Confused Posted May 18, 2017 Share Posted May 18, 2017 So how does it compare to this? https://www.dcsltd.co.uk/products/vivaldi-clock/ I just have to ask because the dCS Clock is a cool £10K in the UK. Plus, looking at the dCS spec sheets I cannot see any areas it appears superior to the Mutec MC3+USB, let alone the Ref 10. Am I missing something or is the dCS perhaps just not the value for money option? Windows 11 PC, Roon, HQPlayer, Focus Fidelity convolutions, iFi Zen Stream, Paul Hynes SR4, Mutec REF10, Mutec MC3+USB, Devialet 1000Pro, KEF Blade. Plus Pro-Ject Signature 12 TT for playing my 'legacy' vinyl collection. Desktop system; RME ADI-2 DAC fs, Meze Empyrean headphones. Link to comment
Confused Posted May 18, 2017 Share Posted May 18, 2017 3 hours ago, k-man said: I believe you're missing something. In the dCS ecosystem the new Mutec REF 10 will be increasing the accuracy of the Vivaldi clock with the 10Mhz connection. So not really an AB comparison i.e. a Vivaldi DAC won't connect directly to this new clock. It also won't look nice next to the dCS 'curves' Yes, I think I have a lot to learn regarding clocks, although I at least get the point about the curves. So what you are saying is that the Ref 10 is a more accurate clock than the dCS Master clock, but that the Ref 10 is incompatible with dCS products and could not be used with, say, the dCS Vivaldi Upsampler or DAC? So why the incompatibility? This I what I don't fully understand. As I said, much to learn! Windows 11 PC, Roon, HQPlayer, Focus Fidelity convolutions, iFi Zen Stream, Paul Hynes SR4, Mutec REF10, Mutec MC3+USB, Devialet 1000Pro, KEF Blade. Plus Pro-Ject Signature 12 TT for playing my 'legacy' vinyl collection. Desktop system; RME ADI-2 DAC fs, Meze Empyrean headphones. Link to comment
Confused Posted May 21, 2017 Share Posted May 21, 2017 Many thanks to k-man, modmix, and Julian to chipping in with responses to my earlier query. The use of external clocks looks like one of those subjects where you think there are a couple of things you need to learn and understand, but once you start to understand a couple of things you discover that it is a far more complex topic and you really do have a lot to learn! Also thanks to Romaz for chipping in with his listening impressions from Munich, which takes me back to the dCS and my thoughts now. The point is that last year I listened to the dCS Vivaldi Upsampler as the front end for a Devialet D800, this was using the Upsampler with and without the optional dCS Master clock. The Upsampler alone was excellent, but I felt that it was with the Master Clock that the real magic started to happen. It is difficult to describe the difference with clocking added, but someone else listening to the Vivaldi made the comment that the music was 'more engaging' with the Clock in use, and at the time I knew exactly what he meant. Certainly I can read Romaz's SQ observations of the Mutec Clock three posts back, and see some very clear parallels with observations I made when listening with the dCS clock added. OK, if you compare the cost of the Mutec Ref 10 to the dCS Vivaldi clock, the Mutec does look like an absolute bargain considering it's specs and potential performance. There is one thing that troubles me a little though, and that is the thought of having a €1K Mutec MC3+USB, which itself has an excellent clock, and then improving it with a €3.5K external clock. I am quite sure this would work and I am quite sure that there would be sound quality benefits, but I can't help thinking that to maximise the performance potential of the Ref 10 then maybe it needs to feed something that is a step up from the Mutec MC3+USB. It is not that I think the Mutec MC3+USB is lacking in any way, in fact I think the opposite, the Mutec MC3+USB is for sure the very best €1K I have spent on audio kit in a very long time, it just that if you are trying to squeeze out that last 1 or 2% of performance, maybe the Ref 10 deserves to be feeding something better? Windows 11 PC, Roon, HQPlayer, Focus Fidelity convolutions, iFi Zen Stream, Paul Hynes SR4, Mutec REF10, Mutec MC3+USB, Devialet 1000Pro, KEF Blade. Plus Pro-Ject Signature 12 TT for playing my 'legacy' vinyl collection. Desktop system; RME ADI-2 DAC fs, Meze Empyrean headphones. Link to comment
Confused Posted May 21, 2017 Share Posted May 21, 2017 I'm kind of thinking aloud today, but to put my last post a different way, if I could get somewhere close to the performance of the dCS Vivaldi Upsampler + Clock (£24k in the UK), with something like a PC with HQPlayer, sMS-200Ultra, Mutec MC3+USB & Ref 10 Clock, then I would be very happy indeed, and I do actually suspect this is possible. But is there a better way? Windows 11 PC, Roon, HQPlayer, Focus Fidelity convolutions, iFi Zen Stream, Paul Hynes SR4, Mutec REF10, Mutec MC3+USB, Devialet 1000Pro, KEF Blade. Plus Pro-Ject Signature 12 TT for playing my 'legacy' vinyl collection. Desktop system; RME ADI-2 DAC fs, Meze Empyrean headphones. Link to comment
Confused Posted May 21, 2017 Share Posted May 21, 2017 2 minutes ago, k-man said: What DAC do you have? I think I can see what you are thinking! However, I am running a Devialet 1000 Pro. Windows 11 PC, Roon, HQPlayer, Focus Fidelity convolutions, iFi Zen Stream, Paul Hynes SR4, Mutec REF10, Mutec MC3+USB, Devialet 1000Pro, KEF Blade. Plus Pro-Ject Signature 12 TT for playing my 'legacy' vinyl collection. Desktop system; RME ADI-2 DAC fs, Meze Empyrean headphones. Link to comment
Confused Posted May 21, 2017 Share Posted May 21, 2017 3 minutes ago, romaz said: I would suggest you get the sMS-200ultra with the master clock option so that you can extend the benefits of the REF 10 to that device as well. To be able to synchronize that device with the Mutec should result in a very nice further improvement. Thanks romaz, that does look like a very interesting option. I have been following the 'A novel way....' thread with great interest, so I get the point, however I had not yet worked out the possibility of feeding the sMS-200Ultra with a Ref 10. That's quite a compelling idea, I wonder! And even if it did not work out for reasons as yet unknown, you would still have a Ref 10 fed Mutec to keep you happy. Windows 11 PC, Roon, HQPlayer, Focus Fidelity convolutions, iFi Zen Stream, Paul Hynes SR4, Mutec REF10, Mutec MC3+USB, Devialet 1000Pro, KEF Blade. Plus Pro-Ject Signature 12 TT for playing my 'legacy' vinyl collection. Desktop system; RME ADI-2 DAC fs, Meze Empyrean headphones. Link to comment
Confused Posted May 21, 2017 Share Posted May 21, 2017 5 hours ago, romaz said: It will absolutely work with the sMS-200ultra. I have already verified this with SOtM. To be able to synchronize the clocks on both the Ultra and the MC3+USB will be huge. Thinking about this, why do you need the sMS-200Ultra, which from what I understand is basically a sMS-200 with better clock? If the original sMS-200 can be modified to accept an external clock, is this not the best 'bang for your buck' solution? romaz 1 Windows 11 PC, Roon, HQPlayer, Focus Fidelity convolutions, iFi Zen Stream, Paul Hynes SR4, Mutec REF10, Mutec MC3+USB, Devialet 1000Pro, KEF Blade. Plus Pro-Ject Signature 12 TT for playing my 'legacy' vinyl collection. Desktop system; RME ADI-2 DAC fs, Meze Empyrean headphones. Link to comment
Confused Posted June 6, 2017 Share Posted June 6, 2017 6 minutes ago, sadekkhalifa said: @julian.david when it will be available for orders? And I would like to know if Ref10 able to connect to sMS-200Ultra with master clock that has 6-9v connector Yes, I would also be very interested in this. It might be useful if we had some kind of summary as to the basic uses, benefits and compatibility of the REF10. From my perspective, I am a huge advocate of the Mutec MC3+USB. The Mutec is by far the best 900 Euro's I have spent on audio kit in a long time. Then we get the the 'add on' REF 10. Now, the idea of adding something to the Mutec that improves performance is highly compelling, that is until you realise that the 'add on' is over three times the cost of the original MC3+USB. So a struggle a bit psychologically with this. OK, high quality clocks are expensive, I get this. It is just that somehow I feel that if I'm buying a 3600 Euro product I need to do more with it than connect to a 1000 Euro reclocker. Maybe the MC3+ REF 10 would provide excellent results well worth the extra cash, I do not know, but it is in part a psychological consideration. Somehow for me if I was connecting say a £3K clock to a £3K dCS Network Bridge, this would seem reasonable, but a £3K clock to a £900 USB to AES/EBU converter I do struggle with! (Although as posted earlier, it would appear that the REF 10 is not compatible with dCS products, which is a shame) On other threads there have been reports of folks getting good results using the SOtM clock board to run Ethernet switches, endpoints, USB regen type products. Is there any potential to use the REF 10 in a similar way? For me, I could well imagine a set up with the REF 10 connected to my Ethernet switch, a sMS-200Ultra and the Mutec. Is this sensible from a sound quality / performance perspective, would it even work? It is perhaps worth mentioning that I bought the Mutec MC3+USB as a 'bit of a punt', mindful that I could order with a 30 day return policy. However, when you get to the £3K + price point, 'taking a punt' seams a little reckless! So I guess another question is will the REF 10 be available for demo in the UK, or will it be available similar to the MC3+USB, purchase with a 30 day return policy? (maybe we need a couple roving demo unit we can pass around the UK or Europe, and one for US and elsewhere) Windows 11 PC, Roon, HQPlayer, Focus Fidelity convolutions, iFi Zen Stream, Paul Hynes SR4, Mutec REF10, Mutec MC3+USB, Devialet 1000Pro, KEF Blade. Plus Pro-Ject Signature 12 TT for playing my 'legacy' vinyl collection. Desktop system; RME ADI-2 DAC fs, Meze Empyrean headphones. Link to comment
Confused Posted June 6, 2017 Share Posted June 6, 2017 3 hours ago, sadekkhalifa said: @julian.david when it will be available for orders? And I would like to know if Ref10 able to connect to sMS-200Ultra with master clock that has 6-9v connector Another thought here. If the sMS-200Ultra is simply a sMS-200 with a better clock, then I would have thought a sMS-200 (not Ultra) with the external clock mod would be all you need? Windows 11 PC, Roon, HQPlayer, Focus Fidelity convolutions, iFi Zen Stream, Paul Hynes SR4, Mutec REF10, Mutec MC3+USB, Devialet 1000Pro, KEF Blade. Plus Pro-Ject Signature 12 TT for playing my 'legacy' vinyl collection. Desktop system; RME ADI-2 DAC fs, Meze Empyrean headphones. Link to comment
Confused Posted June 7, 2017 Share Posted June 7, 2017 1 hour ago, julian.david said: We are taking pre-orders already and it will be shipping very soon. Contact the MUTEC HQ directly or one of our distributors please. As some other folks mentioned, the REF 10 will work great with the SOtM sMS-200Ultra if you have the additional sCLK-EX board that gives you the 10 MHz compatible input. We're actually great fans of the folks at SOtM and had dinner with them in Munich. There will most likely be a few devices to play with at MUTEC soon so we can provide full support for compatibility related questions. My understanding is that the sMS-200Ultra is essentially a sMS-200 with a sCLK-EX clock board included internally? So are you suggesting that an additional (external) sCLK-EX board is required to get the 10 MHz compatible input? Windows 11 PC, Roon, HQPlayer, Focus Fidelity convolutions, iFi Zen Stream, Paul Hynes SR4, Mutec REF10, Mutec MC3+USB, Devialet 1000Pro, KEF Blade. Plus Pro-Ject Signature 12 TT for playing my 'legacy' vinyl collection. Desktop system; RME ADI-2 DAC fs, Meze Empyrean headphones. Link to comment
Confused Posted June 7, 2017 Share Posted June 7, 2017 49 minutes ago, Keith_W said: The short answer is, it's complicated. Clocks have to be placed as close to the DAC as possible. This is because the jitter performance suffers the more interfaces get in the way. If you had clocks with equal performance, the clock placed next to the DAC will perform better than the same clock placed externally. Furthermore, the performance of the external clock depends on the type of PLL (phase lock loop) in your DAC. Using an external clock may or may not increase the performance of your DAC. It comes down to the performance of the external clock, the performance of the clock in your DAC, the design of the PLL, the number of interfaces the external clock has to traverse, and even the quality of the cable connecting the external clock to your DAC*. (* this is something that even objectivists won't disagree with! It needs to be 75 Ohm impedance, and both clock output and DAC clock input need to be designed within spec, otherwise jitter performance suffers) I my case I would not be considering connecting an external clock to the DAC (I have a Devialet amp/DAC, with zero provision for an external clock) This remains an interesting point you make though. To make sure I understand this correctly, if you had a system with say a REF 10 clock, feeding both an sMS-200Ultra 'end point' as well as a Mutec MC3+USB, to optimise you would need to make sure all cabling and connections are per the 75 Ohm spec, plus it would be important to keep these cables as short as is practically possible, in particular to the Mutec MC3+USB? (which in my case would be the 'last clock before the DAC'). Windows 11 PC, Roon, HQPlayer, Focus Fidelity convolutions, iFi Zen Stream, Paul Hynes SR4, Mutec REF10, Mutec MC3+USB, Devialet 1000Pro, KEF Blade. Plus Pro-Ject Signature 12 TT for playing my 'legacy' vinyl collection. Desktop system; RME ADI-2 DAC fs, Meze Empyrean headphones. Link to comment
Confused Posted June 9, 2017 Share Posted June 9, 2017 On 07/06/2017 at 4:56 PM, austinpop said: Julian, I'm still trying to understand the world of master clocks. In the scenario of the Ref 10 providing the reference to the SOtM Ultra boxes, how short does the 50ohm (BNC to SMB) cable between the Ref 10 and the Ultra (sMS-200ultra/tX-USBultra) need to be? Everything I'm reading about master clocks cautions that even if you start out with a world-class master clock, the effect of the cable length usually renders that advantage moot. Obviously, the proof will be in the pudding (listening), but can you comment on this critical dependency on cable length, and whether it can be mitigated? Yes, I too am interested in some clarity here. To be honest, I am reading stuff on other threads in this forum where folk have achieved excellent results adding various clocks in the chain before the DAC. (see the 'front end' known as 'the full Romaz') Then we have other posts providing a note of warning with respect to master clocks and some indication clock implementation may actually be detrimental to performance. Away from the purely theoretical discussions, I could easily imagine myself buying a sMS-200Ultra to feed the Mutec MC3+USB I already own. This alone should be a reasonable 'front end'. Then I would have the possibility to add the REF 10 to act as clock for both the sMS-200Ultra and the Mutec MC3+USB. The question is, would better results be achieved simply using the REF 10 to clock the MC3+USB alone, and avoiding using the Ref 10 to run the sMS-200Ultra as this would be counterproductive? Windows 11 PC, Roon, HQPlayer, Focus Fidelity convolutions, iFi Zen Stream, Paul Hynes SR4, Mutec REF10, Mutec MC3+USB, Devialet 1000Pro, KEF Blade. Plus Pro-Ject Signature 12 TT for playing my 'legacy' vinyl collection. Desktop system; RME ADI-2 DAC fs, Meze Empyrean headphones. Link to comment
Confused Posted June 9, 2017 Share Posted June 9, 2017 2 hours ago, austinpop said: No. Opposite. The SQ dropped going from 0.3m to 1m. 0.15m should sound lush then.? Although equipment layout would start to get tricky. Windows 11 PC, Roon, HQPlayer, Focus Fidelity convolutions, iFi Zen Stream, Paul Hynes SR4, Mutec REF10, Mutec MC3+USB, Devialet 1000Pro, KEF Blade. Plus Pro-Ject Signature 12 TT for playing my 'legacy' vinyl collection. Desktop system; RME ADI-2 DAC fs, Meze Empyrean headphones. Link to comment
Confused Posted June 9, 2017 Share Posted June 9, 2017 3 hours ago, pam1975 said: I will go for ref 10 on a SMS 200 ultra and my current Mutec MC3+ USB. i have the ref 10 on pre-order already, waiting for news from Mutec. I will share impressions here although I won't be able to measure anything Keep us updated! It looks like a few of us are interested in this one. Windows 11 PC, Roon, HQPlayer, Focus Fidelity convolutions, iFi Zen Stream, Paul Hynes SR4, Mutec REF10, Mutec MC3+USB, Devialet 1000Pro, KEF Blade. Plus Pro-Ject Signature 12 TT for playing my 'legacy' vinyl collection. Desktop system; RME ADI-2 DAC fs, Meze Empyrean headphones. Link to comment
Confused Posted June 13, 2017 Share Posted June 13, 2017 Many thanks to the various contributors to this thread over the last few days, all I can say is that I am learning much about the world of audio clocks, reference clocks, word clocks etc. Good stuff! However, I have a question. In my set up I am using a Mutec MC3+USB to feed the DAC (In my case Devialet's 'ADH Core') via AES. My understanding is that AES includes a clock signal. So, if I have the REF 10 providing the reference to the Mutec, I am then (presumably) feeding the DAC (ADH) with a very accurately clocked feed. Will the Devialet's internal clock benefit from this feed or effectively use the clock in this feed? Or does the Devialet's internal clock (presumably less accurate) basically take precedence in the end. This question may extend to other DACs with AES input, or indeed DACs with AES and word clock input. One comment re the proposed compatibility list. My understanding is that if a device has a word clock input but does not have a reference input, this is not compatible with the REF 10. However, if you use the REF 10 to feed a Mutec MC3 or MC3+USB, then you could use the MC3's word clock output to feed another device with word clock input. Will this work in all cases? Or could we also benefit from a compatibility list for devices compatible with the MC3's word clock output? svart-hvitt 1 Windows 11 PC, Roon, HQPlayer, Focus Fidelity convolutions, iFi Zen Stream, Paul Hynes SR4, Mutec REF10, Mutec MC3+USB, Devialet 1000Pro, KEF Blade. Plus Pro-Ject Signature 12 TT for playing my 'legacy' vinyl collection. Desktop system; RME ADI-2 DAC fs, Meze Empyrean headphones. Link to comment
Confused Posted June 14, 2017 Share Posted June 14, 2017 I posted a question yesterday that I think was not totally clear in my own post, and then got a little lost due to subsequent posts on other topics. Anyway, I would be interested in some clarity on the subject, so I will try again. My understanding is that AES protocol includes a clock signal. So if you have a REF 10 providing the reference to a Mutec MC3+USB, which then feeds a DAC via AES input, you are then (presumably) feeding the DAC with a very accurately clocked feed thanks to the REF 10 and MC3. Will the DAC's internal clock benefit from this feed and effectively use the super accurate clock in this feed? Or does the DAC's internal clock (presumably less accurate) basically take precedence in the end, hence nullifying the benefit of the REF 10 & Mutec MC3? svart-hvitt 1 Windows 11 PC, Roon, HQPlayer, Focus Fidelity convolutions, iFi Zen Stream, Paul Hynes SR4, Mutec REF10, Mutec MC3+USB, Devialet 1000Pro, KEF Blade. Plus Pro-Ject Signature 12 TT for playing my 'legacy' vinyl collection. Desktop system; RME ADI-2 DAC fs, Meze Empyrean headphones. Link to comment
Confused Posted June 22, 2017 Share Posted June 22, 2017 6 hours ago, JohnSwenson said: 1) integer multiple of a word clock, DACs frequently have two of these, one for each of the sample rate families. 2) clock used for "processing" not related directly to sample frequencies 3) reference for a frequency synthesizer (which may be producing #2 frequencies) Very few DACs actually use word clocks any more. Most of them use some form of #2 clock. Windows 11 PC, Roon, HQPlayer, Focus Fidelity convolutions, iFi Zen Stream, Paul Hynes SR4, Mutec REF10, Mutec MC3+USB, Devialet 1000Pro, KEF Blade. Plus Pro-Ject Signature 12 TT for playing my 'legacy' vinyl collection. Desktop system; RME ADI-2 DAC fs, Meze Empyrean headphones. Link to comment
Confused Posted June 22, 2017 Share Posted June 22, 2017 6 hours ago, JohnSwenson said: As discussed in this thread a high frequency clock can have at least three different "uses". 1) integer multiple of a word clock, DACs frequently have two of these, one for each of the sample rate families. 2) clock used for "processing" not related directly to sample frequencies 3) reference for a frequency synthesizer (which may be producing #2 frequencies) Very few DACs actually use word clocks any more. Most of them use some form of #2 clock. I was a little confused when I first read this. in point 1, 'integer multiple of a word clock' you state 'DACs frequently have two of these', then you state 'very few DACs actually use word clocks any more'. Am I correct in interpreting this as that point 1 is more generally referring to older DAC designs, with more modern DAC designs being typically per point 2? Windows 11 PC, Roon, HQPlayer, Focus Fidelity convolutions, iFi Zen Stream, Paul Hynes SR4, Mutec REF10, Mutec MC3+USB, Devialet 1000Pro, KEF Blade. Plus Pro-Ject Signature 12 TT for playing my 'legacy' vinyl collection. Desktop system; RME ADI-2 DAC fs, Meze Empyrean headphones. Link to comment
Confused Posted June 22, 2017 Share Posted June 22, 2017 6 hours ago, JohnSwenson said: Both USB and S/PDIF inputs have their own clocks which run their respective chips. The outputs from these fill a FIFO in the FPGA, clocked by their own clocks. The samples are read from the FIFO using the output of the synthesizer. The FPGA reads information from the receiver and sets the synthesizer to the correct frequency for the sample rate being received. The FPGA keeps track of the FIFO, if it is getting too full or too empty it changes the output frequency of the synthesizer by a tiny amount to keep the FIFO around half full. This means that the overall average sample rate is controlled by the input source, the quality of the clock generating the output stream is determined by the reference to the synthesizer. Thus a better reference (such as the Ref10) will lower the phase noise of the output data. OK - This is the bit that really interests me! I am in the position that adding any kind of external clock or clock reference to my DAC is not going to be a practical prospect. In my case I am running dual mono Devialet amplifiers, so modifying these to accept some kind of external clock would require some serious modification work and a lot of specific expertise. Maybe it could be done, and I would be fascinated if anyone has any insight into this, but for now I am considering this as not a practical option. So, this effectively leaves me, and many others, as someone with a DAC that will not accept a word clock or external clock reference. However, my understanding is that if I feed the DAC by it's preferred AES input, the clock signal is imbedded the AES feed and the DAC has the job of 'recovering' this clock. It is this interface between the clock in the feed to the DAC and the DAC itself that interests me. I am presuming that it should generally be a case of the better and more accurate the clock in the feed is, the better the DAC will ultimately perform. Pure speculation now, but I am assuming this could be very DAC / system dependant? From my own subjective experience I believe this to be true with the Devialet DAC / ADH. As an example I have listened to a Devialet D800 with a dCS Vivaldi Upsampler, both with and without the optional dCS 'Master Clock', I thought it sounded better with the clock. Plus, I run my own Devialet's with a Mutec MC3+USB via AES. This sounds a lot better than anything I have fed the Devialet via USB. So subjectively I have some experience this stuff works, and I can see there is some hard science behind this. What I do not know is how big an improvement might be achieved by adding the REF10 to the Mutec. This will clearly improve the clock accuracy in the feed to the DAC, but does this definitively result in an improvement in the DAC performance? svart-hvitt 1 Windows 11 PC, Roon, HQPlayer, Focus Fidelity convolutions, iFi Zen Stream, Paul Hynes SR4, Mutec REF10, Mutec MC3+USB, Devialet 1000Pro, KEF Blade. Plus Pro-Ject Signature 12 TT for playing my 'legacy' vinyl collection. Desktop system; RME ADI-2 DAC fs, Meze Empyrean headphones. Link to comment
Confused Posted July 12, 2017 Share Posted July 12, 2017 15 hours ago, takeniteasy3 said: What I'm really asking is if my dac has no clock input,then I assume I am just floggin a dead horse over and over again at even thinking a the Ref 10 would improve things as even the Mutec site says Provdiing you have a compatible DAC,which to me means some type of clock input that bypasses the dacs clock. I too would like some clarity regarding this point. Although there is some very good information if you read back through the last few posts in this thread. (the best stuff from page 7) The key points being how the DAC extracts the clock from the S/PDIF feed. I run a Devialet amp, so effectively I have am in the same situation, with no word clock or reference clock input. In addition to this, I while back I did discuss the differences between sources with one of the Devialet designers. He more or less stated that the Devialet was 'source agnostic', the Devialet is doing the clocking and so the influence of the source itself is minimal. To be honest, this is not my experience. For example, if I play a CD on my 'mid price' Blu-ray player vis S/PDIF to the Devialet, it sounds obviously much worse than feeding the identical music via mixroRendu / Mutec MC3+USB. I am convinced as I can be (obviously subjectively) that the better sound quality is resulting from the excellent reclocking from the Mutec MC3+USB. That said, I would like to properly understand the reasons for this, because if the Devialet (DAC) clock is in charge, then I do not understand why the sound quality differences between digital sources should be so large. Or to put it another way, I am convinced that the clock in whatever is before the before the DAC matters. To take this a step further, the very best thing I have listened to with a Devialet is the dCS Vivaldi Upsampler with it's 10k 'Master Clock', and it was better with the clock. So there is definitely some goodness coming from decent clocking before the DAC, I just wish I understood it a little better. Windows 11 PC, Roon, HQPlayer, Focus Fidelity convolutions, iFi Zen Stream, Paul Hynes SR4, Mutec REF10, Mutec MC3+USB, Devialet 1000Pro, KEF Blade. Plus Pro-Ject Signature 12 TT for playing my 'legacy' vinyl collection. Desktop system; RME ADI-2 DAC fs, Meze Empyrean headphones. Link to comment
Confused Posted July 12, 2017 Share Posted July 12, 2017 On 11/07/2017 at 7:59 AM, julian.david said: Hi all, I've been a bit quiet around here because we've been working hard to finish up all the documentation about the REF 10. I'm excited to share that this has now all been completed and we've just launched the REF 10 product page on the MUTEC website. The REF 10 is available for pre-order through our international distributors now and will be shipping at the end of the month. Some first production units are already out with reviewers and lucky customers who placed their orders at High End Munich. We have a ton of information up on the web that hopefully will help you understand all the effort that we've poured into the REF 10 and how you can harness that in your setup. Julian I have to say that the product page with the compatible products list and links is excellent. Good work! Running through the various products though, I could not help but wonder again about the dCS Vivaldi Master clock. OK, I understand the difference between this and a 'Reference' clock now. The problem I do have though is with the concept that a product that is generically a 'hifi clock' that retails at £10k, can be improved with Mutec's £3.5k reference. Or to put this another way, if I was splashing out £10k on a clock, I would hope that it's own clock reference was pretty much state of the art. Taking this a step further, if you use say the Ref10 with a Mutec MC3, you then have a Ref10 standard word clock that you could use with dCS products. Do we know for sure that this would be better than dCS's Vivaldi clock? The MC3 and Ref 10 combo would be comfortably less than half the price of the dCS Vivaldi clock, do we know that the Mutec combo would outperform the dCS. (I know they would look 'different', but that's another story if you like the wavy dCS look) Any thoughts? Windows 11 PC, Roon, HQPlayer, Focus Fidelity convolutions, iFi Zen Stream, Paul Hynes SR4, Mutec REF10, Mutec MC3+USB, Devialet 1000Pro, KEF Blade. Plus Pro-Ject Signature 12 TT for playing my 'legacy' vinyl collection. Desktop system; RME ADI-2 DAC fs, Meze Empyrean headphones. Link to comment
Confused Posted July 12, 2017 Share Posted July 12, 2017 59 minutes ago, julian.david said: Hi there, I really don't want to get into a big discussion about "value for money" and I'm definitely not going to start bashing the pricing philosophies of other manufacturers. So I will just leave things with a general statement that there really isn't a linear, proportional relationship between price and technical performance that you could rely on. This is particularly true the more expensive a product gets and it's by no means limited to the Hi-Fi market. Is a Starbucks coffee really that twice as good as a coffee that cost half as much? Probably not, but people still buy it. So the best thing to do is to look at technical specs of a product, but also the other relevant aspects that may impact your purchasing decision (looks, features, warranty, brand image/status) and decide what's the best bang for the buck from your personal perspective. Julian Hi Julian, I absolutely agree with your points, but that said, it is not quite how I was thinking about this issue. Let's put it this way, in terms of the key specifications from some of your 'rivals', I cannot find anything that I think would enable me to make a properly informed decision. Windows 11 PC, Roon, HQPlayer, Focus Fidelity convolutions, iFi Zen Stream, Paul Hynes SR4, Mutec REF10, Mutec MC3+USB, Devialet 1000Pro, KEF Blade. Plus Pro-Ject Signature 12 TT for playing my 'legacy' vinyl collection. Desktop system; RME ADI-2 DAC fs, Meze Empyrean headphones. Link to comment
Confused Posted July 12, 2017 Share Posted July 12, 2017 @seeteeyou - yes, I can only agree, cirtainly my own experience is totally consistent with what you are stating. A remarkably thorough post by the way! This still leaves me with what I am trying to better understand. I have taken a look at the information posted previously regarding how a DAC will generate the clock from that in the SPDIF feed. What I am not clear about is the relationship between the performance of the clock and whatever else in the DAC and how well clocked / phased or whatever the SPDIF feed might be. OK, one can try to borrow different front end kit to establish how product A works with DAC B, and so on. However, I would like to get a better idea of the fundamental SPDIF feed / DAC interface with respect to the clock in the signal, to get a better idea of what kit to pursue to try. Basically it is not easy to get demos of some of this kit, so I'm looking for some technical pointers to use to narrow down options. Or to put this another way, I suspect that using a REF 10 with my existing MC3+USB to feed the Devialet will yield good results, but I'm still not comply clear why this should be the case. Windows 11 PC, Roon, HQPlayer, Focus Fidelity convolutions, iFi Zen Stream, Paul Hynes SR4, Mutec REF10, Mutec MC3+USB, Devialet 1000Pro, KEF Blade. Plus Pro-Ject Signature 12 TT for playing my 'legacy' vinyl collection. Desktop system; RME ADI-2 DAC fs, Meze Empyrean headphones. Link to comment
Confused Posted July 12, 2017 Share Posted July 12, 2017 23 minutes ago, k-man said: Not sure why you would repeatedly mention the stratospheric Vivaldi clock and its 10k price point. It's simply because dCS and the Mutec MC3+USB are the only 'clocks' that I have any recent direct experience with. Thats all! Oh, and the Vivaldi clock is on Julian's 'compatible products' list, which did prompt my thoughts earlier today. Windows 11 PC, Roon, HQPlayer, Focus Fidelity convolutions, iFi Zen Stream, Paul Hynes SR4, Mutec REF10, Mutec MC3+USB, Devialet 1000Pro, KEF Blade. Plus Pro-Ject Signature 12 TT for playing my 'legacy' vinyl collection. Desktop system; RME ADI-2 DAC fs, Meze Empyrean headphones. Link to comment
Confused Posted July 14, 2017 Share Posted July 14, 2017 1 hour ago, limniscate said: I'm very interested to hear how the Mutec Ref 10 sounds with the SOtM gear. +1. This should be very interesting indeed. It will be great to see the first Ref 10 out in the wild! Windows 11 PC, Roon, HQPlayer, Focus Fidelity convolutions, iFi Zen Stream, Paul Hynes SR4, Mutec REF10, Mutec MC3+USB, Devialet 1000Pro, KEF Blade. Plus Pro-Ject Signature 12 TT for playing my 'legacy' vinyl collection. Desktop system; RME ADI-2 DAC fs, Meze Empyrean headphones. Link to comment
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