Mutec REF 10 Masterclock

[jelt2359]

To use this with the SMS200Ultra, would you need to feed it with a signal from the Mutec 3+ USB? Or can you go direct Ref10 -> SMS200 Ultra?

[jelt2359]

Will the ref10 come with an option to use external lps supplies? Or would I have to mod this myself/ with my dealer's help like with the 3+ USB if I were to pursue this option?

[jelt2359]

Some other questions for audiophile (not pro audio) use. 

 

1) Does this mean that everytime I change to a song with different sample rate (as you can imagine, happens a lot with streaming), I have to check and fiddle with the sample rate settings on the Ref10 + 3+ USB, before I get the proper clocking?

 

2) Given that it now has LPS, does it mean we need to specify the voltage we want, when ordering?

[jelt2359]

I'm thinking of using this in conjunction with a mutec, then using mutec wck out to my rednet 3. Does that sound like a good idea, or should I only use this with the mutec?

 

Still not sure what are the differences of wck in (on rednet) vs what the mutec has. 

[jelt2359]

38 minutes ago, austinpop said:

 

Julian, I'm still trying to understand the world of master clocks. In the scenario of the Ref 10 providing the reference to the SOtM Ultra boxes, how short does the 50ohm (BNC to SMB) cable between the Ref 10 and the Ultra (sMS-200ultra/tX-USBultra) need to be?

 

Everything I'm reading about master clocks cautions that even if you start out with a world-class master clock, the effect of the cable length usually renders that advantage moot.

 

Obviously, the proof will be in the pudding (listening), but can you comment on this critical dependency on cable length, and whether it can be mitigated?

Where have you seen this? I'd be surprised if there's an actual logical reason for this.

[jelt2359]

Cable lengths aside, I'd like to ask about the mutec 3+ USB and ref10 combination being used as a word clock to my Rednet 3. Will this be beneficial? Or should I just use the mutec pair as a reclocker after the Rednet 3 without using it as a word clock reference as well?

[jelt2359]

Thanks! Finally someone answered my question! So it will be beneficial to use my mutec as a master clock via word clock out to my rednet 3, if I add the ref10 to my mutec 3+ USB. 

 

Thank you again

[jelt2359]

Thanks. The Rednet 3 is an AOIP Ethernet to AES/ Spdif device. No need for a separate endpoint. I am currently using the Mutec 3+ USB (AES in) to perform reclocking after the Rednet 3 and before my DAC. 

 

Since my Rednet 3 has no 10mhz clock reference input, and only a word clock input, Id been wondering if it was beneficial to use the Mutec 3+ USB as the external master for the Rednet 3, especially if I add the Mutec Ref10 to this chain as well. 

[jelt2359]

Thanks, yes that is exactly what I was thinking of doing- I was just not sure if it would be better, since some also say the best clock would be the one right next to the device, which would probably mean the clock internal to the Rednet 3.

 

I'm new to these clock issues, so I'm very easily confused!

[jelt2359]

OK. Thank you!

[jelt2359]

Thank you. I will order a bnc cable to try it out, but in the meantime have you tried using the mutec as a word clock reference to the rednet 3?

[jelt2359]

Yes, exactly, I have that question too. I am trying to repurpose some old cables to try to use the Mutec 3+ USB as a reclocker and a clock reference for my RN3, and I'm not sure how to do it.

[jelt2359]

33 minutes ago, mourip said:

 

It would be great if the Mutec could re-clock and simultaneously act as a wordclock for the RN3. I am hoping that Julian will advise. Hard to really say which would be better without trying it. If it sounded even as good as the Live Clock I could sell that.

 

I have to admit that I am listening to music more now with this present setup and spending less time researching my next tweak. Probably a good sign.

Reading the manual again, can you try to connect your Antelope to the Wck In of the Mutec 3+ USB, then set the Mutec 3+ USB to be on EXTERN and RE-CLK mode. Then connect a Wck Out cable from the Mutec 3+ USB to the Rednet to see if that works to output a clock signal as well.

 

It seems the way we want to use it can *only* work with EXTERN and RE-CLK (not INTERN and RE-CLK). But if this works, you could probably sell the Antelope and consider the Ref10 to do what you're thinking of doing (I am thinking the same).

[jelt2359]

9 hours ago, jelt2359 said:

Reading the manual again, can you try to connect your Antelope to the Wck In of the Mutec 3+ USB, then set the Mutec 3+ USB to be on EXTERN and RE-CLK mode. Then connect a Wck Out cable from the Mutec 3+ USB to the Rednet to see if that works to output a clock signal as well.

 

It seems the way we want to use it can *only* work with EXTERN and RE-CLK (not INTERN and RE-CLK). But if this works, you could probably sell the Antelope and consider the Ref10 to do what you're thinking of doing (I am thinking the same).

Or; Julian can just confirm if this works!

[jelt2359]

It seems to me that the mutec 3+ USB does not reclock and provide a clock reference when not connected to an external clock. At least, I cannot get it to work. 

 

My hope is however that it could work with an external clock; and although why it would work with an external clock but not its internal clock is beyond me; nonetheless that seems to be what the manual implies. 

[jelt2359]

So I connected the rednet's word clock output to the mutec word clock input just to try and see if it will work. With this connected, the extern + reclock mode is now available. I still don't see any "word clock out" lights come up, strangely.

 

But on my rednet, "internal" clock reference plays perfectly fine, whereas the "external" breaks up from time to time (Im using a coaxial cable with a bnc adaptor so maybe impedance issues are a problem?). Not sure what's going on, and if there's even any clock signal coming from the mutec given that no "clock out" lights are on. 

 

Julian could you confirm how to make this work? The goal of course is to see if I should get a ref10 and connect it to my mutec, with the ideal use case of the mutec being a clock distributor and reclocker, both. 

[jelt2359]

Thanks for the reply. 

 

My ultimate goal is to do this with the Ref10, hence my questions here...

 

I'm only doing this now with the Rednet's clock as an experiment, because I do not have any other external clock. I was hoping to buy the Ref10 for this purpose. 

 

I will move my question over to the 3+ USB thread, no problem. 

[jelt2359]

Thanks Julian. That's exactly what I'm looking for! So am I right to say that; as long as I manually adjust the clock rate (you'll be surprised what lengths some of us audiophiles go to, heh.) then putting it in EXTERN + RE-CLOCK mode will exactly achieve what I am looking to do?

 

I believe that's already exactly what those who are using external clocks with their Rednet and Mutec 3+ USB are doing today...

 

PS, I have also written on the other thread. Please feel free to reply there instead if it's more suitable there.

[jelt2359]

I'd like to say a big THANK YOU for John in joining this thread; your insights have been simply invaluable. It looks like I'm not the only one who knows very little about clocks, so all this is incredible information. I understood from your reply earlier about cable lengths that what seems to matter most is not length, but the quality of the cable, and constant impedance throughout that matches the impedance of the clock (75 or 50 ohms). Is this right? 

[jelt2359]

Thanks again. I have ordered a 3M BNC cable from my favourite cable maker. A pair, actually, since I intend to use Mutec 3+ USB as reclocker and master clock.

 

I honestly don't understand the science behind it (why there may be signal loops), but my Rednet seemed to work fine when syncronised to the 3+ USB connected to an Antelope 10M, although the Rednet 3 was taking sample rate information from the computer. I'm still confused whether that's usually the case (usually, does the device take that info from Word Clock?).

 

But longer is always better for me in terms of usability so as long as it's within the approved realm I'll go longer!

[jelt2359]

I've heard that preorders are available but I don't think anyone actually has received them.

[jelt2359]

7 hours ago, seeteeyou said:

It's just a matter of marketing fluff. Whenever they're taking advantage of that term 'source agnostic' without having to back that claim up with anything whatsoever, they'll start telling us BS that would make perfect sense emotionally while it's also complete non-sense logically.

 

In other words, they're trying to manipulate someone's emotion and see if they're gonna get away with that. That term 'source agnostic' indeed sounded impressive and that would make us feel like they must have done something magical or special etc. In reality they're pretty magical in a sense that as if the clocks inside Devialet could act like a shield or stuff like that. Even if their clocking/cloaking/reclocking were as magical as it gets, that's just one out of many factors that could be affected by the quality of the source. All we need is just a tiny little bit of critical thinking and it's just a piece of cake to catch their lame "appealing to emotion" fallacy.

 

Here's yet another example, or more like a double whammy?

 

https://www.head-fi.org/f/threads/chord-electronics-dave.766517/page-81#post-12216950

 

A few years later, Blu MkII was released and that's supposedly the perfect match for Dave. What happened to the insensitivity and were they simply contradicting themselves in order to sell?

 

https://www.computeraudiophile.com/forums/topic/30434-new-chord-blu-mk-2-announced/

 

https://www.head-fi.org/f/threads/chord-electronics-blu-mk-2-the-official-thread.831343/page-28#post-13472716

 

It's just all about fluff talks, promise everything and deliver nothing like Napoleon Bonaparte if you will.

 

Personally, I don't consider the Blu2 a 'source' in the traditional sense of the word. When paired with the Dave, it actually takes over some of the DAC's upsampling functions and adds way more taps than the Dave. This is not comparing the same sampled signal from one source to another and saying the Dave is insensitive to that. Your statement is akin to saying that every DAC out there should be insensitive to the choice of algorithm in HQPlayer when used as a source, whereas I'd wager that not a single DAC manufacturer would agree with that; regardless of their prior claims.

 

When the source data is being deliberately manipulated via different upsampling, noise-shaping and so on, then of course it's going to sound different.

 

But that's just my two cents. The problem imho was that the Blu2 was being sold as two things in one: a traditional source, as in a CDP, but also as an 'upgrade' to the Dave in terms of how it handles taps. I think Chord would claim that Dave is insensitive to the former, but definitely not the latter.

[jelt2359]

Given that they take time to settle in, is it a good idea to leave the ref10 on 24/7?

[jelt2359]

If by control you mean provide a clock reference, then yes. It has eight outputs, 6 for 75 ohms and 2 for 50 ohms. So it can provide a clock reference to 8 devices at once. 

[jelt2359]

Everyone's setup is different. I have dedicated lines which feed PS Audio P10 regenerators, but still get big differences between power supplies. Currently, my Mutec 3+ USB is being fed by an LPS-1, which was a big improvement over other power supplies I've tried.

 

Oh and @mourip my Ref10 is in house. It works exactly the way we want it to, with the 3+ USB as both a standalone reclocker, as well as a distributor to the Rednet!