Mutec REF 10 Masterclock

[jelt2359]

Thank you. I will order a bnc cable to try it out, but in the meantime have you tried using the mutec as a word clock reference to the rednet 3?

[Keith_W]

Appreciate your contribution to this thread, Julian. 

 

I would also suggest that any potential purchaser of your clock check their DAC to see if it accepts a 10MHz input. My DAC for example (Merging NADAC) only accepts inputs in the base frequency or multiples thereof - e.g. 44.1kHz, 48kHz, etc. I understand (correct me if i'm wrong) that the Mutec does not have a synthesizer and is therefore unable to generate 44.1kHz for my DAC? 

[mourip]

56 minutes ago, jelt2359 said:

Thank you. I will order a bnc cable to try it out, but in the meantime have you tried using the mutec as a word clock reference to the rednet 3?

 

i have not. Please let us know how it goes.

 

I assumed that I would then not have it available for re-clocking the output which is a real winner. If it worked simultaneously for both functions that would be great and very cost effective!

 

Julian is that possible?

[jelt2359]

Yes, exactly, I have that question too. I am trying to repurpose some old cables to try to use the Mutec 3+ USB as a reclocker and a clock reference for my RN3, and I'm not sure how to do it.

[austinpop]

3 hours ago, Keith_W said:

I would also suggest that any potential purchaser of your clock check their DAC to see if it accepts a 10MHz input. 

 

It would be really great to list DACs that accept a 10MHz reference clock. Either they're not very common, or I'm in the wrong price segment - i.e. sub-$3k.

 

DACs with a word clock input seem to be more common. For example, the Mytek Brooklyn.

[PaulJL]

On 6/7/2017 at 4:45 AM, Keith_W said:

 

The short answer is, it's complicated. 

 

Clocks have to be placed as close to the DAC as possible. This is because the jitter performance suffers the more interfaces get in the way. If you had clocks with equal performance, the clock placed next to the DAC will perform better than the same clock placed externally. 

 

Furthermore, the performance of the external clock depends on the type of PLL (phase lock loop) in your DAC. 

 

Using an external clock may or may not increase the performance of your DAC. It comes down to the performance of the external clock, the performance of the clock in your DAC, the design of the PLL, the number of interfaces the external clock has to traverse, and even the quality of the cable connecting the external clock to your DAC*. 

 

(* this is something that even objectivists won't disagree with! It needs to be 75 Ohm impedance, and both clock output and DAC clock input need to be designed within spec, otherwise jitter performance suffers) 

 

Hello Keith--You've raised a question I have about external clocks and high quality DACs. I'm looking closely at the Berkeley Audio Ref 2 and the EMM DAC2X, neither of which support an external clock input. Since I'm planning to buy an external clock to support whatever USB bridge and USB PC card (and anything else with a clock input) I've been wondering if I'm making a poor decision not buying a DAC that I can connect to the clock as well. With a very high quality DAC like the two I mentioned, will it matter that I can't share the external clock signal?

 

Thanks.

[4est]

4 hours ago, austinpop said:

 

It would be really great to list DACs that accept a 10MHz reference clock. Either they're not very common, or I'm in the wrong price segment - i.e. sub-$3k.

 

DACs with a word clock input seem to be more common. For example, the Mytek Brooklyn.

 

I do not know of any that accept 10MHz unless the have a built in word clock. As I have said, that is a reference clock frequency used for word clocks and other telecommunication things.

[4est]

9 hours ago, mourip said:

 

As a data point. I have a Rednet D16 with a Mutec USB +3 following it as a reclocker. I use an Antelope LiveClock as an external wordclock for the D16. I initially used the LC as an external wordclock for the Mutec also but found it did not improve the sound. I think that the internal wordclock of the Mutec is very good and unless you have a lot of cash to burn it might not be economical to try to get a small increase from trying to use an external clock for it. The Rednet device is another story however. It responded very well to the external clock. With my current setup I am getting better sound than I would have ever thought was possible. I am using AES cables between D16/Mutec/DAC.

 

Regardless of how it is used I have found the Mutec to be a really good device and a great value.

 

Nothing personal, but the live clock is Antelope's bottom tier clock, and likely no better than the MC3+. They are similar products at similar price points. As noted, you might want to try the MC3+ on both simultaneously. That is what they are meant for.

[mourip]

2 hours ago, 4est said:

 

Nothing personal, but the live clock is Antelope's bottom tier clock, and likely no better than the MC3+. They are similar products at similar price points. As noted, you might want to try the MC3+ on both simultaneously. That is what they are meant for.

 

It would be great if the Mutec could re-clock and simultaneously act as a wordclock for the RN3. I am hoping that Julian will advise. Hard to really say which would be better without trying it. If it sounded even as good as the Live Clock I could sell that.

 

I have to admit that I am listening to music more now with this present setup and spending less time researching my next tweak. Probably a good sign.

[jelt2359]

33 minutes ago, mourip said:

 

It would be great if the Mutec could re-clock and simultaneously act as a wordclock for the RN3. I am hoping that Julian will advise. Hard to really say which would be better without trying it. If it sounded even as good as the Live Clock I could sell that.

 

I have to admit that I am listening to music more now with this present setup and spending less time researching my next tweak. Probably a good sign.

Reading the manual again, can you try to connect your Antelope to the Wck In of the Mutec 3+ USB, then set the Mutec 3+ USB to be on EXTERN and RE-CLK mode. Then connect a Wck Out cable from the Mutec 3+ USB to the Rednet to see if that works to output a clock signal as well.

 

It seems the way we want to use it can *only* work with EXTERN and RE-CLK (not INTERN and RE-CLK). But if this works, you could probably sell the Antelope and consider the Ref10 to do what you're thinking of doing (I am thinking the same).

[greenleo]

On 2017-6-10 at 7:26 AM, svart-hvitt said:

 

I think extraordinary claims need extraordinary evidence. Your and SOTM's claim of 30 centimeters is as extraordinary as Antelope's 250 meters claim.

 

However, we know that Antelope is a big clock producer, delivering word clock gear to Hollywood productions and the like. Sotm is more of a boutique isn't it?

 

I too look forward to seeing what Mutec says. If they side with the Sotm claim or the Antelope policy of pretty long cable runs.

I think the original quote was 250th meter.  Does it mean 250/1000 meter?

[julian.david]

19 hours ago, Keith_W said:

Appreciate your contribution to this thread, Julian. 

 

I would also suggest that any potential purchaser of your clock check their DAC to see if it accepts a 10MHz input. My DAC for example (Merging NADAC) only accepts inputs in the base frequency or multiples thereof - e.g. 44.1kHz, 48kHz, etc. I understand (correct me if i'm wrong) that the Mutec does not have a synthesizer and is therefore unable to generate 44.1kHz for my DAC? 

 

That's correct. You would need at least an MC-3+ to take the 10 MHz signal as a reference and create a high-quality Word Clock at 44.1 kHz.

[julian.david]

15 hours ago, austinpop said:

 

It would be really great to list DACs that accept a 10MHz reference clock. Either they're not very common, or I'm in the wrong price segment - i.e. sub-$3k.

 

DACs with a word clock input seem to be more common. For example, the Mytek Brooklyn.

 

11 hours ago, 4est said:

 

I do not know of any that accept 10MHz unless the have a built in word clock. As I have said, that is a reference clock frequency used for word clocks and other telecommunication things.

 

We are working on a compatibility list for DACs. There are definitely a few out there already such as the Esoteric D-1, D-02X and D-05X, TEAC NT-503, Antelope Zodiac, and we are expecting there to be more manufacturers jumping on the bandwagon in the future.

[svart-hvitt]

41 minutes ago, julian.david said:

 

 

We are working on a compatibility list for DACs. There are definitely a few out there already such as the Esoteric D-1, D-02X and D-05X, TEAC NT-503, Antelope Zodiac, and we are expecting there to be more manufacturers jumping on the bandwagon in the future.

Would you add a list of compatible streamers (without DAC) as well?

 

:-)

[pam1975]

1 minute ago, svart-hvitt said:

Would you add a list of compatible streamers (without DAC) as well?

 

:-)

+1!

[jelt2359]

9 hours ago, jelt2359 said:

Reading the manual again, can you try to connect your Antelope to the Wck In of the Mutec 3+ USB, then set the Mutec 3+ USB to be on EXTERN and RE-CLK mode. Then connect a Wck Out cable from the Mutec 3+ USB to the Rednet to see if that works to output a clock signal as well.

 

It seems the way we want to use it can *only* work with EXTERN and RE-CLK (not INTERN and RE-CLK). But if this works, you could probably sell the Antelope and consider the Ref10 to do what you're thinking of doing (I am thinking the same).

Or; Julian can just confirm if this works!

[julian.david]

3 minutes ago, svart-hvitt said:

Would you add a list of compatible streamers (without DAC) as well?

 

:-)

 

1 minute ago, pam1975 said:

+1!

 

That is the plan

[Confused]

Many thanks to the various contributors to this thread over the last few days, all I can say is that I am learning much about the world of audio clocks, reference clocks, word clocks etc.  Good stuff!

 

However, I have a question.  In my set up I am using a Mutec MC3+USB to feed the DAC (In my case Devialet's 'ADH Core') via AES.  My understanding is that AES includes a clock signal.  So, if I have the REF 10 providing the reference to the Mutec, I am then (presumably) feeding the DAC (ADH) with a very accurately clocked feed.  Will the Devialet's internal clock benefit from this feed or effectively use the clock in this feed?  Or does the Devialet's internal clock (presumably less accurate) basically take precedence in the end.  This question may extend to other DACs with AES input, or indeed DACs with AES and word clock input.

 

One comment re the proposed compatibility list.  My understanding is that if a device has a word clock input but does not have a reference input, this is not compatible with the REF 10.  However, if you use the REF 10 to feed a Mutec MC3 or MC3+USB, then you could use the MC3's word clock output to feed another device with word clock input.  Will this work in all cases?  Or could we also benefit from a compatibility list for devices compatible with the MC3's word clock output?

 

 

[4est]

4 minutes ago, Confused said:

Many thanks to the various contributors to this thread over the last few days, all I can say is that I am learning much about the world of audio clocks, reference clocks, word clocks etc.  Good stuff!

 

However, I have a question.  In my set up I am using a Mutec MC3+USB to feed the DAC (In my case Devialet's 'ADH Core') via AES.  My understanding is that AES includes a clock signal.  So, if I have the REF 10 providing the reference to the Mutec, I am then (presumably) feeding the DAC (ADH) with a very accurately clocked feed.  Will the Devialet's internal clock benefit from this feed or effectively use the clock in this feed?  Or does the Devialet's internal clock (presumably less accurate) basically take precedence in the end.  This question may extend to other DACs with AES input, or indeed DACs with AES and word clock input.

 

One comment re the proposed compatibility list.  My understanding is that if a device has a word clock input but does not have a reference input, this is not compatible with the REF 10.  However, if you use the REF 10 to feed a Mutec MC3 or MC3+USB, then you could use the MC3's word clock output to feed another device with word clock input.  Will this work in all cases?  Or could we also benefit from a compatibility list for devices compatible with the MC3's word clock output?

 

 

 

Word clocks should be compatible unless it is "super clock", which are 256x. They are standard studio gear.

[4est]

1 hour ago, jelt2359 said:

Or; Julian can just confirm if this works!

 

I really do not get what you are trying to do here. The mc3+ and the Live Clock are comparable products. Assuming the mc3+ is not worse than the Live Clock, one would simply take WD CLK out of the mc3 into the Rednet. The Live Clock is redundant.

[4est]

2 hours ago, julian.david said:

 

 

We are working on a compatibility list for DACs. There are definitely a few out there already such as the Esoteric D-1, D-02X and D-05X, TEAC NT-503, Antelope Zodiac, and we are expecting there to be more manufacturers jumping on the bandwagon in the future.

 

Oh, I'd forgotten about the last two, and tbh the Esoteric stuff doesn't really count imo. Most people would likely use their d-link. If this is becoming more popular, it makes me curious as to how they sound that way, and what injecting M [email protected]/12/22.2/24 MHz replacing the internal clocks and not needing to synthesize the final frequency.

 

The M2Tech Evo was ahead of its time in this regard by accepting multiple clock types, and is still a very viable option if one does not need over 192k.

[mourip]

43 minutes ago, 4est said:

 

I really do not get what you are trying to do here. The mc3+ and the Live Clock are comparable products. Assuming the mc3+ is not worse than the Live Clock, one would simply take WD CLK out of the mc3 into the Rednet. The Live Clock is redundant.

 

Both jelt2359 and I are wondering if the Mutec USB can work to simultaneously re-clock and to also provide ext wclk back to the RN3. If as you suggest the LiveClock and Mutec USB are at the same level of accuracy in terms of clocking then if this works we would not really need the LiveClock.

 

Please note that I am wildly happy with my present configuration using the D16/Mutec/Antelope combo but it is always nice to be able to simplify one's chain and get the same or better SQ.

 

Hope that Julian can put this question to rest. Thanks!

[4est]

1 minute ago, mourip said:

 

Both jelt2359 and I are wondering if the Mutec USB can work to simultaneously re-clock and to also provide ext wclk back to the RN3. If as you suggest the LiveClock and Mutec USB are at the same level of accuracy in terms of clocking then if this works we would not really need the LiveClock.

 

Hope that Julian can put this question to rest. Thanks!

 

[4est]

1 hour ago, mourip said:

 

Both jelt2359 and I are wondering if the Mutec USB can work to simultaneously re-clock and to also provide ext wclk back to the RN3. If as you suggest the LiveClock and Mutec USB are at the same level of accuracy in terms of clocking then if this works we would not really need the LiveClock.

 

Please note that I am wildly happy with my present configuration using the D16/Mutec/Antelope combo but it is always nice to be able to simplify one's chain and get the same or better SQ.

 

Hope that Julian can put this question to rest. Thanks!

Sorry about the blank response.

 

The two clocks are comparable in price, but what one sounds better is something I cannot answer. The mc3+ should be able to reclock and provide WD CLK to the RN simultaneously. You can wait for an answer from Julian, but in general that is their purpose. I do not think you can really hurt anything if you start off with volume low in the event of a burst of noise from an unlock.

[jelt2359]

It seems to me that the mutec 3+ USB does not reclock and provide a clock reference when not connected to an external clock. At least, I cannot get it to work. 

 

My hope is however that it could work with an external clock; and although why it would work with an external clock but not its internal clock is beyond me; nonetheless that seems to be what the manual implies.