Mutec REF 10 Masterclock

[austinpop]

Deleted.

[vortecjr]

2 hours ago, julian.david said:

 

 

 

Maybe somebody is going to write a Wikipedia article about this or we'll put together some kind of primer. But yes, we are calling the REF 10 a reference master clock generator. It strictly generates 10 MHz signals that are unrelated to audio Word Clock signals (which would typically have the same sample rate as the audio stream). 

 

So @austinpop is correct in saying that there are master (word) clocks and master reference clocks. The MC-3+ and MC-3+USB are audio master clock generators for example (albeit with a 10 MHz input) that can be used to create and distribute Word Clock signals as well as Re-Clocking. The REF 10 is a pure reference clock generator that can be used to provide an ultra precise reference for master clock generators (like the MC-3+/MC-3+USB) and compatible DACs. 

 

What's interesting about all of this is that the concept of a master and slave is becoming a little bit confusing with 10 MHz clocks and Re-Clocking. It used to be that you would always have one master in a digital audio system that would set the sample rate, and a bunch of slaves, typically all connected via Word Clock. When dealing with the 10 MHz reference, I believe it's important to keep the reference clock mentally separate from the audio clock, because those are independent. 

 

Let's look at a simple example chain: 

Network player (S/P-DIF output) -> MC-3+ / MC-3+USB for Re-Clocking -> DAC

 

In this case, the network player is essentially the master of this system and it will output digital audio streams at various sample rates. The Re-Clocking picks up that sample rate, re-clocks the stream based on the internal clock, and outputs the audio to the DAC. If the sample rate of the source (the network player) changes, the sample rate of the entire system changes accordingly. No sample rate conversion takes place!!

 

Now if you add a REF 10 to this system, the only thing that changes is that the Re-Clocking within the MC-3+/MC-3+USB is now based on this ultra precise external clock signal of the REF 10 to increase the quality of the re-clocking process affecting the sound quality of the entire system. But everything else stays the same and the REF 10 is technically not the "master" of the system in the traditional sense of dictating the sample rate. 

 

Does that make sense to you all?

 

Julian

I hope you don't mind my asking, but why not just include in the ultra precise clock from the REF 10 in the MC-3+/MC-3+USB? Are using a PPL to lock onto the SPDIF signal, which adds jitter, and then reclock to remove the jitter? If you have a USB input that is Asynchronous that allows the DAC to be the master and not the music sever why would you use SPDIF? Thank you in advance.  

[julian.david]

11 hours ago, pam1975 said:

makes sense, thanks @julian.david 

But *what if* the Ref 10 is now also connected to the network player?

how does this change the master/slave concept (if at all)?

 

 

It doesn't change the master/slave concept at all when it comes to the audio sample rate master. It just means that the network player can use the superior 10 MHz clock as the basis of its processing, which (hopefully) will yield a better performing source. The same would be true for taking another output from the REF 10 to provide a 10 MHz reference for the DAC in this example. Now all of the three devices in the chain can benefit from the external reference, but the network player still sets the sample rate for the chain. This is exactly the reason why we are providing a total of eight outputs (at different impedances) with the REF 10. 

[julian.david]

9 hours ago, vortecjr said:

I hope you don't mind my asking, but why not just include in the ultra precise clock from the REF 10 in the MC-3+/MC-3+USB? Are using a PPL to lock onto the SPDIF signal, which adds jitter, and then reclock to remove the jitter? If you have a USB input that is Asynchronous that allows the DAC to be the master and not the music sever why would you use SPDIF? Thank you in advance.  

 

So there are a couple of questions here and the answers may depend on the individual setup. In terms of why the clock from the REF 10 is not included in the MC-3+/MC-3+USB: it would require a whole different design that would make the products wildly more expensive. The internal 1G clock in the MC-3+/MC-3+USB is really good in its own right and a lot of people feel like the product is great value for the money. The REF 10 is a much more expensive product with a very elaborate power supply and clock design that is intended for those looking to get the utmost performance at a premium cost. 

 

Regarding the other questions: I was previously describing a specific use case and of course there are situations that would argue against using S/P-DIF. We've found that the performance of the different digital inputs on a give DAC is usually not the same across the board. From an electrical (jitter) standpoint, an AES or BNC connection is often better than S/P-DIF optical. If you have a DAC with a USB input then it comes down to the quality of that USB interface. What about EMF interference from the music server? Is there any galvanic isolation? 

 

It just comes down to your specific setup and how to get the best performance out of it. Using an MC-3+/MC-3+USB (with or without) the REF 10 can be great way to do that, but of course it's by no means the only way. Otherwise it would be boring, wouldn't it?

 

Julian

[vortecjr]

1 hour ago, julian.david said:

 

So there are a couple of questions here and the answers may depend on the individual setup. In terms of why the clock from the REF 10 is not included in the MC-3+/MC-3+USB: it would require a whole different design that would make the products wildly more expensive. The internal 1G clock in the MC-3+/MC-3+USB is really good in its own right and a lot of people feel like the product is great value for the money. The REF 10 is a much more expensive product with a very elaborate power supply and clock design that is intended for those looking to get the utmost performance at a premium cost. 

 

Regarding the other questions: I was previously describing a specific use case and of course there are situations that would argue against using S/P-DIF. We've found that the performance of the different digital inputs on a give DAC is usually not the same across the board. From an electrical (jitter) standpoint, an AES or BNC connection is often better than S/P-DIF optical. If you have a DAC with a USB input then it comes down to the quality of that USB interface. What about EMF interference from the music server? Is there any galvanic isolation? 

 

It just comes down to your specific setup and how to get the best performance out of it. Using an MC-3+/MC-3+USB (with or without) the REF 10 can be great way to do that, but of course it's by no means the only way. Otherwise it would be boring, wouldn't it?

 

Julian

I appreciate your responses. I have one follow up question that I did not think to ask before. Is the USB input also subject to the re-clocking circuit that is influenced by the use of the REF 10?

[svart-hvitt]

36 minutes ago, vortecjr said:

I appreciate your responses. I have one follow up question that I did not think to ask before. Is the USB input also subject to the re-clocking circuit that is influenced by the use of the REF 10?

In the same vein: Are alle the inputs of the MC-3+USB influenced, for example the AES-EBU input?

[4est]

14 hours ago, julian.david said:

 

 

 

But yes, we are calling the REF 10 a reference master clock generator. It strictly generates 10 MHz signals that are unrelated to audio Word Clock signals (which would typically have the same sample rate as the audio stream). 

 

The REF 10 is a pure reference clock generator that can be used to provide an ultra precise reference for master clock generators (like the MC-3+/MC-3+USB) and compatible DACs. 

 

What's interesting about all of this is that the concept of a master and slave is becoming a little bit confusing with 10 MHz clocks and Re-Clocking. It used to be that you would always have one master in a digital audio system that would set the sample rate, and a bunch of slaves, typically all connected via Word Clock. When dealing with the 10 MHz reference, I believe it's important to keep the reference clock mentally separate from the audio clock, because those are independent. 

 

 

Not to be pedantic or picking on your products, but calling it a Master Reference Clock is merely marketing speak as far as I can tell,-the keyword here is reference. In the master/slave relationship, one controls the flow of the others, even it is only setting the "beat" and not truly buss mastering as in the case of async USB. For instance, identical DACs in a studio(say to create multi channel using stereo DACs) will have one as master (uses its clock) and the other is tied to that clock- they are the same frequencies. Picking hairs? Possibly, but people stated they wanted to understand and the continued use of the word "master" is misleading.

 

With this product, as you have noted, it is essentially just an external signal used to synthesize the "master" word clock in lieu of the word clock's internal (clock) oscillator. This same 10MHz reference frequency gets used in other telecommunication systems as well, but is of no value without an additional product designed to accept a 10M reference. Theoretically, this 10M reference could be input to:WD clock, USB and ethernet simultaneously, but I do not know how well it would work.

 

Frankly, 10MHz reference clocks are a rabbet hole with dubious value unless you are using word clock distribution already. Would it up the game of other Mutek, Antelope or other products? Likely, or neither company would make them.

 

http://www.audiotechnology.com.au/pdf/14/at14_word_clock_explained.pdf

[jelt2359]

Thanks! Finally someone answered my question! So it will be beneficial to use my mutec as a master clock via word clock out to my rednet 3, if I add the ref10 to my mutec 3+ USB. 

 

Thank you again

[4est]

3 hours ago, jelt2359 said:

Thanks! Finally someone answered my question! So it will be beneficial to use my mutec as a master clock via word clock out to my rednet 3, if I add the ref10 to my mutec 3+ USB. 

 

Thank you again

 

If it was I you thought said it WOULD be beneficial, then you've read too far into it. Anything sent through ethernet will be reclocked down stream. I doubt it would hurt, and might even help the conversion, but Id put my money on the other side near the DAC. You could simply try the Mutek as is if you have one to see its effects. It may get worse. Adding the REF10 should just make it better, but another 3k better? I dunno...

[pam1975]

1 minute ago, 4est said:

I'd put my money on the other side near the DAC

And what are you thinking about when you say "near the DAC"? @4est

[4est]

1 hour ago, pam1975 said:

And what are you thinking about when you say "near the DAC"? @4est

As I understand it, the Rednet 3 is a spdif>ethernet convertor. The bad ass clocking will(should at least) have a more profound effect on the renderer side than the server. The single most important clocks in audio are at the A>D and D>A- meaning for our purposes, the DAC. There is a lot of (anecdotal)evidence about other clocking having significance, but no one in the know disputes the importance of better clocking(lower jitter) at the final D>A conversion.

 

I must admit that I am not entirely sure I understand the Rednet 3.

[pam1975]

49 minutes ago, 4est said:

As I understand it, the Rednet 3 is a spdif>ethernet convertor. The bad ass clocking will(should at least) have a more profound effect on the renderer side than the server. The single most important clocks in audio are at the A>D and D>A- meaning for our purposes, the DAC. There is a lot of (anecdotal)evidence about other clocking having significance, but no one in the know disputes the importance of better clocking(lower jitter) at the final D>A conversion.

 

I must admit that I am not entirely sure I understand the Rednet 3.

the Mutec MC3+ USB IS the last step of the chain so I must not be understanding something here...that to me is as near the DAC as possible.

or are you just suggesting to get a better DAC for that matter?

[4est]

42 minutes ago, pam1975 said:

the Mutec MC3+ USB IS the last step of the chain so I must not be understanding something here...that to me is as near the DAC as possible.

or are you just suggesting to get a better DAC for that matter?

What DAC?

 

I am sorry if I confused you, but by closer to the dac meant I was referring to the aforementioned Rednet3, which is a toslink/spdif> ethernet converter that requires an endpoint if I understand it. If that is correct, the clocking is likely much more important at that end point than at the Rednet3.

 

As to using this with the Mutek USB>spdif, I am sure it works great. At 4k for the package, it is a pretty expensive D>D converter package. If one is going this route, it might be best ti pick up an Apogee, or Antelope too, and compare. The specs are important, but the phase noise/jitter imparts a signature (they all do) and one would be best off listening. To this day, and it has been years, I miss the digital section of the Weiss DAC2 FW I sold. I imagine I'd swing a deal with Vintage King, and return the one you do not like.

[jelt2359]

Thanks. The Rednet 3 is an AOIP Ethernet to AES/ Spdif device. No need for a separate endpoint. I am currently using the Mutec 3+ USB (AES in) to perform reclocking after the Rednet 3 and before my DAC. 

 

Since my Rednet 3 has no 10mhz clock reference input, and only a word clock input, Id been wondering if it was beneficial to use the Mutec 3+ USB as the external master for the Rednet 3, especially if I add the Mutec Ref10 to this chain as well. 

[4est]

22 minutes ago, jelt2359 said:

Thanks. The Rednet 3 is an AOIP Ethernet to AES/ Spdif device. No need for a separate endpoint. I am currently using the Mutec 3+ USB (AES in) to perform reclocking after the Rednet 3 and before my DAC. 

 

Since my Rednet 3 has no 10mhz clock reference input, and only a word clock input, Id been wondering if it was beneficial to use the Mutec 3+ USB as the external master for the Rednet 3, especially if I add the Mutec Ref10 to this chain as well. 

 

It does not seem clear cut on external clocks. FWIW, the reasons for using these in a studio are much more compelling than simple 2-5 channel reproduction only.

 

The original async USB chime was always to have the clock as close to the converter as possible.with individual clocks for 44.1k and 48k bases right on the DAC circuit board. All the while there is pro audio and some high end manufactures using external clocks and clock references- some super pricey. I almost bought an MC3+ because of my outcomes with DIY clocking for the HiFace Evo , but have been focusing my energy on high rate DSD at present. I'd love to hear the results. Especially if different 10M ref clocks are compared.

[vortecjr]

2 hours ago, jelt2359 said:

Thanks. The Rednet 3 is an AOIP Ethernet to AES/ Spdif device. No need for a separate endpoint. I am currently using the Mutec 3+ USB (AES in) to perform reclocking after the Rednet 3 and before my DAC. 

 

Since my Rednet 3 has no 10mhz clock reference input, and only a word clock input, Id been wondering if it was beneficial to use the Mutec 3+ USB as the external master for the Rednet 3, especially if I add the Mutec Ref10 to this chain as well. 

You could send word clock out of your Mutec 3+ USB to your Rednet 3. Then separately, as needed, you would use a REF 10 into your Mutec 3+ USB.  

[jelt2359]

Thanks, yes that is exactly what I was thinking of doing- I was just not sure if it would be better, since some also say the best clock would be the one right next to the device, which would probably mean the clock internal to the Rednet 3.

 

I'm new to these clock issues, so I'm very easily confused!

[vortecjr]

Only you can tell us if it's better in your system 

[julian.david]

22 hours ago, vortecjr said:

I appreciate your responses. I have one follow up question that I did not think to ask before. Is the USB input also subject to the re-clocking circuit that is influenced by the use of the REF 10?

 

21 hours ago, svart-hvitt said:

In the same vein: Are alle the inputs of the MC-3+USB influenced, for example the AES-EBU input?

 

Yes, all of the inputs of the MC-3+USB (including the USB path) are subject to the re-clocking and will benefit from the REF 10.

[julian.david]

7 hours ago, vortecjr said:

Only you can tell us if it's better in your system 

 

Exactly!

[jelt2359]

OK. Thank you!

[pam1975]

@vortecjrwould you consider having a connector input for an external ref clock on your upcoming ultrarendu?

I believe it's out of question from what I've seen so far, but thought I'd ask

[vortecjr]

24 minutes ago, pam1975 said:

@vortecjrwould you consider having a connector input for an external ref clock on your upcoming ultrarendu?

I believe it's out of question from what I've seen so far, but thought I'd ask

Nothing is out of the question, but no I would not consider it. 

[pam1975]

As I thought Jesus, thank you for confirming.

[mourip]

13 hours ago, jelt2359 said:

Thanks. The Rednet 3 is an AOIP Ethernet to AES/ Spdif device. No need for a separate endpoint. I am currently using the Mutec 3+ USB (AES in) to perform reclocking after the Rednet 3 and before my DAC. 

 

Since my Rednet 3 has no 10mhz clock reference input, and only a word clock input, Id been wondering if it was beneficial to use the Mutec 3+ USB as the external master for the Rednet 3, especially if I add the Mutec Ref10 to this chain as well. 

 

As a data point. I have a Rednet D16 with a Mutec USB +3 following it as a reclocker. I use an Antelope LiveClock as an external wordclock for the D16. I initially used the LC as an external wordclock for the Mutec also but found it did not improve the sound. I think that the internal wordclock of the Mutec is very good and unless you have a lot of cash to burn it might not be economical to try to get a small increase from trying to use an external clock for it. The Rednet device is another story however. It responded very well to the external clock. With my current setup I am getting better sound than I would have ever thought was possible. I am using AES cables between D16/Mutec/DAC.

 

Regardless of how it is used I have found the Mutec to be a really good device and a great value.