Did a $79 Behringer mastering interface just outperform the iFi DAC2?

[plissken]

Amir's sub $99 DAC testing is going to be an interesting series. It appears, disregarding price, that a $79 interface with balanced I/O, ADC, HP Amp,

outperforms the iFi DAC2:

 

[jabbr]

A) I'd like to know the resolution of the measurements / equip because they're not too far off ... certainly not bad for the behringer though

B) I'd like to see a close up measurement, just a few Hz around the carrier and with high res intervals (subHz) before declaring which one is "better"

[plissken]

3 minutes ago, jabbr said:

A) I'd like to know the resolution of the measurements / equip because they're not too far off ... certainly not bad for the behringer though

B) I'd like to see a close up measurement, just a few Hz around the carrier and with high res intervals (subHz) before declaring which one is "better"

 

Go to audiosciencereview and ask. The other thing to keep in mind is that this is the single ended output on the Behringer. The Balanced out hasn't been measured yet.  Expect 5-7 dB better performance on average. 

 

Given that both are measured at the same sampling interval you would have to ask the same for the iFi. Sauce and Geese and all of that. 

 

Given what I see I don't see the iFi walking away from the 204HD. 

[Ralf11]

I'd like to know how important the small differences are to SQ, what the unit to unit variation is, and what's going on at 10 kHz with that little blip.

[jabbr]

3 minutes ago, Ralf11 said:

I'd like to know how important the small differences are to SQ, what the unit to unit variation is, and what's going on at 10 kHz with that little blip.

 

Like anything else you would measure and want to correlate one thing to the other, once you collected a set of measurements, then you could collect a set of SQ comparisons, or in whatever order, and then you could correlate. No different.

[plissken]

8 minutes ago, Ralf11 said:

I'd like to know how important the small differences are to SQ, what the unit to unit variation is, and what's going on at 10 kHz with that little blip.

 

Unit to unit with the iFi? Or the Behringer? I.E. is the iFi immune from manufacturing variation? Both units have very good performance and the Behringer may have that slight 10Khz rise but doesn't exhibit 2nd order harmonics. 

 

I'm keen on seeing the balance outputs measured. 

 

Any way you chop it what is shown is excellent and for $80?

[mrvco]

Does Amir own a pair of speakers or just that AP analyzer?

[Ralf11]

unit to unit for each manf.

 

sounds like no one knows if -130 is adequate or not...

[esldude]

1 hour ago, mrvco said:

Does Amir own a pair of speakers or just that AP analyzer?

 

He has Revel Salon 2 speakers. 

[jabbr]

7 hours ago, Ralf11 said:

unit to unit for each manf.

 

sounds like no one knows if -130 is adequate or not...

It's not the baseline that's so important rather the line width.

[plissken]

7 hours ago, mrvco said:

Does Amir own a pair of speakers or just that AP analyzer?

 

He owns a high end consumer A/V firm... He also was the VP at Microsoft that developed the WASAPI audio subsystem for Windows.

[plissken]

7 hours ago, Ralf11 said:

unit to unit for each manf.

 

sounds like no one knows if -130 is adequate or not...

Adequate or not for what?

[plissken]

Some people look a gift horse in the mouth. Others get on the thing and ride. Good questions but I sense some push back either due to the price, the manufacturer, or both. Not metrics that affect SQ or real performance. 

 

The 204HD is what it is and if it's measuring and performing well then that is what it is. Hopefully some more measurements will be forthcoming but in the areas of noise floor and jitter performance it's right there with the best of them. It doesn't even exhibit 2nd order harmonic behavior and the 3rd harmonic is still lower than an audiophile DAC that is 443% more expensive and doesn't have nearly the options. 

 

So anyone that is asking for high performance DAC that is budget bound this is a great option for them.

 

I know it's a better interface than the Schitt Modi and $20 less with way more connectivity. 

 

 

[YashN]

Troll posting review of another troll. Audiosciencemockery...

[plissken]

YashN Reported. 

[mrvco]

3 hours ago, plissken said:

 

He owns a high end consumer A/V firm... He also was the VP at Microsoft that developed the WASAPI audio subsystem for Windows.

 

That doesn't answer my question.

 

Has Amir ever posted listening impressions?  There are countless examples in audiophillia of "sounds great, measure poorly" and vice versa.  I'd love to know whether Amir's measurements do or don't correlate with what his ears tell him.  And I inadvertently met Amir last year at RMAF, surprisingly nice guy.

[kilroy]

27 minutes ago, plissken said:

YashN Reported. 

Reported for what? Telling the truth?

[plissken]

10 minutes ago, mrvco said:

 

That doesn't answer my question.

 

Has Amir ever posted listening impressions?  There are countless examples in audiophillia of "sounds great, measure poorly" and vice versa.  I'd love to know whether Amir's measurements do or don't correlate with what his ears tell him.  And I inadvertently met Amir last year at RMAF, surprisingly nice guy.

 

He's just posting measurements and not listening to any of the devices. It's a measurement only endeavor he is undertaking. My understanding is he has more sub $100 DACs to come. 

 

There are countless examples of measures great and sounds great and measures poorly and sound poorly.

 

If you want to make the bet that the Schitt Modi would outclass the Behringer UMC204HD subjectively, I would want in on that action. 

 

 

[Ralf11]

Adequate so that further reductions below -130 dB will not increase SQ

[plissken]

15 minutes ago, Ralf11 said:

Adequate so that further reductions below -130 dB will not increase SQ

 

Yep...  Look at the peak amplitude of the 2nd and 3rd order harmonics. The Behringer engineers have it better controlled.

 

I would think people would be happy that they can get $300 or even $400 worth of performance for $79.

[semente]

On 18 May 2017 at 4:21 AM, plissken said:

 

High second harmonic, that is bound to "sound good" (to some people). 

[plissken]

I have one in for some subjective evaluation... So far I'm impressed even compared to my $499 Emotiva DC-1 and the $4000 Cary Audio DMS-500 streamer.

 

Taking away the sighted evaluation really makes the subjective process easier. I'm going to live with it a bit more but for $79 the performance is just bonkers. 

 

Unfortunately, here at least, if I make a recommendation of this $79 wonder vs some $400 and $500 kit, I'll get a crap load of push back from people that go along with $$'s equal performance instead of good engineering. Or in some cases how much the DAC weighs. I think people would be hard pressed to pick this out blind vs other well measuring and certainly more expensive DAC's. 

[Panelhead]

  Looks like 18 bit resolution for the Behringer. But 79.00 does not buy 22 bit. 

  Does look good.

[jhwalker]

In the first J-Test, looks like the Behringer has a spike at ~10k, and loses its sh*t completely below 1k and above 20k.  Is that a measurement fluke, or is something really going on there?  Besides that, it obviously measures well, and has a lower floor than the iDAC2.

[esldude]

4 minutes ago, jhwalker said:

In the first J-Test, looks like the Behringer has a spike at ~10k, and loses its sh*t completely below 1k and above 20k.  Is that a measurement fluke, or is something really going on there?  Besides that, it obviously measures well, and has a lower floor than the iDAC2.

 

Those little peaks you see below 1 khz are from 60 hz and harmonics.  They are all below -120.  The uptick right at the bottom of the graph is common and if you look close the iFi actually goes upward a bit higher there.   Yes the 10 khz spike is there probably some reflection of an idle tone around the sample rate.  Anyway Amir is supposed to supplement the measurements with some of looking at the ultra-sonic roll offs, and such.