Mutec REF 10 Masterclock

[auricgoldfinger]

6 minutes ago, austinpop said:

 

Why do DSD conversion at all? If your DAC handles DSD natively or over DoP?

 

The MC3+ USB does not support DSD.  It converts everything to PCM.

[auricgoldfinger]

1 minute ago, austinpop said:

 

Bummer. 

 

Not even DoP, if encoded at source? A DoP stream should look just like PCM 176.8 to a downstream device.

 

From the Mutec site:  "Converts DSD/DoP streams (64-256) to PCM audio with selectable output clock rate"

 

I never tried it for that reason.  Deal breaker for me.

[auricgoldfinger]

1 hour ago, Confused said:

If I am completely honest, I’m not 100% sure, I’ll confirm details when it turns up!  I think SOtM usually supply a D-Link DGS-105, so that’s what I’m expecting.

 

For me, the switch is a complete punt, I can’t fathom why it should make any difference.  indeed, I did try the Aqvox switch a while ago and in my system I could not detect any improvement, so I sent it back.  I do note that others have reported good results with the SOtM switch, so I was happy to pay the relatively small amount of extra cash just because I am intrigued enough to want to try it for myself.  Slightly crazy I would admit.

 

Will you be re-clocking your switch with one of your SOtM sCLK endpoints?  That is the key.

[auricgoldfinger]

14 minutes ago, ElviaCaprice said:

Power supplies aside.  If so,  it sounds like the REF 10 is just better designed than the OCX10. 

 

The difference could be a result of the REF 10 square wave vs. the OCX10 sine wave.

[auricgoldfinger]

2 minutes ago, Johnseye said:

 

Do you know what this means exactly, what the implications are, pros and cons?

 

I have no idea.  IIRC, others have said the square wave theoretically has greater dynamic range.  I have never seen any detailed explanation or documentation to back up that assertion.

 

In my simplistic, non-technical world, I always saw it as an analog vs. digital question.  Many people are always trying to get the analog sound from their digital equipment.

[auricgoldfinger]

16 minutes ago, Confused said:

According to Mutec:

 

Generates a very high slew-rate square wave signal for superior lock precision compared to the sine wave signals used by competing brands

 

Based on our knowledge of the importance of a clock signal’s rise time (steepness of the edge) for the audio performance, we chose a very high slew-rate, lowest ripple square wave signal for the REF 10. In contrast to the low slew-rate sine wave signals used by competing brands, this leads to superior lock precision and therefor minimized jitter at the receiving end. As a result, connected devices like DACs (D/A converters) and audio clocks will sound even better.

 

What is the competing rationale from SOtM for the sine wave?  If the slew rate is really the determining factor, why wouldn't SOtM have also followed that path.  They must have different ideas.

[auricgoldfinger]

From the SOtM site:

 

As many of the audiophiles know, the clock signal is an angled square digital signal, but the sCLK-OCX10 produces a pure analog sine wave of 10 MHz, and this sinusoidal clock signal is the method adopted for the best clock product because of the very less noise than the angled square digital clock signal. In order to implement this, the sCLK-OCX10 consists of only analog circuit.

 

Now we can have a proper discussion. 

[auricgoldfinger]

This is not the first time barrows has been involved in derailing this thread. 

 

I agree it is time to end the discussion or move it elsewhere.

[auricgoldfinger]

1 hour ago, sam1000 said:

Did folks receive  Habst cable from group buy? any early impressions? I did not pull the trigger since I had no chance to hear it. cheers..

 

Daniel of Habst told me it will be another 1-5 weeks before the cables are produced and ready to ship.  They were already very busy and received more CA group buy orders than expected.

[auricgoldfinger]

1 hour ago, flkin said:

I ordered a couple of the Habst usb cables under the CA group buy and Daniel said they were already on the way.

 

Did you order 75-ohm or 50-ohm?  I ordered the 50-ohm, and they have had some issues getting it produced to their specs.

[auricgoldfinger]

Big review of BNC cables by Jay at Audio Bacon

 

https://audiobacon.net/2018/08/11/the-audiophiles-short-list-the-best-digital-coaxial-cables/

 

[auricgoldfinger]

In case anyone is in the market for a cable upgrade...

 

https://www.usaudiomart.com/details/649455547-sotm-dcblbnc50-digital-cable-1-meter/?utm_campaign=new-classified-ad&utm_source=notification&utm_medium=email

 

[auricgoldfinger]

6 hours ago, sam1000 said:

How are people paying to Habst from USA? I tried "Zelle" transfer from Wells Fargo, but Habst said, the app to receive money is not available in Europe. Tried Tranferwise, and they ask for my username and password for my bank ? There's no way I'm going to share my bank credentials to a third party. Are folks simply wiring the money to Habst? 

 

If you don't want to give up banking information, a wire transfer is the only option.

 

This company offers reasonable retail Forex rates and transfers:  https://www.ofx.com/en-us/

[auricgoldfinger]

1 hour ago, MarkS said:

I have looked through this entire thread.  It is incredibly interesting.  Can someone with a dCS Vivaldi system please tell me if they think adding the Mutec REF 10 as the reference clock for the Vivaldi Master Clock was an upgrade?  If I get the Mutec, I would also "clock" my EtherRegen with the Mutec reference clock.  It might be worth a try.

 

Separately, I am using four 1.25M Nordost Valhalla 2 75ohm BNC cables to word clock my three box Vivaldi system (dac, clock, and upsampler).  I see a lot of back and forth about Habst cables and also about cable length.  I recall reading something about 1.25M having some magic to it for digital cables, but I could be wrong.  Where does one get these Habst cables and are they what people think are best for clock cables?  If I get the Mutec, I would need to clock cables (one to the dCS Clock and one to the EtherRegen).  I am particularly interested to hear from @austinpop regarding the Habst bnc clocking cables.  He has provided me with invaluable advice.

 

Happy holidays everyone!!

 

Here is the link to the Habst clock cables:  http://habst.de/digital-xlr-rca-bnc.html  You can email the proprietor, Daniel, through the web contact form for more information.

 

As you have read on this thread and possibly elsewhere, clock cables affect the performance and sound quality of the master clock.  The Habst cable is an excellent choice, but there are other options as well.  I can personally vouch for the Habst cables as I use them in my system.

 

People have generally found the shortest possible length is preferable for clock cables.  A major advantage of the Habst cable is that it can be grounded to an unused BNC output on the REF 10, which significantly improves sound quality.  I ground mine to a Synergistic Research Active Ground Block for even better results.  You could probably do the same with your Entreq. 

 

 

[auricgoldfinger]

2 hours ago, MarkS said:

Anybody know anything about this one??

 

 

 

I've never seen that manufacturer, but if you're looking at that price point, you might want to review this post:

 

Mutec has not officially announced REF 10 SE model, but they have been sighted in the wild.  You might want to reach out to Mutec if you're interested.

[auricgoldfinger]

6 hours ago, justubes said:

How do you ground the Ref10?

 

Have you tried chassis ground, from what i hve checked, the grounds of each output of the Ref10 checks to be isolated from my tests with a meter.

 

It's not a chassis ground.  Daniel has always been reluctant to provide details about his cable construction, but I believe the secondary, shorter cable is used to ground the shielding of the primary (signal) cable.  Attaching the secondary cable to an unused BNC output or external grounding device enables the ground, thereby lowering the noise floor.  The perceived result is more detail and better spatial cues.

 

[auricgoldfinger]

30 minutes ago, justubes said:

What i meant is that using another unused bnc is not griunded directly with the next bnc output which the cable is connected to.

 

Each bnc is isolated from each other.

 

So meanimg not a true or best ground...

 

I think you're missing the point of how cable shielding works.  The fact that signal and grounding cables are connected to separate, isolated outputs is irrelevant.  The "signal" is being grounded, not the chassis.  The REF 10 itself is properly grounded.  Based on my experience chassis grounding properly designed linear power supplies, as long as you're not experiencing ground loops, a chassis ground is likely to provide little to no audible benefit .

[auricgoldfinger]

15 hours ago, Tand said:

 

Next step for me in january will be to upgrade my REF10 to REF10 SE-120 with -120 dBc/Hz😃.

 

Has Mutec made an official announcement about an upgrade path, or even officially announced the REF 10 SE-120 is available for purchase?

[auricgoldfinger]

1 hour ago, Tand said:

 

Hi auricgoldfinger and @LowMidHigh

 

I have not seen any announcement from Mutec but as I read about the SE-120 in here and WBF, I sent a mail to Mutec and was able to reserve one of the oscillators they had incoming. Very happy for this as I understand there is a very small numbers available right now. 

 

 

 

Will you be getting a brand new unit or sending yours to Mutec for an oscillator and case upgrade?

[auricgoldfinger]

5 hours ago, 6aardvark9 said:

Holy crap, just got a quote from Mutec for upgrading from REF10 to REF10 SE-120 >>> €2,400 !!

 

What exactly do you get for €2,400?  Does this include a new case in addition to the improved clock?  Any other internal changes?

[auricgoldfinger]

32 minutes ago, 6aardvark9 said:

 

I presume the case is the same, since I have seen a picture of the SE-120. Regarding other internal changes beyond the clock, I have no idea... I subsequently asked for the retail price of the SE-120 version to have an idea whether the upgrade is worthwhile (ie. is the price of the REF10 (€3,500) plus the upgrade (€2,400) less than the price of a new REF10 SE-120. I'm awaiting an answer from Mutec.

 

The SE-120 case is different.  It has a grounding post on the back for people who want to earth ground the case.

[auricgoldfinger]

2 hours ago, MarkS said:

 

Anyone know how to actually buy these Habst bnc clock cables.  The company doesn't answer my inquiries.

 

They're a bit difficult to deal with.  I have always used this email to correspond and place orders:  [email protected]

[auricgoldfinger]

5 hours ago, dstubked said:

The iso regen obviously does not take in an external clock. Does this defeats the purpose of reclocking with the ref10?

 

I would try the IsoRegen and see if you like what it does for the sound.  I never saw a need for mine once I inserted a tX-USBultra into the chain.