Jump to content

Recommended Posts

I made a point in reference to REF10 (pan not intended) in a different thread, comparing it to the upgraded Cybershaft, and Julian suggested I move it here.  Here's his reply:

 

Hi there, 

While it’s true that some of Cybershaft’s latest 10 MHz clocks match the phase noise performance of the REF 10 at 1 Hz offset at a lower price, I think it’s also worth pointing out that these OCXOs are used, recycled oscillators with potentially questionable long-term performance. This is no secret as Cybershaft themselves note it in the fine print of these product pages. We’ve been doing quite a bit of research in this field at MUTEC prior to the launch of the REF 10. Our main developer has inside knowledge of the second-hand oscillator market and how these oscillators are handled in the process. So for us at MUTEC there were and still are a lot of reasons why we stay away from these predominantly Chinese-sourced recycled OCXOs.  

 

Sure, there’s a 2-year warranty but a performance decay and functional unreliability may easily slip in unnoticed over time. Buying a REF 10 guarantees a brand-new, carefully tested German-made OCXO that will provide excellent performance for many years to come. I personally believe there’s a real value in having the peace of mind that your newly bought equipment performs at its peak. But ultimately the great thing about competition is that everybody can make those decision on their own depending on their preference and budget.

 

BTW, this discussion is probably better suited to take place in the REF 10 thread but I still thought it'd be worth chiming in here.

 

Hope this helps,

Julian

Stereo

[Genelec 1032C x 2 + 7360 x 2] <== [MC3+USB x 3 <-- REF10 SE120] <== [AERIS G2] <== [EtherRegen x 3]
Chain switchable to [Genelec 8331 x 2 + 7350]


Surround

[Genelec 1032C x 3 + 8431 x 2  + 7360 x 2] <== [MiniDSP U-DIO8] <== [Mac Mini] 

Link to comment

You make very compelling points, Julian. Thank you.

 

 Since I’m in the market, I’d like to ask a few public questions that might be to the benefit on others:

 

  1. Your literature mentions the square signal and steel chassis as contributing factors to the REF10 performance. How influential are they? Crudely speaking, 5%, 10%? 
  2. How many years for continuous use can one expect from the REF10? Roughly of course.
  3. Is there a point in time in which a re-calibration is in order? Is that a service Mutec offers?
  4. How far apart can I place the REF10 from the slave? I have 2 systems that could benefit from the REF10. One would demand a 14-meter word clock cable, though…

 

Thanks in advance!

Stereo

[Genelec 1032C x 2 + 7360 x 2] <== [MC3+USB x 3 <-- REF10 SE120] <== [AERIS G2] <== [EtherRegen x 3]
Chain switchable to [Genelec 8331 x 2 + 7350]


Surround

[Genelec 1032C x 3 + 8431 x 2  + 7360 x 2] <== [MiniDSP U-DIO8] <== [Mac Mini] 

Link to comment

Any good Samaritan who can measure the REF10's height, including the support feet, and length, including the connectors? Mutec's website fails to share that information.

 

Thanks...

 

 

Stereo

[Genelec 1032C x 2 + 7360 x 2] <== [MC3+USB x 3 <-- REF10 SE120] <== [AERIS G2] <== [EtherRegen x 3]
Chain switchable to [Genelec 8331 x 2 + 7350]


Surround

[Genelec 1032C x 3 + 8431 x 2  + 7360 x 2] <== [MiniDSP U-DIO8] <== [Mac Mini] 

Link to comment
Just now, austinpop said:

 

I had to eyeball it the best I could for the front to back...

 

Height (with feet):       3.75 inches

depth - from front fascia (not counting knob) to the ends of the BNC connectors:       12.5 inches

Many thanks!!

Stereo

[Genelec 1032C x 2 + 7360 x 2] <== [MC3+USB x 3 <-- REF10 SE120] <== [AERIS G2] <== [EtherRegen x 3]
Chain switchable to [Genelec 8331 x 2 + 7350]


Surround

[Genelec 1032C x 3 + 8431 x 2  + 7360 x 2] <== [MiniDSP U-DIO8] <== [Mac Mini] 

Link to comment

Delighted for you that you're' so thrilled. 

Try AB/X . If you can still hear the difference then strike gold big time. James Randi offers $1 million for any audiophile who can prove expensive cables sound better. Hurry up, he's getting old...

Stereo

[Genelec 1032C x 2 + 7360 x 2] <== [MC3+USB x 3 <-- REF10 SE120] <== [AERIS G2] <== [EtherRegen x 3]
Chain switchable to [Genelec 8331 x 2 + 7350]


Surround

[Genelec 1032C x 3 + 8431 x 2  + 7360 x 2] <== [MiniDSP U-DIO8] <== [Mac Mini] 

Link to comment

 

I’m going to ask a wild-eyed question here: has anyone compared the MC+REF to Eitr? 

 

I’m about the pull the trigger on a REF10 and my benchmark is the Eitr, which sounds fu*&ing amazing.

I wonder how good a fight a $200 David gives to a $4,800 Goliath…

 

Stereo

[Genelec 1032C x 2 + 7360 x 2] <== [MC3+USB x 3 <-- REF10 SE120] <== [AERIS G2] <== [EtherRegen x 3]
Chain switchable to [Genelec 8331 x 2 + 7350]


Surround

[Genelec 1032C x 3 + 8431 x 2  + 7360 x 2] <== [MiniDSP U-DIO8] <== [Mac Mini] 

Link to comment

Thanks amigo...Words of wisdom; nothing but the truth.

 

But I meant the sound of the Mutec combo (REF feeding MC) vs. the sound of the Eitr.

 

 

Stereo

[Genelec 1032C x 2 + 7360 x 2] <== [MC3+USB x 3 <-- REF10 SE120] <== [AERIS G2] <== [EtherRegen x 3]
Chain switchable to [Genelec 8331 x 2 + 7350]


Surround

[Genelec 1032C x 3 + 8431 x 2  + 7360 x 2] <== [MiniDSP U-DIO8] <== [Mac Mini] 

Link to comment
6 hours ago, sam1000 said:

Sorry Amigo. As explained above, they are different products. I hope you are not a shill for Schiit or just a troll. Having said that, I'm sure you can compare these products and return the one you don't like and let us know  how the comparison went. Also, try to A/B X them. Who knows, you could be the first winner of  James Randi's 1 million dollars. Cheers.

Thank you for the banal advice. I'm none the wiser.

 

The rest was well explained by mourip. 

 

(And don't go running to James Randy with every piece of equipment you own. His challenge is confined to cables, as I explicitly stated above.) 

Stereo

[Genelec 1032C x 2 + 7360 x 2] <== [MC3+USB x 3 <-- REF10 SE120] <== [AERIS G2] <== [EtherRegen x 3]
Chain switchable to [Genelec 8331 x 2 + 7350]


Surround

[Genelec 1032C x 3 + 8431 x 2  + 7360 x 2] <== [MiniDSP U-DIO8] <== [Mac Mini] 

Link to comment

Here's a more somber review:
https://m.bonedo.de/artikel/einzelansicht/mutec-mc-3-smart-clock-usb-und-ref10-test.html

Translated from German:

To test setup: I have a song with many tracks on eight stereo stems in the DAW divided and SSL SSLLink SX on my SSL matrix given, summed and added the mix on my Crane Song HEDD and this resumed. HEDD and Alphalink were digitally connected to my RME UFX +, SSL via MADI and CraneSong via AES / EBU. That was all fix - but what was not fixed was the clock supply on all three devices. And they looked like this:

Setup 1: The Clock of the RME was only in the SSL, HEDD was only AES / EBU.

Setup 2: The Crane Song clocks the RME and the SSL in parallel.

Setup 3: The MC-3 + USB clocks the RME and the SSL in parallel.

Setup 4: Just like setup 3, but now the MC-3 + USB gets a 10-MHZ reference from the REF 10. 

Sonically, the mix gets better with each setup! Especially the depths, especially the kick, is more precise, faster and even a little bit deeper. But even the stereo stage is clearly sorted and individual elements are placed more firmly, so swim less in Panorama. In short, everything seems clearly "tidier".

Setup 3 and 4 sound the best. However, the differences are not so huge, you have to listen to it for a while. That nevertheless the REF 10 makes another small, but subtle difference, I would not have expected! Whether it is worth the quite high extra charge, everyone must decide for themselves - the MC-3 + USB, however, in my opinion, but worth every euro

 

Stereo

[Genelec 1032C x 2 + 7360 x 2] <== [MC3+USB x 3 <-- REF10 SE120] <== [AERIS G2] <== [EtherRegen x 3]
Chain switchable to [Genelec 8331 x 2 + 7350]


Surround

[Genelec 1032C x 3 + 8431 x 2  + 7360 x 2] <== [MiniDSP U-DIO8] <== [Mac Mini] 

Link to comment

 

30 minutes ago, julian.david said:

 

Haven't forgotten you folks in this regard, but we've been on the road for AES New York. I'll have those answers for you early next week!

 

Thanks Julian.

 

REF10 user guide and an old post of yours give  the answer for question (4)

 

How far apart can I place the REF10 from the slave? I have 2 systems that could benefit from the REF10. One would demand a 14-meter word clock cable, though…

 

Answer: Not to exceed 2 meters, the shorter the better. You had very good results with 0.5 meter at one show. 

 

The other 3 questions are still pending of course.

Stereo

[Genelec 1032C x 2 + 7360 x 2] <== [MC3+USB x 3 <-- REF10 SE120] <== [AERIS G2] <== [EtherRegen x 3]
Chain switchable to [Genelec 8331 x 2 + 7350]


Surround

[Genelec 1032C x 3 + 8431 x 2  + 7360 x 2] <== [MiniDSP U-DIO8] <== [Mac Mini] 

Link to comment
  • 4 weeks later...

Greetings, virtual friends…

 

I’ve pulled a lot of information off this thread—and foisted myself on a few people—so it’s time to share my experience and observations.

 

Setup: HiBy R6 coax => MC3+USB [<- REF10] = > Active subwoofer

 

At first, I was sorely disappointed. After 24 hours of warm-up, I kicked the tires only to discover I could barely hear a difference. Nagging doubts crept in. Should I return it? Obviously, a nice chunk to re-line my pockets, but where was the promised glory?

 

48 hours later, enter the impact. A shaper musical outline was deftly drawn; minute details were accentuated; a wider, deeper and taller soundstage came into being. To my delight, the effect grew more profound with every passing day, although incrementally so. Those tighter mid basses and crystal-clear highs didn’t fail to leave an impression. 

 

As many others have pointed out, the REF10’s contribution—subtle as it may—is addictive. Of course, in terms of sheer value, the MC3+USB outmatches the reference clock with ease, but the REF10 puts on a finishing touch that music lovers would find hard to give up on, let alone ignore. 

 

It’s not all sugar and spices though. With some tracks, the REF10 can be too revealing, the highs approaching the glare territory. I doubt any sound engineer ever anticipated such a stark exposure—skin blemishes laid bare under a merciless sun. But those are rare.

 

Since I also received a 2nd MC3+USB, I haphazardly experimented with a few other setups:

 

** MC3USB x 2 sans REF10 didn’t do much for me. 

** MC3USB x 2 + REF10 was a tad too thin to my liking, and the threat of glare loomed ever larger.

 

All in all, MC3USB x 1 + REF10 hits the spot for me.

Stereo

[Genelec 1032C x 2 + 7360 x 2] <== [MC3+USB x 3 <-- REF10 SE120] <== [AERIS G2] <== [EtherRegen x 3]
Chain switchable to [Genelec 8331 x 2 + 7350]


Surround

[Genelec 1032C x 3 + 8431 x 2  + 7360 x 2] <== [MiniDSP U-DIO8] <== [Mac Mini] 

Link to comment
  • 1 month later...
2 hours ago, soundlogic said:

Thank You Elan120. Can you clarify "highly undesired"? Undesired sonically or detrimental to the electronics? Thanks.

Along those lines, short of me going back and re-reading this entire thread, are there any cost effective 50 ohm cables that can be highly recommend ? My 75 ohm purchased cables were based on my use of the REF-10 with MC3+USB, which I have removed at this time.

 

Jitter.... 

Stereo

[Genelec 1032C x 2 + 7360 x 2] <== [MC3+USB x 3 <-- REF10 SE120] <== [AERIS G2] <== [EtherRegen x 3]
Chain switchable to [Genelec 8331 x 2 + 7350]


Surround

[Genelec 1032C x 3 + 8431 x 2  + 7360 x 2] <== [MiniDSP U-DIO8] <== [Mac Mini] 

Link to comment
  • 4 months later...

 

41 minutes ago, SlowikPL said:

About the BNC 75 Ohm cables.

 

I had the opportunity to hear  the dCs - Vivaldi DAC , C.E.C 3.0 source and Mutec MC-3 USB and as master Clock Metec Ref 10.

The used Clock cables BNC Ware Shuynata Sigma Clock 75. And the sound was really good. Very Airly , with very detailed Bass and full body midrange. 

After this I tried another BNC cable. ( had only one PCs - and this connected from Mutec MC-3+ USB to Vivaldi ) This was Synergistic Research Tesla LE D3 Digital (BNC) This Cable totally Killed the upgrade of the Clock in this setup. 

Also tried those Clock - Upgrade on my own dCs- Rossini ( with even greater magnitude results!!) Seems the Rossini gained more from this Clock Upgrade then Vivaldi. Also here was Synergistic Research Tesla LE D3 Digital (BNC) Totally destructive in my setup. 

 

 

Have anybody compared the BNC - cables Like Shuynata Sigma Clock 75 , Habst BNC 75 ohm reinsilber or others ? In my opinion there are on the market more goodies than this expensive Shuynata? ! Or not ?

 

As far as I understand, the REF10 sends out an analog, square wave that the receiver uses to time its operation. The mechanism depends on the flip between the bottom and upper region of the wave (when the wave either drops or ascends, it opens and shuts a virtual gate on the receiver side).

 

Unless the cable in question is flawed, I can’t conceive how it can affect that mechanism. Mind you, those ref clocks are installed in mission-critical satellites, and I’m pretty darn sure basic cables are employed (I inquired once with a military engineer). 

 

You say you hear the difference? Run an honest AB/X. If you can still tell which cable is which, kindly offer a theory as to why those expensive cables do a better job in transmitting a repetitive analog square wave. I’m brimming with curiosity.

Stereo

[Genelec 1032C x 2 + 7360 x 2] <== [MC3+USB x 3 <-- REF10 SE120] <== [AERIS G2] <== [EtherRegen x 3]
Chain switchable to [Genelec 8331 x 2 + 7350]


Surround

[Genelec 1032C x 3 + 8431 x 2  + 7360 x 2] <== [MiniDSP U-DIO8] <== [Mac Mini] 

Link to comment
  • 7 months later...
4 minutes ago, MarkS said:

I have looked through this entire thread.  It is incredibly interesting.  Can someone with a dCS Vivaldi system please tell me if they think adding the Mutec REF 10 as the reference clock for the Vivaldi Master Clock was an upgrade?  If I get the Mutec, I would also "clock" my EtherRegen with the Mutec reference clock.  It might be worth a try.

 

Separately, I am using four 1.25M Nordost Valhalla 2 75ohm BNC cables to word clock my three box Vivaldi system (dac, clock, and upsampler).  I see a lot of back and forth about Habst cables and also about cable length.  I recall reading something about 1.25M having some magic to it for digital cables, but I could be wrong.  Where does one get these Habst cables and are they what people think are best for clock cables?  If I get the Mutec, I would need to clock cables (one to the dCS Clock and one to the EtherRegen).  I am particularly interested to hear from @austinpop regarding the Habst bnc clocking cables.  He has provided me with invaluable advice.

 

Happy holidays everyone!!

 

Hello Mark, 

 

First off, that "magic" number you refer to has no bearing on clock signal transmission. I don't recall the exact application in which it does make a difference, but it's easy enough to look up. 

 

I'm sure you want to hear otherwise, but coax cables don't, and can't, make any difference to the signal, unless out of spec or poorly made. 

 

As oppose to the ref clock under discussion, or power supplies for example, there is no coherent theory as why digital cables would make a difference. What we encounter is mostly mumbo-jumbo spewed by manufacturers and swallowed up wholesale by some gullible audiophiles. Case in point, AB/X tests between high end and cheap cables consistently fail to show a difference. 

 

Happy new year! 

Stereo

[Genelec 1032C x 2 + 7360 x 2] <== [MC3+USB x 3 <-- REF10 SE120] <== [AERIS G2] <== [EtherRegen x 3]
Chain switchable to [Genelec 8331 x 2 + 7350]


Surround

[Genelec 1032C x 3 + 8431 x 2  + 7360 x 2] <== [MiniDSP U-DIO8] <== [Mac Mini] 

Link to comment
1 hour ago, Tand said:

 

Hi Mark S

 

I am using a "half stack" - a Vivaldi dac and clock with a Mutec REF10 with Habst BNC.

 

First I was very happy when upgrading my Vivaldi dac with the Vivaldi clock. But it was when adding a REF10 it got really interesting. As I recall I thought the REF10 upgrade was much better than first adding the Vivaldi clock on its own. When Habst BNC cables where used compared to generic BNC it added a sense of focus, calmnes and better dynamics which connects me closer to the music.

 

Next step for me in january will be to upgrade my REF10 to REF10 SE-120 with -120 dBc/Hz😃.

 

Happy holidays!

 

 

Does Mutech offer an upgrade path?

 

BTW, it wasn't too long ago that both Mutech and Cybershaft swore anything over -115/16 was inaudible.

And now with have this...:) 

Stereo

[Genelec 1032C x 2 + 7360 x 2] <== [MC3+USB x 3 <-- REF10 SE120] <== [AERIS G2] <== [EtherRegen x 3]
Chain switchable to [Genelec 8331 x 2 + 7350]


Surround

[Genelec 1032C x 3 + 8431 x 2  + 7360 x 2] <== [MiniDSP U-DIO8] <== [Mac Mini] 

Link to comment
1 hour ago, Tand said:

 

Hi auricgoldfinger and @LowMidHigh

 

I have not seen any announcement from Mutec but as I read about the SE-120 in here and WBF, I sent a mail to Mutec and was able to reserve one of the oscillators they had incoming. Very happy for this as I understand there is a very small numbers available right now. 

 

 

 

Can you share the uncharge?

Stereo

[Genelec 1032C x 2 + 7360 x 2] <== [MC3+USB x 3 <-- REF10 SE120] <== [AERIS G2] <== [EtherRegen x 3]
Chain switchable to [Genelec 8331 x 2 + 7350]


Surround

[Genelec 1032C x 3 + 8431 x 2  + 7360 x 2] <== [MiniDSP U-DIO8] <== [Mac Mini] 

Link to comment
  • 1 month later...

Does it actually gives a discernable bump? Back in the day, both Mutec and the Japanese enterprise swore anything below - 116 makes no difference.... 

Stereo

[Genelec 1032C x 2 + 7360 x 2] <== [MC3+USB x 3 <-- REF10 SE120] <== [AERIS G2] <== [EtherRegen x 3]
Chain switchable to [Genelec 8331 x 2 + 7350]


Surround

[Genelec 1032C x 3 + 8431 x 2  + 7360 x 2] <== [MiniDSP U-DIO8] <== [Mac Mini] 

Link to comment
  • 5 months later...
1 hour ago, MarkS said:

Thanks. 

 

Mark,

I suggest you consider the whole cable upgrade carefully. Those companies don't publish any measurements to substantiate their claims, nor do they conduct AB/X to decisively demonstrate the superiority of thier products. It stands to reason they would do one of the either, if not both, to boost sales and allay thier critics. Ergo, you should exercise caution.

(Know that one massive player in that marketplace was caught cheating in demos more than once.) 

As for the 10Hz signal, it's sole purpose is to trigger a gate on the receiving side. A cable may pick up interferences that would inject jitter into the receiver. However, if the environment isn't saturated with EMR, and the cable is short, any properly shielded cable would do. Belden builds good cables and so does Canare and many others.

Lastly, for the price of some of those "hi-end" cables, you could purchase a 2nd ER and create a chain with perceivable aural improvement. Food for thought. 

P.S., not looking to duke out the cable thing. Just to give a fellow man another perspective. For the believers, enjoy your cables and all the great music.

Stereo

[Genelec 1032C x 2 + 7360 x 2] <== [MC3+USB x 3 <-- REF10 SE120] <== [AERIS G2] <== [EtherRegen x 3]
Chain switchable to [Genelec 8331 x 2 + 7350]


Surround

[Genelec 1032C x 3 + 8431 x 2  + 7360 x 2] <== [MiniDSP U-DIO8] <== [Mac Mini] 

Link to comment
  • 1 year later...
14 minutes ago, Pro Jules said:

Mutex can supply clock cables now. 
 

why not get one from them?

 

i got two with my Ref 10

Linke? Spec? Photo?

Stereo

[Genelec 1032C x 2 + 7360 x 2] <== [MC3+USB x 3 <-- REF10 SE120] <== [AERIS G2] <== [EtherRegen x 3]
Chain switchable to [Genelec 8331 x 2 + 7350]


Surround

[Genelec 1032C x 3 + 8431 x 2  + 7360 x 2] <== [MiniDSP U-DIO8] <== [Mac Mini] 

Link to comment

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now



×
×
  • Create New...