Mutec REF 10 Masterclock

[austinpop]

38 minutes ago, auricgoldfinger said:

 

The MC3+ USB does not support DSD.  It converts everything to PCM.

 

Bummer. 

 

Not even DoP, if encoded at source? A DoP stream should look just like PCM 176.8 to a downstream device.

[auricgoldfinger]

1 minute ago, austinpop said:

 

Bummer. 

 

Not even DoP, if encoded at source? A DoP stream should look just like PCM 176.8 to a downstream device.

 

From the Mutec site:  "Converts DSD/DoP streams (64-256) to PCM audio with selectable output clock rate"

 

I never tried it for that reason.  Deal breaker for me.

[austinpop]

Just now, auricgoldfinger said:

 

From the Mutec site:  "Converts DSD/DoP streams (64-256) to PCM audio with selectable output clock rate"

 

I never tried it for that reason.  Deal breaker for me.

 

Ah, pity. Me too.

[julian.david]

On 9/26/2017 at 4:05 PM, SwissBear said:

Thanks for pointing this out. I normally do not feed DSDs to the Mutec and convert them to PCM inside Roon.

BTW, is the MC-3+ USB good at handling DSD -> PCM conversion ?

I've heard from quite a few users that the DSD-PCM conversion in the MC-3+USB is really good. Some customers actually prefer converting to high-res PCM over native DSD, which of course will depend on your DAC and other factors. Nonetheless, I'd definitely give it a shot!

 

Julian

[julian.david]

On 9/26/2017 at 5:18 PM, austinpop said:

 

Bummer. 

 

Not even DoP, if encoded at source? A DoP stream should look just like PCM 176.8 to a downstream device.

 

On 9/26/2017 at 5:21 PM, auricgoldfinger said:

 

From the Mutec site:  "Converts DSD/DoP streams (64-256) to PCM audio with selectable output clock rate"

 

I never tried it for that reason.  Deal breaker for me.

 

The MC-3+USB does pass-through DoP64 via the digital audio interfaces (AES, S/P-DIF) just fine and it even re-clocks the signal along the way. Native DSD (via USB) however is always converted to PCM.

 

You should try it ;-)

 

Julian

[julian.david]

On 9/26/2017 at 1:16 PM, mourip said:

 

Thanks. This is helpful. I also just downloaded the latest version of the Mutec USB manual which is more clear. I think that I have it set properly and will post a photo once I have taken in more coffee and reached my target heart rate. BTW. I am upsampling everything to 192K and so far have turned on the REF10 for my Antelope LiveClock/Rednet D16 and for one of my two Mutec USB re-clockers. The REF10 adds a new level of refinement as I enable it to each device.

 

Have you tried using the REF 10 to externally clock both MC-3+USBs?

 

Julian

[mourip]

6 hours ago, julian.david said:

 

Have you tried using the REF 10 to externally clock both MC-3+USBs?

 

Julian

Hi Julian. Yes. I did a couple of days ago. I have been adding connections systematically so that I can see what difference each new one makes. So far with each new connection I get more refinement ...as I would describe it. The really nice thing is that at the suggestion of jelt2359 I am now taking the wordclock from the second M3USB and feeding my D16 with it. This took the Antelope LiveClock out of the system. I believe that it sounds better even if by a small margin. This is a big win as I no longer need the LiveClock.

 

My next test is to just use one M3USB and the REF10 in the system and see how it sounds. If it sounds the same or better that would be another cost saving. I also want to try taking the wordclock out of the upstream M3USB with both still in the system to see what that changes.

 

My plan is to write this up as a mini-review when done and try to rate the changes according to my ears in my system.

 

[mourip]

Has anyone experimented with using termination plugs on their REF10 outputs?

 

From the manual...

 

"We generally recommend disengaging all clock outputs
that are not used for your given setup to reduce potential
interference as much as possible. Additionally, unused
and disengaged outputs can be fitted with so-called BNC
termination plugs. These are available from retailers with
both 50 and 75 Ω matching both of the REF 10s output
terminations."

 

I do have my unused outputs turned off.

[zoltan]

19 hours ago, mourip said:

Has anyone experimented with using termination plugs on their REF10 outputs?

 

 

Good you reminded me of that as I forgot about it after reading the manual. Now I did a bit of googling and found termination plugs for less than a euro and also for nearly 30 euros each. 
http://cy.rsdelivers.com/product/huber-suhner/65bnc-75-0-7-133ne/huber-suhner-75ω-straight-bnc-yes-rf-terminator/7165003P

 

Also these are about 20 euros:

https://www.telegaertner.com/en/info/catalogue/coax/?IdTreeGroup=12973

 

Do higher quality termination plugs make a difference in our application I wonder? 

[mourip]

 

3 hours ago, zoltan said:

Good you reminded me of that as I forgot about it after reading the manual. Now I did a bit of googling and found termination plugs for less than a euro and also for nearly 30 euros each. 
http://cy.rsdelivers.com/product/huber-suhner/65bnc-75-0-7-133ne/huber-suhner-75ω-straight-bnc-yes-rf-terminator/7165003P

 

Also these are about 20 euros:

https://www.telegaertner.com/en/info/catalogue/coax/?IdTreeGroup=12973

 

Do higher quality termination plugs make a difference in our application I wonder? 

 

I found the same thing online with prices from around $1USD to over $20USD. I think that the main thing is that they should consistently measure exactly 75 ohms (or 50 depending on which output you are terminating) and that they make a secure connection. It is hard to justify $20 when it is easily possible that they are unnecessary sonically or that the ones for $1 could work perfectly well.

[beessy]

Hi

 

i already use XLR et RCA caps on my mc-3+usb devices with good results.

 

I tought to put BNC CAPS instead of BNC terminations

For EMI/RFI reduction, like the bnc cardas caps

 https://www.thecableco.com/Product/BNC-C-SS-Protection-Caps--Pair-

 

no issue for 75ohms or 50ohms matching, just caps

 

Maybe Julian could tell us what is better?

 

 

 

 

[SwissBear]

Thanks to @mourip for the heads-up on these BNC terminations.

The difference with the caps @beessy has found is most probably linked to the fact that BNC terminations will ensure a perfect impedance balance of the electric circuits whereas the caps will not.

What would be useful from @julian.david is to know whether such terminations on unused BNC connectors are important for the proper operation of the Ref-10. Thanks in advance.

[zoltan]

I may have a technical problem with the Ref 10. I switched to one output only as suggested in the manual when I started using it two weeks ago. Later I changed this one output to another and worked fine. Now, I got a second MC3+USB to try if stacking two changes anything with the Ref 10, and I cannot switch any other output back. (Or the one active off).

 

A light starts blinking but if I press the know nothing happens. After a while, the blinking stops and the light goes back to its state before blinking. 

 

I tried pressing a little longer, like 3 seconds but that didn't change anything. Power cycled once too with the back switch also but nothing helped.

Any ideas? May it be faulty?

[mourip]

6 hours ago, zoltan said:

I may have a technical problem with the Ref 10. I switched to one output only as suggested in the manual when I started using it two weeks ago. Later I changed this one output to another and worked fine. Now, I got a second MC3+USB to try if stacking two changes anything with the Ref 10, and I cannot switch any other output back. (Or the one active off).

 

A light starts blinking but if I press the know nothing happens. After a while, the blinking stops and the light goes back to its state before blinking. 

 

I tried pressing a little longer, like 3 seconds but that didn't change anything. Power cycled once too with the back switch also but nothing helped.

Any ideas? May it be faulty?

 

I am having a little trouble following your actual issue but this week I thought that I had a problem also also.

 

As it turns out the front panel is labeled from 1 to 8, left to right however looking from the front the jacks are actually numbered from right to left, 8 to 1. I got confused as it was hard to read the jacks when the unit was in my cabinet and managed to plug in to the incorrect jack. Try checking your connections again.

[zoltan]

8 hours ago, mourip said:

 

I am having a little trouble following your actual issue but this week I thought that I had a problem also also.

1

To put it simply, I cannot switch clock outputs on or off. Regardless what and where is connected which should not matter anyway. The lights don't come on.

[mourip]

3 hours ago, zoltan said:

To put it simply, I cannot switch clock outputs on or off. Regardless what and where is connected which should not matter anyway. The lights don't come on.

 

Bummer. Sounds defective. I would contact Mutec directly or else your vendor. They are very quick to respond. 

 

Good luck!

[SwissBear]

3 hours ago, zoltan said:

To put it simply, I cannot switch clock outputs on or off. Regardless what and where is connected which should not matter anyway. The lights don't come on.

Sorry to read about this. The way you put it, it looks like a HW defect of the selection knob. You should probably contact Mutec directly for this: https://mutec-net.com/kontakt.php

While you were trying to add a second MC-3+ USB in the chain, have you tried to use the WCLK 1-2 out of the first MC-3+ USB in order to feed the second one and check if you could reclock using this external clock signal ?

Not sure if this works, but worth trying in order to avoid being frustrated while the Ref-10 is fixed...

[zoltan]

2 hours ago, SwissBear said:

While you were trying to add a second MC-3+ USB in the chain, have you tried to use the WCLK 1-2 out of the first MC-3+ USB in order to feed the second one and check if you could reclock using this external clock signal ?

1

Thanks, SwissBear. Good idea, I will try that. 

What I tried yesterday was to use the second MC3+ with its own clock, i.e. the first MC3+ was connected to the Ref 10 and the second was using its internal clock for reclocking. Strangely enough, even this improved the SQ clearly. I don't know how and why that can be. I will try your suggestion, too.  

[SwissBear]

Here is an interesting review I found on the German forum. Worth reading IMO. I share the findings of the reviewer, including his remark on fancy cables

https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=de&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.hifistatement.net%2Ftests%2Fitem%2F2119-mutec-ref-10&edit-text=

[SwissBear]

A few observations I made on my own:

 

1. On my main system, which is now MacMini -> sMS-200 Ultra -> tx-USB Ultra -> Mutec MC-3+ USB -> Devialet D900 -> B&W 802D3, with sMS-200, tx-USB and MC-3+ USB clocked by the Ref-10, I observed an improvement when cascading a second MC-3+ USB after the first one (the MacMini, both MC-3+ USB and SOtM devices were powered by a Paul Hynes LPSU). In the same way that the addition of the tx-USB was an improvement but not a game changer, the addition of the second MC-3+ USB is an audible improvement, but at least one order of magnitude lower than the first one.

I can confirm that Pasternack double shielded cables sound very good on this system and allow me to capture most of the benefits of the Ref-10 for a reasonable cost. I would also like to underline the importance of the AES/EBU cable to connect the two MC-3+ USB. When using a low grade cable (Mogami in my case), I noticed a significant degradation compared to other cables. This might be linked to the surgery of the MC-3+ USB power supplies, which considerably increased their transparency.

 

2. On my secondary system, which is MacMini -> Sonore µ-rendu -> Mutec MC-3+ USB -> darTZeel LHC-208 -> Voxativ Zeth, (MacMini, µ-rendu and MC-3+ USB powered by a Paul Hynes LPSU)  I observed an incredible improvement in SQ when connecting the MC-3+ USB to the Ref-10. The Voxativ Zeth which are not reputed for their performance in the bass range, suddenly gained a lot of assertiveness in this field. Added to the other benefits of the Ref-10 which are now well accepted, this was a complete game changer for this installation.

 

3. The question now lies whether to add a second MC-3+ USB to each of these systems. Apart from the cost of such an upgrade, the transformation of brand new devices bears its own risks. Not sure whether it's worth while at this stage. I wish Mutec  (@julian.david) could provide off-the-shelves DC plugged MC-3+ USB, in the same way SOtM does...

 

[mourip]

On 10/2/2017 at 7:57 AM, SwissBear said:

Thanks to @mourip for the heads-up on these BNC terminations.

The difference with the caps @beessy has found is most probably linked to the fact that BNC terminations will ensure a perfect impedance balance of the electric circuits whereas the caps will not.

What would be useful from @julian.david is to know whether such terminations on unused BNC connectors are important for the proper operation of the Ref-10. Thanks in advance.

 

I have some information regarding putting BNC terminating plugs on our REF10s. I spoke to the US rep and he said that the recommendation in the manual was a mistake that would be corrected. They do not feel that adding the terminators will have any effect once that output has been turned off via the front panel.

 

I did ask about the Mutec 3+ USB and was told that it could be helped by a terminator on an unused BNC.

 

I guess that I will try my new 75ohm BNCs on my M3USB :-)

[afrancois]

17 minutes ago, mourip said:

 

I have some information regarding putting BNC terminating plugs on our REF10s. I spoke to the US rep and he said that the recommendation in the manual was a mistake that would be corrected. They do not feel that adding the terminators will have any effect once that output has been turned off via the front panel.

 

I did ask about the Mutec 3+ USB and was told that it could be helped by a terminator on an unused BNC.

 

I guess that I will try my new 75ohm BNCs on my M3USB :-)

Even with simple BNC caps I had a positive result.

[mourip]

43 minutes ago, afrancois said:

Even with simple BNC caps I had a positive result.

 

On REF10 or M3USB?

Thanks.

[afrancois]

51 minutes ago, mourip said:

 

On REF10 or M3USB?

Thanks.

MC3+ USB

 

I still need to order the REF10.

[mourip]

Thanks. Good to know about the M3USB.

 

Now I know what to do with my terminators :-)