Mutec REF 10 Masterclock

[romaz]

26 minutes ago, jelt2359 said:

To use this with the SMS200Ultra, would you need to feed it with a signal from the Mutec 3+ USB? Or can you go direct Ref10 -> SMS200 Ultra?

 

Each device requires its own 10 MHz input from the REF 10. Fortunately, the REF 10 has 8 outputs.

[romaz]

19 minutes ago, Confused said:

Thinking about this, why do you need the sMS-200Ultra, which from what I understand is basically a sMS-200 with better clock?  If the original sMS-200 can be modified to accept an external clock, is this not the best 'bang for your buck' solution?

 

The standard sMS-200 is incapable of a master clock input. The new sCLK-EX board in the sMS-200ultra, however, is capable of such an input although the option to fit it with the necessary BNC connector will cost an additional $200.

[One and a half]

4 hours ago, svart-hvitt said:

Tell me, what is an external clock supposed to do?

 

According to Sound on Sound:

 

"Overall, it should be clear from these tests that employing an external master clock cannot and will not improve the sound quality of a digital audio system. It might change it, and subjectively that change might be preferred, but it won't change things for the better in any technical sense."

Source: http://www.soundonsound.com/techniques/does-your-studio-need-digital-master-clock#top

 

It seems like talk of external clock is the normal audiophilia nonsense.

 

I would be happy to be proven wrong, but can someone refute the conclusion of Sound of Soun technical editor Hugh Robjohns?

Thing is the external clocks advantage is that the source and dac have the same reference.  

Mainly applied to S/PDIF, having the same clock keeps jitter and latency in check,  but S/PDIF front end receivers vary so widely that much of advantages of keeping time in check are lost and relies on PLL to keep on the straight and narrow.

Ideally if you had the source and the Dac from the same manufacturer that understands the transmission,  we would be better off, the only one comes to mind are Dcs and the new Gen2 from Auralic. They go some way, but neither locks onto the source directly.

[k-man]

 

2 hours ago, romaz said:

Each device requires its own 10 MHz input from the REF 10.

So if @Confused's Devialet DAC doesn't have the 10MHz or Word Clock Input, then is there any relevance towards getting a REF 10? Or is it perfectly acceptable to 'slave' just the Mutec unit?   

[julian.david]

1 hour ago, k-man said:

 

So if @Confused's Devialet DAC doesn't have the 10MHz or Word Clock Input, then is there any relevance towards getting a REF 10? Or is it perfectly acceptable to 'slave' just the Mutec unit?   

Hi there,

 

Thank you all for the interest in the REF 10. There absolutely is a relevance to getting the REF 10 and using it exclusively as an external reference for the MC-3+USB. Obviously it would be ideal if all the devices in your setup would have a 10 MHz, but we've found a clearly audible improvement in SQ just by using the REF 10 only for the MC-3+USB. In fact, our booth setup at High End was pretty much just that: we had a standard MacBook Pro running Roon and feeding the MC-3+USB with a variety of files (from 44.1 kHz to DSD256). The MC-3+USB was outputting to a Linear D headphone DAC by Lehmann Audio via Toslink (S/P-DIF optical). Then we would switch between internally referenced re-clocking with the MC-3+USB's internal clock and externally referenced re-clocking with the REF10. There was no way to externally sync the DAC unfortunately. But despite the fact that the optical connection to the DAC was a "jittery" optical one, there was a clearly audible improvement in staging, depth, and smoothness of sound when applying the REF 10 reference. 

 

So in a nutshell: yes, it is acceptable to 'slave' just the MC-3+USB 

 

Hope this helps!

[julian.david]

Hi again,

 

As promised I can confirm a US retail price of $3395.00 via our distributor Sonic Distribution.

Pretty exciting, eh?

 

Julian

[julian.david]

One last thing (for tonight):

We are just starting to see the first production measurement data and things are looking really good. I will be able to share some curves with you soon 

[svart-hvitt]

7 minutes ago, julian.david said:

Hi there,

 

Thank you all for the interest in the REF 10. There absolutely is a relevance to getting the REF 10 and using it exclusively as an external reference for the MC-3+USB. Obviously it would be ideal if all the devices in your setup would have a 10 MHz, but we've found a clearly audible improvement in SQ just by using the REF 10 only for the MC-3+USB. In fact, our booth setup at High End was pretty much just that: we had a standard MacBook Pro running Roon and feeding the MC-3+USB with a variety of files (from 44.1 kHz to DSD256). The MC-3+USB was outputting to a Linear D headphone DAC by Lehmann Audio via Toslink (S/P-DIF optical). Then we would switch between internally referenced re-clocking with the MC-3+USB's internal clock and externally referenced re-clocking with the REF10. There was no way to externally sync the DAC unfortunately. But despite the fact that the optical connection to the DAC was a "jittery" optical one, there was a clearly audible improvement in staging, depth, and smoothness of sound when applying the REF 10 reference. 

 

So in a nutshell: yes, it is acceptable to 'slave' just the MC-3+USB 

 

Hope this helps!

Thanks for interesting answer!

 

It means, that it would be possible to capture/record the sound with and without Ref10, wouldn't it?

 

In that case, you'd be able to present two sound files: One with the Ref10, and another without the Ref10.

 

Then it would be possible to evaluate the "sound" of the Ref10 in the comfort of one's own listening space.

 

Do you see my point?

[julian.david]

Just now, svart-hvitt said:

Thanks for interesting answer!

 

It means, that it would be possible to capture/record the sound with and without Ref10, wouldn't it?

 

In that case, you'd be able to present to sound files: One with the Ref10, and another without the Ref10.

 

Then it would be possible to evaluate the "sound" of the Ref10 in the comfort of one's own listening space.

 

Do you see my point?

 

Well, if only it was so simple ;-)

You are still talking about digital files here and the re-clocking does not change the bits of the source material at all. The re-clocking process (at least how we do it) is perfectly bit-transparent. Some other manufacturers do re-clocking by applying a sample rate conversion (SRC), but that's not how MUTEC does it. Clocking and re-clocking is all about the timing between samples and how the DAC is able to convert these samples into analog audio. So unfortunately there is no test (to my knowledge) of the re-clocking we can do by recording the output of the MC-3+USB. This applies for the re-clocking process in general, whether we do it based on the internal clock of the MC-3+USB or based on the REF 10. 

 

Does that help?

 

Julian

[svart-hvitt]

1 hour ago, julian.david said:

 

Well, if only it was so simple ;-)

You are still talking about digital files here and the re-clocking does not change the bits of the source material at all. The re-clocking process (at least how we do it) is perfectly bit-transparent. Some other manufacturers do re-clocking by applying a sample rate conversion (SRC), but that's not how MUTEC does it. Clocking and re-clocking is all about the timing between samples and how the DAC is able to convert these samples into analog audio. So unfortunately there is no test (to my knowledge) of the re-clocking we can do by recording the output of the MC-3+USB. This applies for the re-clocking process in general, whether we do it based on the internal clock of the MC-3+USB or based on the REF 10. 

 

Does that help?

 

Julian

 

Well, it should be possible to capture the sound of the Ref10, employing an analog-to-digital converter.

 

You have 3 scenarios to be captured:

 

1) Without the Ref10

2) With the Ref10 connected to MC-3-USB only

3) With the Ref10 connected to the whole chain of MC-3-USB and the AD converter.

 

AD and DA cconverters are extremely transparent these days, cfr. Studio Magazin 10/2016 where different AD converters were tested and test files were made:

 

http://accelerando.audio/de/studio-magazin/

[Kritpoon]

2 hours ago, julian.david said:

One last thing (for tonight):

We are just starting to see the first production measurement data and things are looking really good. I will be able to share some curves with you soon 

 

Hi Julian,

 

When will Mutec be taking order for the Ref 10 clock? And the expected date for the 1st batch shipment?

 

Krit P.

[julian.david]

7 hours ago, Kritpoon said:

 

Hi Julian,

 

When will Mutec be taking order for the Ref 10 clock? And the expected date for the 1st batch shipment?

 

Krit P.

Hi Krit,

 

MUTEC is taking orders for the REF 10 already and we are expecting to ship in the first half of June. In fact, we've already taken some orders at the show. Send an e-mail to our sales department at contact(AT)mutec-net.com if you want to be among the first to own one! 

[julian.david]

9 hours ago, svart-hvitt said:

 

Well, it should be possible to capture the sound of the Ref10, employing an analog-to-digital converter.

 

You have 3 scenarios to be captured:

 

1) Without the Ref10

2) With the Ref10 connected to MC-3-USB only

3) With the Ref10 connected to the whole chain of MC-3-USB and the AD converter.

 

AD and DA cconverters are extremely transparent these days, cfr. Studio Magazin 10/2016 where different AD converters were tested and test files were made:

 

http://accelerando.audio/de/studio-magazin/

 

Hi there,

 

The link you posted unfortunately is in German (which a lot of people don't speak here) and it doesn't give any information about what the audio files represent, what exactly was tested, and how. So I'm not sure what to make of that. 

 

But regardless, we are talking about detailed, yet significant improvements on a high-end level here. The test you are suggesting introduces a host of variables, a relatively elaborate, artificial test setup, and ultimately I don't believe that it will yield any meaningful results for most of the readers here. 

 

I would much rather spend that time to figure out a way so you can have a listen to the REF 10 yourself in the environment you know and in the application it was intended to be used: enjoying digital music playback through a high-quality DAC and a good pair of speakers. Judging by the link you posted, I'm guessing you are in Germany or one of the German speaking neighboring countries, so let me know if you're genuinely interested in a demo. 

 

Best regards,

Julian

[svart-hvitt]

13 minutes ago, julian.david said:

 

Hi there,

 

The link you posted unfortunately is in German (which a lot of people don't speak here) and it doesn't give any information about what the audio files represent, what exactly was tested, and how. So I'm not sure what to make of that. 

 

But regardless, we are talking about detailed, yet significant improvements on a high-end level here. The test you are suggesting introduces a host of variables, a relatively elaborate, artificial test setup, and ultimately I don't believe that it will yield any meaningful results for most of the readers here. 

 

I would much rather spend that time to figure out a way so you can have a listen to the REF 10 yourself in the environment you know and in the application it was intended to be used: enjoying digital music playback through a high-quality DAC and a good pair of speakers. Judging by the link you posted, I'm guessing you are in Germany or one of the German speaking neighboring countries, so let me know if you're genuinely interested in a demo. 

 

Best regards,

Julian

I am in Norway and it would be great if the Norwegian distributor had a demo Ref10 unit.

 

:-)

[jelt2359]

Will the ref10 come with an option to use external lps supplies? Or would I have to mod this myself/ with my dealer's help like with the 3+ USB if I were to pursue this option?

[modmix]

German aktives-hoeren has a picture showing REF 10 inside  and a report:

" Durch die immer wieder überarbeitete Stromversorgung --- habe man diesem bessere Rauschwerte entlocken können, als sie vom Hersteller des Oszillators spezifiziert seien."  source

My translation: phase noise is lower than manufacture spec due to several times improved power supply.

 

Modification of this section quite likely will ruin excellent phase noise behaviour, I guess.

 

Ulli

 

 

[julian.david]

3 hours ago, jelt2359 said:

Will the ref10 come with an option to use external lps supplies? Or would I have to mod this myself/ with my dealer's help like with the 3+ USB if I were to pursue this option?

As Ulli mentioned MUTEC put lots of effort into creating an exceptional linear power supply with highest-grade power line filtering (without any "open", unfiltered cable paths), and lowest-noise power supplies for each section of the circuitry. So it really doesn't make a lot of sense for us to use an external power supply. We understand the concerns with the switch-mode supply in the MC-3+USB and decided to put extra emphasis on this area with the REF 10. 

 

Julian

[julian.david]

3 hours ago, svart-hvitt said:

I am in Norway and it would be great if the Norwegian distributor had a demo Ref10 unit.

 

:-)

Send me a PM or email with your contact details so we can continue that conversation. 

 

Thanks,

Julian

[Kritpoon]

6 hours ago, julian.david said:

Hi Krit,

 

MUTEC is taking orders for the REF 10 already and we are expecting to ship in the first half of June. In fact, we've already taken some orders at the show. Send an e-mail to our sales department at contact(AT)mutec-net.com if you want to be among the first to own one! 

 Thank you Julian!

[jelt2359]

Some other questions for audiophile (not pro audio) use. 

 

1) Does this mean that everytime I change to a song with different sample rate (as you can imagine, happens a lot with streaming), I have to check and fiddle with the sample rate settings on the Ref10 + 3+ USB, before I get the proper clocking?

 

2) Given that it now has LPS, does it mean we need to specify the voltage we want, when ordering?

[julian.david]

2 hours ago, jelt2359 said:

Some other questions for audiophile (not pro audio) use. 

 

1) Does this mean that everytime I change to a song with different sample rate (as you can imagine, happens a lot with streaming), I have to check and fiddle with the sample rate settings on the Ref10 + 3+ USB, before I get the proper clocking?

 

Hi again,

No, that won't be the case! The re-clocking in the MC-3+USB always detects the incoming sample rate from the digital audio streams and adapts accordingly. So there's no user operation involved.

 

When you connect the REF 10 as an external reference, nothing changes in this regard. It's important to distinguish between the sample rate of the digital audio and the clock reference. The REF 10 is never involved in the digital audio. All it does is to provide an exceptionally low noise 10 MHz clock reference for the MC-3+USB (and other compatible devices) to do their processing that's completely independent from the sample rate of the digital audio.

 

2 hours ago, jelt2359 said:

2) Given that it now has LPS, does it mean we need to specify the voltage we want, when ordering?

 

The LPS in the REF 10 is still international with a replaceable fuse for 115/230 V operation. It still makes sense to let us know what grid you're on when ordering so we can provide the proper fuse value and select the appropriate voltage for you prior to shipping. Obviously, if you order from a U.S. store for example, this will already have been taken care of.

 

Best regards,

Julian

[Kritpoon]

Ref 10 is very very interesting (The spec is amazaing!). Though, its almost impossible for me to hear them (I am in Bangkok, Thailand) Since I already have the MC3+ weather or not with the REF 10 connected to the MC-3+ improvement is worth USD3k+ to my ears, its impossible to know. At this price point, the decision to pull the tricker should be a lot easier if I can hear it with my own ears! IMHO.

 

Krit P.

 

PS. another added benefit is that not only REF10 can benefit your MC-3+ (just one device) but also your other reclocker, source, usb-box, DAC and etc. (providing they have Ref WCLK input) The application is just quite mind blowing.

[Abtr]

Would the MC-3+(no USB) with REF10 sound better than the MC-3+USB without the REF10 (as an S/PDIF reclocker)?

[Fyper]

Theoretically: yes. From a clocking/re-clocking point of view. But it seems the PSU of the MC3+usb is better than the MC3+.

So there is only one way to be certain...

[beautiful music]

@julian.david we eager to know more information about Ref10 also I didn't see any further information at your website