Mutec REF 10 Masterclock

[julian.david]

13 minutes ago, Confused said:

Yes, I think I have a lot to learn regarding clocks, although I at least get the point about the curves.

 

So what you are saying is that the Ref 10 is a more accurate clock than the dCS Master clock, but that the Ref 10 is incompatible with dCS products and could not be used with, say, the dCS Vivaldi Upsampler or DAC?  So why the incompatibility?  This I what I don't fully understand.  As I said, much to learn!

The REF 10 is arguable the most compatible 10 MHz clock out there and it will work in conjunction with various 10 MHz compatible DACs and clocks by manufacturers - not just MUTEC. It is however a strict 10 MHz clock, so you will need a 10 MHz reference input of some sort. The dCs Vivaldi Master Clock has a 10 MHz compatible reference input and the REF 10 will be an excellent choice to drive this input. But the other Vivaldi products (Upsampler, DAC) only have Word Clock inputs and (unfortunately) don't provide a 10 MHz input. So you would need some other master clock in between (like the dCs or the MUTEC MC-3+/MC-3+USB) to generate and distribute the Word Clock signal to the upsampled or DAC. 

 

Unfortunately dCs doesn't publish any phase noise figures for the Vivaldi Master Clock, which is the figure to pay attention to. But to my knowledge, the phase noise performance of the REF 10 is unmatched at the moment!

[julian.david]

5 hours ago, rickca said:

What is the price?

Hi all,

 

I expect to have reliable U.S. pricing information for you within the next 24-48 hours. List price in Germany is 3598.00 € including 19% German VAT.

 

Thanks for your patience,

Julian

[julian.david]

1 hour ago, k-man said:

 

So if @Confused's Devialet DAC doesn't have the 10MHz or Word Clock Input, then is there any relevance towards getting a REF 10? Or is it perfectly acceptable to 'slave' just the Mutec unit?   

Hi there,

 

Thank you all for the interest in the REF 10. There absolutely is a relevance to getting the REF 10 and using it exclusively as an external reference for the MC-3+USB. Obviously it would be ideal if all the devices in your setup would have a 10 MHz, but we've found a clearly audible improvement in SQ just by using the REF 10 only for the MC-3+USB. In fact, our booth setup at High End was pretty much just that: we had a standard MacBook Pro running Roon and feeding the MC-3+USB with a variety of files (from 44.1 kHz to DSD256). The MC-3+USB was outputting to a Linear D headphone DAC by Lehmann Audio via Toslink (S/P-DIF optical). Then we would switch between internally referenced re-clocking with the MC-3+USB's internal clock and externally referenced re-clocking with the REF10. There was no way to externally sync the DAC unfortunately. But despite the fact that the optical connection to the DAC was a "jittery" optical one, there was a clearly audible improvement in staging, depth, and smoothness of sound when applying the REF 10 reference. 

 

So in a nutshell: yes, it is acceptable to 'slave' just the MC-3+USB 

 

Hope this helps!

[julian.david]

Hi again,

 

As promised I can confirm a US retail price of $3395.00 via our distributor Sonic Distribution.

Pretty exciting, eh?

 

Julian

[julian.david]

One last thing (for tonight):

We are just starting to see the first production measurement data and things are looking really good. I will be able to share some curves with you soon 

[julian.david]

Just now, svart-hvitt said:

Thanks for interesting answer!

 

It means, that it would be possible to capture/record the sound with and without Ref10, wouldn't it?

 

In that case, you'd be able to present to sound files: One with the Ref10, and another without the Ref10.

 

Then it would be possible to evaluate the "sound" of the Ref10 in the comfort of one's own listening space.

 

Do you see my point?

 

Well, if only it was so simple ;-)

You are still talking about digital files here and the re-clocking does not change the bits of the source material at all. The re-clocking process (at least how we do it) is perfectly bit-transparent. Some other manufacturers do re-clocking by applying a sample rate conversion (SRC), but that's not how MUTEC does it. Clocking and re-clocking is all about the timing between samples and how the DAC is able to convert these samples into analog audio. So unfortunately there is no test (to my knowledge) of the re-clocking we can do by recording the output of the MC-3+USB. This applies for the re-clocking process in general, whether we do it based on the internal clock of the MC-3+USB or based on the REF 10. 

 

Does that help?

 

Julian

[julian.david]

7 hours ago, Kritpoon said:

 

Hi Julian,

 

When will Mutec be taking order for the Ref 10 clock? And the expected date for the 1st batch shipment?

 

Krit P.

Hi Krit,

 

MUTEC is taking orders for the REF 10 already and we are expecting to ship in the first half of June. In fact, we've already taken some orders at the show. Send an e-mail to our sales department at contact(AT)mutec-net.com if you want to be among the first to own one! 

[julian.david]

9 hours ago, svart-hvitt said:

 

Well, it should be possible to capture the sound of the Ref10, employing an analog-to-digital converter.

 

You have 3 scenarios to be captured:

 

1) Without the Ref10

2) With the Ref10 connected to MC-3-USB only

3) With the Ref10 connected to the whole chain of MC-3-USB and the AD converter.

 

AD and DA cconverters are extremely transparent these days, cfr. Studio Magazin 10/2016 where different AD converters were tested and test files were made:

 

http://accelerando.audio/de/studio-magazin/

 

Hi there,

 

The link you posted unfortunately is in German (which a lot of people don't speak here) and it doesn't give any information about what the audio files represent, what exactly was tested, and how. So I'm not sure what to make of that. 

 

But regardless, we are talking about detailed, yet significant improvements on a high-end level here. The test you are suggesting introduces a host of variables, a relatively elaborate, artificial test setup, and ultimately I don't believe that it will yield any meaningful results for most of the readers here. 

 

I would much rather spend that time to figure out a way so you can have a listen to the REF 10 yourself in the environment you know and in the application it was intended to be used: enjoying digital music playback through a high-quality DAC and a good pair of speakers. Judging by the link you posted, I'm guessing you are in Germany or one of the German speaking neighboring countries, so let me know if you're genuinely interested in a demo. 

 

Best regards,

Julian

[julian.david]

3 hours ago, jelt2359 said:

Will the ref10 come with an option to use external lps supplies? Or would I have to mod this myself/ with my dealer's help like with the 3+ USB if I were to pursue this option?

As Ulli mentioned MUTEC put lots of effort into creating an exceptional linear power supply with highest-grade power line filtering (without any "open", unfiltered cable paths), and lowest-noise power supplies for each section of the circuitry. So it really doesn't make a lot of sense for us to use an external power supply. We understand the concerns with the switch-mode supply in the MC-3+USB and decided to put extra emphasis on this area with the REF 10. 

 

Julian

[julian.david]

3 hours ago, svart-hvitt said:

I am in Norway and it would be great if the Norwegian distributor had a demo Ref10 unit.

 

:-)

Send me a PM or email with your contact details so we can continue that conversation. 

 

Thanks,

Julian

[julian.david]

2 hours ago, jelt2359 said:

Some other questions for audiophile (not pro audio) use. 

 

1) Does this mean that everytime I change to a song with different sample rate (as you can imagine, happens a lot with streaming), I have to check and fiddle with the sample rate settings on the Ref10 + 3+ USB, before I get the proper clocking?

 

Hi again,

No, that won't be the case! The re-clocking in the MC-3+USB always detects the incoming sample rate from the digital audio streams and adapts accordingly. So there's no user operation involved.

 

When you connect the REF 10 as an external reference, nothing changes in this regard. It's important to distinguish between the sample rate of the digital audio and the clock reference. The REF 10 is never involved in the digital audio. All it does is to provide an exceptionally low noise 10 MHz clock reference for the MC-3+USB (and other compatible devices) to do their processing that's completely independent from the sample rate of the digital audio.

 

2 hours ago, jelt2359 said:

2) Given that it now has LPS, does it mean we need to specify the voltage we want, when ordering?

 

The LPS in the REF 10 is still international with a replaceable fuse for 115/230 V operation. It still makes sense to let us know what grid you're on when ordering so we can provide the proper fuse value and select the appropriate voltage for you prior to shipping. Obviously, if you order from a U.S. store for example, this will already have been taken care of.

 

Best regards,

Julian

[julian.david]

On 6/2/2017 at 4:24 PM, john925 said:

Julian,

 

Have you received my message?  Thanks.

 

John

Hi John, 

 

Did you send an email or PM?

 

Julian

[julian.david]

On 06/06/2017 at 10:07 AM, sadekkhalifa said:

@julian.david when it will be available for orders?

And I would like to know if Ref10 able to connect to sMS-200Ultra with master clock that has 6-9v connector 

We are taking pre-orders already and it will be shipping very soon. Contact the MUTEC HQ directly or one of our distributors please.

 

As some other folks mentioned, the REF 10 will work great with the SOtM sMS-200Ultra if you have the additional sCLK-EX board that gives you the 10 MHz compatible input. We're actually great fans of the folks at SOtM and had dinner with them in Munich. There will most likely be a few devices to play with at MUTEC soon so we can provide full support for compatibility related questions.

[julian.david]

1 minute ago, Confused said:

My understanding is that the sMS-200Ultra is essentially a sMS-200 with a sCLK-EX clock board included internally?  So are you suggesting that an additional (external) sCLK-EX board is required to get the 10 MHz compatible input?

No, you're right of course. The ultra version already included the clock version. My bad! No need for any additional boards to get the 10 MHz input.

[julian.david]

5 hours ago, svart-hvitt said:

pam1975, there's an old (2010) discussion on clock cable length on Gearslutz:

 

https://www.gearslutz.com/board/music-computers/479654-clock-cable-length.html

 

The GS debate didn't conclude on a given, ideal length. However, nobody suggested that length should be below 1 meter.

 

Given the fact that word clocks have multiple outputs, imagine how the setup would look like if cable length were not to exceed 0.3 meters with, say 8, peripherals connected. Impossible to route 8 cables in that fashion, I think.

 

But I will await Mutec's answer because they're the ones who should know about signal strength etc. of their own clock.

 

5 hours ago, pam1975 said:

Good to hear Hollywood tested cable length on world clocks. In this case, absolutely, said boutique shop cannot compete.............

 

i agree with you - let's see if Mutec has an expert opinion on this.

but then again, Mutec is a boutique shop, so what shall we do then?

 

22 hours ago, austinpop said:

 

Nope.  I'm not making claims.

 

Just asking the question. Does master clock cable length matter? And referring to what SOtM have reported.

 

I'd rather just hear what Mutec - @julian.david et al. - have to say. 

 

No need for snideness.

 

 

 

Hi all,

 

Sorry I've been absent from this discussion for a few days, but I'm glad to see so much interest in the REF 10. I'll do a bit of catching up in the next couple of posts. 

 

Let's start with cable length:

It's extremely difficult to give a clear-cut answer to this question since cable length is not the only parameter here. The type of cable, connectors, as well as the impedances on both ends (sender & receiver) also matter. But let's focus on two aspects:

1. The 10 MHz signal of the REF 10 (or any other 10 MHz clock) is not the same as a "ordinary" word clock signal. The whole purpose of the REF 10 is to provide an ultra low phase noise, super precise clock signal that can be used to enhance existing clocks and DACs. Thus, you can't just apply the same rules that have been valid for word clock signals. 
2. While you can theoretically run a word clock signal up to 250 meters that doesn't mean that you should do so if you can avoid it. Antelope can claim what they deem appropriate, but you bet that there will be significant losses when you run a 250 m stretch and expect precise clocking. Sure, you'll still get some signal out of it and it may still be acceptable for broadcast, but we would never recommend a cable run like that for audiophile purposes.
3. It's not a fail/don't fail, binary type of situation here. So it's not like we can give you a specific length at which point it just "won't work anymore". But you will start to see negative effects of the cable building up as the length increases. Imagine a "rounding off" of the super sharp square wave that the REF 10 puts out which makes the lock point less precise. 

So while we have recommended a maximum cable length of 10 meters for the word clock (!) signals in the MC-3+ manual, we definitely recommend keeping the cables for the REF 10 as short as you possibly can. What exactly does 

mean? Well, again it depends, and we're still working on an official statement, but I'd try to keep the length to no more than 1-3 meters. Shorter is better. We were using 0.5 meter cables at High End recently and that worked remarkably well. 

 

I'm hoping we can show you guys some data to illustrate the effects of cable length, but our focus is shipping product at the moment, which I'm sure some of you will appreciate. 

 

Onwards...

 

[julian.david]

15 minutes ago, pam1975 said:

I understood exactly the same as you @austinpop, that is until @4est came crashing our little party

the ref 10 is definitely called by Mutec a "master reference" clock in their email correspondence with me...

 

 

1 hour ago, austinpop said:

 

And now I am confused again. 

 

Here is the info sheet on the Ref 10: https://www.mutec-net.com/downloads/Ref10_InfoSheet_2014_E.pdf . The first sentence reads:

 

The MUTEC REF10 is a reference master clock generating 10MHz clock signals of ultra-low phase noise, to significantly improve the acoustical quality of digital audio devices.

 

I would love a link to a good primer that explains these terms. So is the right way to think of as follows:

1. There is a concept of master and slave. A device that accepts a master input becomes a slave, and uses that master to synchronize.
2. There is an orthogonal concept of word and reference clocks. Word clocks provide the clocks for audio data at the relevant data frequencies, whereas a reference clock is a single frequency (usually 10MHz) and is used purely for synchronization?

So you can have master word clocks, and master reference clocks?

 

Am I on the right path?

 

2 hours ago, 4est said:

I am not sure who you are referring to, but this 10MHz product is not a master clock in any way, shape or form. It gets used with a word clock. The word clock acts as a "master" to slaves(ADCs,DACs ect). This is not masterclock/mclk. That term should be removed from the title in this thread as it will/has confused people. I do realize that SOtM use that term as well, but I do not think it is the appropriate term.

 

The sCLK board is available with different options for different uses.

 

Word clock is of a much lower frequency than the 10MHz Ref10 clock being discussed here. 10MHz is RF, and should be kept as short as practical.

 

 

 

Maybe somebody is going to write a Wikipedia article about this or we'll put together some kind of primer. But yes, we are calling the REF 10 a reference master clock generator. It strictly generates 10 MHz signals that are unrelated to audio Word Clock signals (which would typically have the same sample rate as the audio stream). 

 

So @austinpop is correct in saying that there are master (word) clocks and master reference clocks. The MC-3+ and MC-3+USB are audio master clock generators for example (albeit with a 10 MHz input) that can be used to create and distribute Word Clock signals as well as Re-Clocking. The REF 10 is a pure reference clock generator that can be used to provide an ultra precise reference for master clock generators (like the MC-3+/MC-3+USB) and compatible DACs. 

 

What's interesting about all of this is that the concept of a master and slave is becoming a little bit confusing with 10 MHz clocks and Re-Clocking. It used to be that you would always have one master in a digital audio system that would set the sample rate, and a bunch of slaves, typically all connected via Word Clock. When dealing with the 10 MHz reference, I believe it's important to keep the reference clock mentally separate from the audio clock, because those are independent. 

 

Let's look at a simple example chain: 

Network player (S/P-DIF output) -> MC-3+ / MC-3+USB for Re-Clocking -> DAC

 

In this case, the network player is essentially the master of this system and it will output digital audio streams at various sample rates. The Re-Clocking picks up that sample rate, re-clocks the stream based on the internal clock, and outputs the audio to the DAC. If the sample rate of the source (the network player) changes, the sample rate of the entire system changes accordingly. No sample rate conversion takes place!!

 

Now if you add a REF 10 to this system, the only thing that changes is that the Re-Clocking within the MC-3+/MC-3+USB is now based on this ultra precise external clock signal of the REF 10 to increase the quality of the re-clocking process affecting the sound quality of the entire system. But everything else stays the same and the REF 10 is technically not the "master" of the system in the traditional sense of dictating the sample rate. 

 

Does that make sense to you all?

 

Julian

[julian.david]

1 hour ago, austinpop said:

 

Here is the info sheet on the Ref 10: https://www.mutec-net.com/downloads/Ref10_InfoSheet_2014_E.pdf . The first sentence reads:

 

 

Somewhat unrelated, but still important: this info sheet is ancient and will be replaced soon. Please refer to this post for the new version in the meantime: Posted Monday at 11:55 PM

 

Thanks,

Julian

[julian.david]

11 hours ago, pam1975 said:

makes sense, thanks @julian.david 

But *what if* the Ref 10 is now also connected to the network player?

how does this change the master/slave concept (if at all)?

 

 

It doesn't change the master/slave concept at all when it comes to the audio sample rate master. It just means that the network player can use the superior 10 MHz clock as the basis of its processing, which (hopefully) will yield a better performing source. The same would be true for taking another output from the REF 10 to provide a 10 MHz reference for the DAC in this example. Now all of the three devices in the chain can benefit from the external reference, but the network player still sets the sample rate for the chain. This is exactly the reason why we are providing a total of eight outputs (at different impedances) with the REF 10. 

[julian.david]

9 hours ago, vortecjr said:

I hope you don't mind my asking, but why not just include in the ultra precise clock from the REF 10 in the MC-3+/MC-3+USB? Are using a PPL to lock onto the SPDIF signal, which adds jitter, and then reclock to remove the jitter? If you have a USB input that is Asynchronous that allows the DAC to be the master and not the music sever why would you use SPDIF? Thank you in advance.  

 

So there are a couple of questions here and the answers may depend on the individual setup. In terms of why the clock from the REF 10 is not included in the MC-3+/MC-3+USB: it would require a whole different design that would make the products wildly more expensive. The internal 1G clock in the MC-3+/MC-3+USB is really good in its own right and a lot of people feel like the product is great value for the money. The REF 10 is a much more expensive product with a very elaborate power supply and clock design that is intended for those looking to get the utmost performance at a premium cost. 

 

Regarding the other questions: I was previously describing a specific use case and of course there are situations that would argue against using S/P-DIF. We've found that the performance of the different digital inputs on a give DAC is usually not the same across the board. From an electrical (jitter) standpoint, an AES or BNC connection is often better than S/P-DIF optical. If you have a DAC with a USB input then it comes down to the quality of that USB interface. What about EMF interference from the music server? Is there any galvanic isolation? 

 

It just comes down to your specific setup and how to get the best performance out of it. Using an MC-3+/MC-3+USB (with or without) the REF 10 can be great way to do that, but of course it's by no means the only way. Otherwise it would be boring, wouldn't it?

 

Julian

[julian.david]

22 hours ago, vortecjr said:

I appreciate your responses. I have one follow up question that I did not think to ask before. Is the USB input also subject to the re-clocking circuit that is influenced by the use of the REF 10?

 

21 hours ago, svart-hvitt said:

In the same vein: Are alle the inputs of the MC-3+USB influenced, for example the AES-EBU input?

 

Yes, all of the inputs of the MC-3+USB (including the USB path) are subject to the re-clocking and will benefit from the REF 10.

[julian.david]

7 hours ago, vortecjr said:

Only you can tell us if it's better in your system 

 

Exactly!

[julian.david]

19 hours ago, Keith_W said:

Appreciate your contribution to this thread, Julian. 

 

I would also suggest that any potential purchaser of your clock check their DAC to see if it accepts a 10MHz input. My DAC for example (Merging NADAC) only accepts inputs in the base frequency or multiples thereof - e.g. 44.1kHz, 48kHz, etc. I understand (correct me if i'm wrong) that the Mutec does not have a synthesizer and is therefore unable to generate 44.1kHz for my DAC? 

 

That's correct. You would need at least an MC-3+ to take the 10 MHz signal as a reference and create a high-quality Word Clock at 44.1 kHz.

[julian.david]

15 hours ago, austinpop said:

 

It would be really great to list DACs that accept a 10MHz reference clock. Either they're not very common, or I'm in the wrong price segment - i.e. sub-$3k.

 

DACs with a word clock input seem to be more common. For example, the Mytek Brooklyn.

 

11 hours ago, 4est said:

 

I do not know of any that accept 10MHz unless the have a built in word clock. As I have said, that is a reference clock frequency used for word clocks and other telecommunication things.

 

We are working on a compatibility list for DACs. There are definitely a few out there already such as the Esoteric D-1, D-02X and D-05X, TEAC NT-503, Antelope Zodiac, and we are expecting there to be more manufacturers jumping on the bandwagon in the future.

[julian.david]

3 minutes ago, svart-hvitt said:

Would you add a list of compatible streamers (without DAC) as well?

 

:-)

 

1 minute ago, pam1975 said:

+1!

 

That is the plan

[julian.david]

6 hours ago, jelt2359 said:

So I connected the rednet's word clock output to the mutec word clock input just to try and see if it will work. With this connected, the extern + reclock mode is now available. I still don't see any "word clock out" lights come up, strangely.

 

But on my rednet, "internal" clock reference plays perfectly fine, whereas the "external" breaks up from time to time (Im using a coaxial cable with a bnc adaptor so maybe impedance issues are a problem?). Not sure what's going on, and if there's even any clock signal coming from the mutec given that no "clock out" lights are on. 

 

Julian could you confirm how to make this work? The goal of course is to see if I should get a ref10 and connect it to my mutec, with the ideal use case of the mutec being a clock distributor and reclocker, both. 

 

Ok, this is getting a bit off topic and would be better placed in the MC-3+ thread. Ultimately I'm not 100% sure what you're trying to achieve, but in general it's not really a good idea to try to re-clock a source and simultaneously externally clock the same source with the MC-3+/MC-3+USB. I sort of get the idea behind this endeavor, but it doesn't make a whole lot of sense and (potentially) gets you into trouble.

 

Some basic thoughts about using the MC-3+/MC-3+USB in this scenario:

1. Unless you have a very high grade (superior) clock source like the REF 10, you're best off sticking to "internal" and "reclock" mode.
2. Externally locking the source (rednet) to the MC-3+/MC-3+USB via the latter's Word Clock outputs creates somewhat of a "chicken & egg" problem. The re-clocker is looking for the incoming digital audio stream and will adjust its sample rate accordingly. Once it's locked, it will start outputting a Word Clock signal with the same sample rate (and phase-coherent). At the same time, the source (rednet) is looking for a Word Clock signal to lock to and is expecting the re-clocker to provide such. That's a bit of stalemate and not really what you want.
3. It becomes questionable why exactly you'd want your source (rednet) to lock to an external Word Clock anyway, since it would dictate the sample rate of your system. But what if you want to playback music with different sample rates? Switch it manually all the time?

Maybe we can move this discussion over to the other thread or continue via PM/email so this thread can focus on the REF 10?