High res files on DVD-R: Your view?

[bdiament]

This forum seems like a great place to post this question:

 

In the new year, I hope add an additional format for our new releases. Since the original recordings are done 24/192, we'll have a files-on-DVD-R format in addition to the regular CD.

 

At first, I was thinking WAV files, as Reference and Chesky (and perhaps others) have done. But as I get deeper into building my own music server, I'm reconsidering.

 

The original recordings are currently recorded and mastered in AIF format. It is the format I've chosen for files on my own server as well. (I have rejected lossless compression because while it can be demonstrated that off-line expansion results in a bit perfect result -if nothing goes wrong- listening tests have shown that real-time expansion, i.e. playback directly from e.g. FLAC, does not, to my ears, sound the same, subtle as the differences might be.)

 

The decision to distribute the files in AIF format is not cast in stone. It is just what I'm thinking at the moment. There is also the possibility of giving the customer the option of ordering a disc of AIFs or a disc of WAVs. Or, a smaller possibility of using double layer DVD-Rs and providing both but this is not a strong likelihood.

 

To complicate things some more, some folks have DACs that only go up to 96k. I can see a 24/96 files-on-DVD-R format too (though we currently put 24/96 on the PCM tracks of ordinary DVDs that play in any DVD player (they're not DVD-A format, just plain DVD-video, with rudimentary menus as the only video content).

 

So, what is your feeling about this?

Does it matter to you if you purchase a disc of files and they're in AIF format? Would you prefer this (I would)? Would you prefer WAV?

I'd like to hear from folks who might be interested in such discs in the future.

 

Just gathering data at this point. It will be a while before any releases. But now that I'm finally building my own server (and having BIG fun with the whole idea) the new format is solidifying into something we're definitely going to do.

 

Thanks for your input.

 

Best regards,

Barry

www.soundkeeperrecordings.com

www.barrydiamentaudio.com

 

 

[bottlerocket]

My thought is the format is not too important. AIF, FLAC, WAV all work as everyone has gotten pretty good at converting them to what they want. AIF and WAV both work in Itunes natively which is the most ubiquitous player. But CA has a "best practice" to archive in FLAC. Bottom line for me though is that I'd be happy with any of the above.

 

As for 24/96 or 24/192, I think the best distribution would be 16/44.1 and 24/192 and those that are limited to 24/96 by their DACs (I am) can down-sample. Its ideal to get a disk that you can treat as a data disk and just copy whichever files you need.

 

For me, I have found the issues that include both a CD and a DVD-A the most convenient (not suggesting DVD-A, just an example). I use the DVD to get hi-res data files to my server and I am happy to have the CD for use in my car.

 

One other comment, I never use the video menu for anything on these discs. My personal opinion is its a waste of space. Forget the stupid pictures, old movie clips and clumsy menus. Just give me the music as data files.

 

 

[bdiament]

Hi bottlerocket,

 

Thanks very much for your input.

 

By the way, our 24/96 DVD-R releases just provide a simple menu for easy access to a particular track. The DVD video standard requires something for video content and rather than solid black, we chose to provide a clickable list of songs.

 

Looking forward to our first 24/192 release. It really is a whole 'nother ballgame.

 

Best regards,

Barry

www.soundkeeperrecordings.com

www.barrydiamentaudio.com

 

 

[barrows]

I would say that wav 24/192 is the way to go. There are plenty of PC out there (not me though) and wav seems to be the most universal uncompressed format. Most Mac folks capable of playing high res files are facile enough to convert wav to aif with max. I love the idea of distributing high res music as wav files, and am psyched that you are doing it.

You should also consider the users of PS Audio's Perfect Wave Transport, this transport can play raw wav files directly, by just placing the DVD-R in transport's disc drawer. You might want to contact Paul McGowan at PS (the "P") about the exact file format requirements of the Perfect Wave Transport-he would probably be willing to mention your work in the monthly PS Audio newsletter. I'll PM you Paul's e-mail.

 

[bdiament]

Hi barrows,

 

Thanks for your reply.

Does the Perfect Wave not do AIF? (If not, they ought to fix that.)

 

"...Most Mac folks capable of playing high res files are facile enough to convert wav to aif with max..."

 

I would hope the same is true for Windows users converting AIF to WAV.

 

Hmm. Okay. I'll keep this in mind. Though my hope is to keep it simple at our end, since we burn discs to order, we'll have to consider options.

 

Best regards,

Barry

www.soundkeeperrecordings.com

www.barrydiamentaudio.com

 

 

[barrows]

I would say that wav 24/192 is the way to go. There are plenty of PC out there (not me though) and wav seems to be the most universal uncompressed format. Most Mac folks capable of playing high res files are facile enough to convert wav to aif with max. I love the idea of distributing high res music as wav files, and am psyched that you are doing it.

You should also consider the users of PS Audio's Perfect Wave Transport, this transport can play raw wav files directly, by just placing the DVD-R in transport's disc drawer. You might want to contact Paul McGowan at PS (the "P") about the exact file format requirements of the Perfect Wave Transport-he would probably be willing to mention your work in the monthly PS Audio newsletter. I'll PM you Paul's e-mail.

 

[flatmap]

I prefer the aif format as it bundles the metadata in the same file as the music. It's a welcome convenience. I wouldn't blink to purchase the offering in wav, but it does require that extra bit of fussing that I would just as soon skip.

 

 

[barrows]

not communicate with those guys (PS Audio) very often anymore. The PWT only read CD and wav when it was introduced. I know the PWT is field upgradeable for firmware, so they may have upgraded it to aif as well by now. I know that there was some confusion about how open Apple is about allowing third parties to use aif in hardware. The PWT is kind of unique, because it runs a totally bespoke OS, developed just to make it work as a memory player.

 

[barrows]

delete

 

[cfmsp]

Agreed with flatmap on the AIFF versus .WAV format, for the same reason.

 

As risk of sounding like a Mac 'bigot', several of the industry leading 'pro' audio firms are OS X b(i)ased (i.e., Mac only), so why not use the native Mac format?

 

Let the 'other guys' convert for once.

 

I don't see significant value in archiving (losslessly) in FLAC personally, so this is the LEAST interesting format to me.

 

just my opinion,

 

clay

 

PS, I'm referring to Sonic/Amarra, Audiofile Engineering and Metric Halo, to name the industry leading Mac only firms I am a loyal customer of.

 

 

[danfeiyan18]

A DVD-R is a DVD disc that allows you to put your own information onto it. The -R in DVD-R means "recordable." Unlike a DVD you get from the video store, DVD-Rs are blank to begin with. Once you write data to them, they cannot be erased. The most common DVD-R is a write once 4.7GB “general purpose” disc, which is roughly equal to 120-minutes of standard playing lime.

Check this step by step guide on how to copy a DVD+R formatted disk to a DVD-R disk.

 

[vortecjr]

thanks for allowing us to chime in and be part of the process. For sure we can not forget about our members that can only play up to 24/96. So it seems resonable to follow Kent Poon's example and offer more than one sample rate. On the aiff vs wav issue I have mixed feelings, but respect that you like aiff for yourself. I have had trouble with Kent's aiff and inserting it into some pc players. That may be because his albums have similar names though... I need to do some research and get back to you. It may be that I found a way to mess it up. Not sure about DVD-v as I thought that would by default mess up the sound. DVD-a would be fine by me. I have some of my collection on DVD-a from wav and it's great on my Rotel player, but does need a player for playback. Since you record in aiff I guess I would want that though to keep it as close to the original. Finally, I think aiff and wav on the same disk is impractical for you.

 

Jesus R

www.sonore.us

 

[jonmarsh]

Either works for me, as conversion is no big deal- and both have meta data embedded, unlike wave. AIF is what I'd use "natively". 24/192 or 24/176.4 would be my preferred formats, depending on what's most "native" from your system.

 

Glad to hear you're moving forward with this!

 

~Jon

 

[bdiament]

Hi Jesus,

 

Thank you for your much appreciated input.

 

The decision on the format has been made.

Soundkeeper will offer options for our files-on-disc format.

At order time, the customer can choose between the following:

24/192 AIF

24/192 WAV

24/96 AIF

24/96 WAV

 

This way, those who have a perference for AIF or WAV can choose what they like and those who's DACs only go to 96k can choose this rate as well.

 

DVD-V has worked quite well for us with the last release, with many customers choosing this option. They get the 24/96 audio and do not need a special player as almost any ordinary DVD video player can play these. (Of course, those wanting to take a digital output from their player to an external DAC must make sure the player's internal menu is set to pass 96k from the digital output and not decimate this to 48k.)

Some customers have used a program like DVD Audio Extractor to pull the 24/96 files from the DVD. I have compared these extracted files directly against the original masters and found them to be 100% perfect, bit for bit.

 

So, our files-on-disc format(s) will not replace the DVD-Rs we offer but simply be an additional option for the customer - along with our regular CDs and CD-Rs.

 

And yes, AIF and WAV on the same disc won't happen. I want to stay with single layer discs and an hour of 24/192 takes up (~4 G) close to the full capacity of the disc. Each of our files-on-disc DVD-Rs (even the 96k versions) will contain only a single format - either AIF or WAV.

 

Best regards,

Barry

www.soundkeeperrecordings.com

www.barrydiamentaudio.com