Did a $79 Behringer mastering interface just outperform the iFi DAC2?

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1 hour ago, mrvco said:

Does Amir own a pair of speakers or just that AP analyzer?

 

He has Revel Salon 2 speakers. 

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4 minutes ago, jhwalker said:

In the first J-Test, looks like the Behringer has a spike at ~10k, and loses its sh*t completely below 1k and above 20k.  Is that a measurement fluke, or is something really going on there?  Besides that, it obviously measures well, and has a lower floor than the iDAC2.

 

Those little peaks you see below 1 khz are from 60 hz and harmonics.  They are all below -120.  The uptick right at the bottom of the graph is common and if you look close the iFi actually goes upward a bit higher there.   Yes the 10 khz spike is there probably some reflection of an idle tone around the sample rate.  Anyway Amir is supposed to supplement the measurements with some of looking at the ultra-sonic roll offs, and such. 

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8 hours ago, plissken said:

I have one in for some subjective evaluation... So far I'm impressed even compared to my $499 Emotiva DC-1 and the $4000 Cary Audio DMS-500 streamer.

 

Taking away the sighted evaluation really makes the subjective process easier. I'm going to live with it a bit more but for $79 the performance is just bonkers. 

 

Unfortunately, here at least, if I make a recommendation of this $79 wonder vs some $400 and $500 kit, I'll get a crap load of push back from people that go along with $$'s equal performance instead of good engineering. Or in some cases how much the DAC weighs. I think people would be hard pressed to pick this out blind vs other well measuring and certainly more expensive DAC's. 

 

You'll likely get a reception like I did at WBF once.  Someone was asking for budget gear that really performed at a high level.  I suggested it was easy for a system cost of $1500 or less which of course was scoffed at hard.  WBF's idea of budget is pretty high.  I was dared to give just one example.  I suggested an Emotiva Stealth, and a pair of JBL LSR305s or 308s and you still haven't spent $1k yet.  Plug in a computer or tablet you already have and your done.

 

If you wanted to go on to $1500 you could buy a sub or two and those speakers will fill a large room with quite high quality sound, and yet still have a few bucks left over.

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2 hours ago, Jud said:

 

My guess is a whole bunch of them don't know something very similar is the first digital bitstream in their ADCs, and that many of them also associate it with Sony and their attempt to take over the world with SACD.

 

In fact I've read a few statements along the way that have given me that impression.

I think you would be wrong about that for the majority of those recording. 

 

The reason DSD is not much of a presence in the pro world is very simple.  You can't do editing and processing of DSD. You have to switch to analog or PCM for that and go back to DSD.  So much processing is done now this factor makes DSD a non-starter in that industry. 

 

And yes actually there are starting to be some options for doing DSD processing, but they are all expensive and still limiting versus PCM.  The chances DSD will be more than a niche in the recording side of the business is even lower than in the music selling side I think.  If at some point enough effort is put forth to make available for peanuts tons of processing capability for free with a DSD ADC purchase that might change.  As in there is no reason not to as it would effectively be as simple as staying PCM.  Currently that is not the case.

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Cheaper DACs are getting better.  Some more expensive DACs while better I think have already passed the point where humans can hear a difference.  These recording interfaces seem to go in cycles.  As better ADC/DAC chips are made available they design around them and ratchet up the quality every so often.  Currently quite a number of recent audio interfaces are right near full 20 bit performance for less than $1000.  I think once you reach that there isn't anywhere left to go sonically.  So maybe the lower priced items like the Behringer will hit that mark next time around in maybe 4 years.   For that matter I am not so sure humans could hear it where performance lies now.

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3 hours ago, TubeLover said:

Exactly what I've seen and heard Jud. They all seem to have focused  on the Sony attempt to seize everything, and have not forgotten it.  Based on that, it's never been given a fair shot. 

 

JC

I'm repeating myself, but it won't get any shot.  Fair or otherwise.  Regardless of any sound difference, it would have to be a tremendous huge improvement for recording people to forego easy editing, processing and creating that is possible with PCM and minimum to non-existent with DSD.  There work would be easier to return fully to analog tape than it would be to work in DSD if they insisted on keeping it DSD from start to finish.

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25 minutes ago, semente said:

 

Or you could mix analogue and DSD (i.e. Blue Coast Records), but then you will be using analogue as an effects box.

I am not condemning the creative use of analogue warmth but it does have an impact on signal "purity"(?) if that's what you are aiming for.

 

Another question in my view is whether or not the musical programe justifies the use of a potentially more accurate minimally mic'ed, unprocessed DSD workflow.

This is something that would of course not be feasible with studio recordings as most are impossible to produce with DSD, and to be blunt a lot of the material doesn't really justify it anyway (i.e. teenage pop, dance, electronic).

Oh yes, and plenty of people use a trip thru tape with PCM.  Or go to analog to send to outboard analog compressors or other gear and back to PCM.  Studios with very rare exceptions care not a whit for purity the way audiophiles think they do.

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9 hours ago, plissken said:

 

 

I could easily see this unit or the 404HD, the Yamaha P2500S, driving $9400 worth of speakers outperforming $5000 in DAC/AMP and $5000 in speakers.

Actually unless you intentionally rig the test with some sub-par for the price speakers, I see no other result than the $9400 speakers with the cheap front end outperforming the alternate using $5000 speakers.

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59 minutes ago, plissken said:

 

Yep ;-) I've been, unfortunately, not surprised by seeing $1000 in speakers being driven by $3000 in amp/dac/source hardware. It's a head scratcher every time.

 

Not quite as odd as a USB DAC that costs a third of the money spent connecting the two ends of the USB cable with all the reclockers, isolators, special power supplies and special cables.

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1 minute ago, Superdad said:

 

Don't knock it 'til you've tried it Dennis.  

Show me good reason to do so.  Something beyond just listen you'll see.  With the emphasis on SEE.

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31 minutes ago, Superdad said:

 

Well you can SEE what a whole lot of people are saying...

But then I know you don't like to LISTEN to anybody else. 

 

However Dennis, IF you were willing to use your ears, I'd send you an ISO REGEN / UltraCap LPS-1 combo gratis for you to try for a few weeks.  ZERO obligation to buy, just an obligation to listen and honestly report what you hear.

It's your chance to see (hear) if the emperor has no clothes! 

 

--Alex C.

(P.S.  We are 100% sold out until the very end of July, but I'd be happy to reserve a kit for you.)

Okay Alex.  I'll take you up on that. Assuming you meant it would be after the end of July.  That actually would be best for me as I have some time consuming obligations for the next three weeks. I'll of course cover cost of shipping and such. 

 

Just get in touch with any details via PM, and I can give you some other contact info.

 

Thanks,
Dennis

 

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7 minutes ago, Superdad said:

 

Excellent Dennis!    I'll be in touch.  And yes, not until the very end of July.  All the paid and waiting orders come first.

Best,

--Alex C.

 

P.S. Will you be using this thread's $79 wonder-DAC? 

I don't have one of those in my possession.  If we consider that a $39.50 per channel ADC/DAC, I have one that is $43.75 per channel.  What I had in mind was using my Focusrite Forte or my Tact unit fed via an SPDIF converter.  And any other DAC I can get hands on to try.  I am sure I can get an Emotiva from a friend. 

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14 hours ago, plissken said:

 

I can get you the Emotiva DC-1 and the Behringer 204HD.

Pretty sure I can get hands on an Emotiva.  Let me see how it goes with what I have before I line up 4 dozen DACs to try.

 

I do appreciate the courtesy of the offer, and may take you up on it for the 204 HD at some point.

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14 hours ago, plissken said:

 

I'll send him mine.

Thank you, but I have some time consuming things on my plate for the next 3 weeks.  So after the end of July will fit my schedule very nicely. 

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1 hour ago, Kelly said:

Let me preface this by saying that I am not making any claims to technical expertise ... BUT it would not surprise me if the iFi was a particularly poor measuring device. The iFi/AMR philosophy is to playback all material in native format within the hardware as much as possible (hence they were the innovator in introducing a truly affordable, true DSD playback device.) They are very open that doing things in this manner doesn't always lead to the best measurements, as simple techniques like upsampling can dramatically improve some measurements. They philosophically seek to avoid this as much as possible in their implementations.

 

So my question for those more knowledgeable about these things, if the iFi is indeed processing these signals at a native rate, and the Behringer is processing at upsampled 192khz would that, explain the difference in measurements?

No it would not. 

 

Nor is their philosophical approach sensible if they can't produce gear that performs well.  Unless that performance shortcoming is a preferred coloration.