Mutec REF 10 Masterclock

[pam1975]

this is an amazing discovery guys, thanks!

I was already planning to use the Mutec Ref 10 with my Mutec MC3+ USB but now that I now I can use the Ref 10 also with the sMS200 ultra, this will be an amazing outcome I'm sure!

My Yggdrasil will be happy.

 

@Confused

- I am sort of on the same path than you  

[pam1975]

I will go for ref 10 on a SMS 200 ultra and my current Mutec MC3+ USB. 

i have the ref 10 on pre-order already, waiting for news from Mutec.

I will share impressions here although I won't be able to measure anything  

[pam1975]

yes @austinpop saw your previous comment on that. Just to be clear, ie SOtM's tests, was the 1m cable the better one?

[pam1975]

thanks for clarifying !

[pam1975]

7 hours ago, svart-hvitt said:

Your and SOTM's claim of 30 centimeters is as extraordinary as Antelope's 250 meters claim.

@austinpop did not *claim* anything. He's asking a question.

 

You on the other hand talk about Antilope's claim that connection stability degrades after 250m. 

He is talking about SQ as a function of cable length, not connection stability.

[pam1975]

Good to hear Hollywood tested cable length on world clocks. In this case, absolutely, said boutique shop cannot compete.............

 

i agree with you - let's see if Mutec has an expert opinion on this.

but then again, Mutec is a boutique shop, so what shall we do then?

[pam1975]

I understood exactly the same as you @austinpop, that is until @4est came crashing our little party

the ref 10 is definitely called by Mutec a "master reference" clock in their email correspondence with me...

 

[pam1975]

7 minutes ago, julian.david said:

Now if you add a REF 10 to this system, the only thing that changes is that the Re-Clocking within the MC-3+/MC-3+USB is now based on this ultra precise external clock signal of the REF 10 to increase the quality of the re-clocking process affecting the sound quality of the entire system. But everything else stays the same and the REF 10 is technically not the "master" of the system in the traditional sense of dictating the sample rate. 

makes sense, thanks @julian.david 

But *what if* the Ref 10 is now also connected to the network player?

how does this change the master/slave concept (if at all)?

 

[pam1975]

1 minute ago, 4est said:

I'd put my money on the other side near the DAC

And what are you thinking about when you say "near the DAC"? @4est

[pam1975]

49 minutes ago, 4est said:

As I understand it, the Rednet 3 is a spdif>ethernet convertor. The bad ass clocking will(should at least) have a more profound effect on the renderer side than the server. The single most important clocks in audio are at the A>D and D>A- meaning for our purposes, the DAC. There is a lot of (anecdotal)evidence about other clocking having significance, but no one in the know disputes the importance of better clocking(lower jitter) at the final D>A conversion.

 

I must admit that I am not entirely sure I understand the Rednet 3.

the Mutec MC3+ USB IS the last step of the chain so I must not be understanding something here...that to me is as near the DAC as possible.

or are you just suggesting to get a better DAC for that matter?

[pam1975]

@vortecjrwould you consider having a connector input for an external ref clock on your upcoming ultrarendu?

I believe it's out of question from what I've seen so far, but thought I'd ask

[pam1975]

As I thought Jesus, thank you for confirming.

[pam1975]

1 minute ago, svart-hvitt said:

Would you add a list of compatible streamers (without DAC) as well?

 

:-)

+1!

[pam1975]

thanks @julian.david but what is considered long here? over 1m, 2m, 10m?

[pam1975]

thanks

[pam1975]

yes @flummoxe, I know this since I have the dCS bridge and it would only accept it via a Mutec MC3+ USB as external wordclock.

There is no direct input for a ref clock.

 

The mutec MC3+ USB changes absolutely nothing to SQ when used as external wordclock vs using internal clock of the dCS network bridge. Maybe the Ref 10 would increase overall system SQ but it's hard to say.

 

[pam1975]

39 minutes ago, Confused said:

This is indeed a confusing subject!  The first point here is that the Mutec REF10 is a 10MHz reference clock, so is not a word clock and it does not have a word clock output.  If my understanding is correct, you could use something like the Mutec MC3+ between the REF10 and the dCS.  The Mutec MC3+ can accept a 10MHz reference clock input and it's word clock output can then feed the dCS.  (Did you say something about not wanting multiple boxes in the chain?) 

 

I say in the above 'this is my understanding', the reason being is that I am pretty sure I have got this right, but there are some subtleties with synchronising clock rates and so on, so I would like confirmation that such a set up would indeed work trouble free in a practical home set up.

 

I have a reasonably local dealer that stocks dCS, the guy I know there has expressed is opinion that they have been a little disappointed with the performance of the Network Bridge but that they have achieved excellent performance using it with a an external word clock.  One suggestion he had was to use the Network Bridge with maybe a second hand dCS master clock, they appear on sale more often than you think. 

 

Of course in your case, you could go for the REF10, a Mutec MC3+USB, and use this with you existing sMS-200Ultra, with or without the clock mod.   Too many options and too many boxes however you look at this one!

 

I have both dCS network bridge and Mutec MC3+ USB feeding it as external word clock. There is absolutely zero difference if I use the Mutec as external word clock vs using the internal clock of my dCS network bridge. Of course adding the ref 10 to the Mutec MC3+ may increase overall sound quality of my set-up but it's a pricey leap of faith.

I repeated this test at least 10 times, had other audiophile friends do it with me and no-one heard any discernible difference. 

Hope that helps.

[pam1975]

2 minutes ago, Confused said:

That is indeed interesting, here's hoping someone lends you a REF10 so you can try it!  What your observation suggests is that the performance of the clock Network Bridge is very similar to that in the Mutec, which would seam reasonable.  So out of interest, have you ever tried running the Netwrork Bridge to the Mutec MC3 as a 'reclocker', then to the DAC.  In a way, this is a similar concept to those that stack two or three MC3's.  It might be an interesting thing to try, and cost free if you have a spare XLR cable to hand?

I haven't done this test yet (Mutec as reclocker) as it seemed a bit counter-intuitive to me initially but that is something I'm willing to do, I have the necessary cable for that. I'll let you know how this turns out...

[pam1975]

I honestly don't believe the trifecta could surpass my set-up, but it's just a belief, nothing to substantiate it. I did have a microrendu with LPS1 before, and the difference was significant.

 

What decided me for the dCS bridge: I use Tidal, Roon and...Spotify Family (nobody's perfect!) which my wife, kids and I all use for the great play-lists they have and the fantastic app.

Today Spotify isn't hi res but I'm still counting on their move in the future.

Using it with SMS 200 ultra, you'd use Librespot for Spotify which I don't trust is a sustainable solution, I insisted on having a Spotify-Connect ready solution.

So given my use case, the dCS bridge was perfect. Music server (Nimitra), dCS network bridge (Mutec as word clock), running directly into my Kii Three active speakers. That's it. No more DAC, preamp, amp. Just 4 boxes and the best sounding system I've ever had, by far.

 

Sorry this is a Ref 10 thread  back to topic now...

[pam1975]

@Confused did you consider at the time buying the sCLK-OCX10 clock from sotm vs the Ref10?

 

are you happy with the performance of your Ref 10?

I'm hesitant between the 2 clocks for my Mutec MC3+ USB which clocks my dCS network bridge.

Thanks

[pam1975]

On 23/04/2018 at 10:14 AM, Confused said:

 

 

I believe that a REF10 versus sCLK-OCX10 shootout has been planned, so maybe once that one is completed I will discover that I have made the wrong choice!  Meanwhile though, yes, I am very happy with the REF10.  I added it to the system and it just simply made everything sound better, more realistic, dynamic, just all good.  

thanks a lot for this comprehensive answer, really appreciate it @Confused