec stand at a show  (Munich?)  Romaz was very clear in stating that sound quality was much improved with the REF10 feeding the MC3+USB.  So, this indicates that the REF10 goodness should shine through with a standard MC3+USB.  Of course, transparency might improve with a decent LPSU for the MC3+USB, I am just saying that the REF10 improvements should still be apparent with a standard MC3+USB.  I also think that although SMPS's may be considered the work of the devil, my understanding is that the Mutec's SMPS is a least a decent SMPS.

 

So my hunch is that an issue with the clock cable is indeed the number 1 suspect.  Not the only suspect though, maybe the combination of REF10 and MC3+USB simply does not deliver with the Lyngdorf DPA-1, or perhaps even the Lyngdorf DPA-1 does not need a REF10.

 

Much speculation, but logic say's try again with alternative clock cables, the SMPS powered MC3+USB is not the issue here. 

Windows 11 PC, Roon, HQPlayer, Focus Fidelity convolutions, iFi Zen Stream, Paul Hynes SR4, Mutec REF10, Mutec MC3+USB, Devialet 1000Pro, KEF Blade.  Plus Pro-Ject Signature 12 TT for playing my 'legacy' vinyl collection. Desktop system; RME ADI-2 DAC fs, Meze Empyrean headphones.

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27 minutes ago, Confused said:

Much speculation, but logic say's try again with alternative clock cables, the SMPS powered MC3+USB is not the issue here. 

 

Hi @Confused,

Not on the same page with you here.

@afrancois was speculating that his LPS-1 was too good for the MC-3+ USB to be further susceptible to improvement by the Ref-10.

If the 75 Ohm cables were the only ones to blame here, @afrancois would not complain about a lesser transparency when the Ref-10 is in the loop. This lack of transparency is not caused by the clock IMHO.

 

I once added to my system an Iso Regen which had been let to me, powered by my LPS-1 with the stock energizer. The transparency was very adversely affected. I then powered the Iso Regen with my PH and the transparency was immediately restored. A ground loop caused by the stock energizer was probably the cause of this lack of transparency. So this is a valid track to follow.

 

Shileded 75 Ohm cable will probably bring further audible improvements of the benefits of the Ref-10.

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46 minutes ago, SwissBear said:

 

Hi @Confused,

Not on the same page with you here.

@afrancois was speculating that his LPS-1 was too good for the MC-3+ USB to be further susceptible to improvement by the Ref-10.

If the 75 Ohm cables were the only ones to blame here, @afrancois would not complain about a lesser transparency when the Ref-10 is in the loop. This lack of transparency is not caused by the clock IMHO.

 

I once added to my system an Iso Regen which had been let to me, powered by my LPS-1 with the stock energizer. The transparency was very adversely affected. I then powered the Iso Regen with my PH and the transparency was immediately restored. A ground loop caused by the stock energizer was probably the cause of this lack of transparency. So this is a valid track to follow.

 

Shileded 75 Ohm cable will probably bring further audible improvements of the benefits of the Ref-10.

Yes, you are correct, it is indeed myself that is on the wrong page, or more specifically I misinterpreted @afrancois post.  Re-reading the post from yesterday I see my error.  Anyway, I still see the clock cables as prime suspect here, all I can say is I look forward to @afrancois update on this one.  My apologies for posting rubbish!

Windows 11 PC, Roon, HQPlayer, Focus Fidelity convolutions, iFi Zen Stream, Paul Hynes SR4, Mutec REF10, Mutec MC3+USB, Devialet 1000Pro, KEF Blade.  Plus Pro-Ject Signature 12 TT for playing my 'legacy' vinyl collection. Desktop system; RME ADI-2 DAC fs, Meze Empyrean headphones.

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As a further point to note, the MC3’s clock does have the advantage of being integrated exactly where it should be in the unit.  The REF10 is a superior clock, but if it is compromised by the cable then the resulting sub optimal performance could be slightly inferior to the MC3’s internal clock, thus reducing transparency.  Quite possible in theory I would think.

Windows 11 PC, Roon, HQPlayer, Focus Fidelity convolutions, iFi Zen Stream, Paul Hynes SR4, Mutec REF10, Mutec MC3+USB, Devialet 1000Pro, KEF Blade.  Plus Pro-Ject Signature 12 TT for playing my 'legacy' vinyl collection. Desktop system; RME ADI-2 DAC fs, Meze Empyrean headphones.

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16 hours ago, SwissBear said:

A few remarks here:

  • In general, and this has been observed by multiple listeners, including @romaz, the better the LPSUs in your installation, the more transparent the sound produced and the more the effect of additional improvements is perceptible
  • in my own installation, I am using a Paul Hynes LPSU to power the MC-3+ USB, and I started to notice very significant improvements in terms of transparency at this stage
  • I have A/B tested various devices powered by the Paul Hynes and by an LPS-1 from Uptone. And I have to underline that the LPS-1, when powered by the stock energizer, has not impressed me. Things are improving significantly if you replace the stock energizer by a LPSU (HDPlex for instance). And if I am not mistaken, you are using the LPS-1 in your system, aren't you ?
  • I have not been impressed by the 75 Ohm BNC cables by Oyaide in the clock application. My best listening experience was provided using Pasternack triple shielded 75 Ohm cables (I gave the link somewhere up in this thread).

So a few ideas which might help improve your experience:

  • buy Pasternack cables, conform to the recommendation of Mutec in their user manual
  • try an even better LPSU for the MC-3+ USB and possibly the sMS-200 Ultra.

Just my 2c.

In fact I have an sPS-500 that powers two LPS-1's. One LPS-1 is for the sMS-200 ultra and, the other for the MC3+ USB. So no cheep/nasty SMPS's in my system. I have another LPS that powers another two LPS-1's. One for the ISO Regen and the other for the AQVOX. I don't think I have any power supply issues. 

I hope I will have my new BNC cable by the end of the week, if not it will be for Next Tuesday.

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1 hour ago, afrancois said:

In fact I have an sPS-500 that powers two LPS-1's. One LPS-1 is for the sMS-200 ultra and, the other for the MC3+ USB. So no cheep/nasty SMPS's in my system. I have another LPS that powers another two LPS-1's. One for the ISO Regen and the other for the AQVOX. I don't think I have any power supply issues. 

I hope I will have my new BNC cable by the end of the week, if not it will be for Next Tuesday.

 

Thank you for this precision. This removes the uncertainty surrounding the PSUs.

What remains a mystery to me is this:

On 12/18/2017 at 10:18 PM, afrancois said:

I think this is because it sounds a bit clearer with internal clocking. REF10 is less clear, but smoother.

 

I sincerely do not have the perception that the Ref-10 is affecting the transparency in any way. Apart from the smoothness you are referring to, it also brings a lot of additional dynamics, both macro and micro in my systems (I actually have one Ref-10 on my 2 systems, with similar benefits).

Have you checked whether your femto clock upgraded Lyngdorf DPA-1 is processing the time signal of the S-P/DIF input or if it applies its own time signal ? Might be the reason why you are not hearing the benefit of the ref-10. But you should not hear the benefit of the MC-3+ USB either...

Enjoy your new cables anyway.

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