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louisxiawei

Looking for speakers that can reach a ultra sonic frequency range (50 kHz to 100kHz) for DSD music system playback

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Well Sony made a series of high end speakers with a claimed 75k response. While not made anymore they can fetch a pretty penny. They even had a series ( K90? ) that was cheap and still hit the 75khz mark. DSD was the rationale behind the carbon tweeter that they developed.

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do you need high SQ?

 

if not, you can find what scientists use for bat detectors, or for dolphin research


"The overwhelming majority [of audiophiles] have very little knowledge, if any, about the most basic principles and operating characteristics of audio equipment. They often base their purchasing decisions on hearsay, and the preaching of media sages. Unfortunately, because of commercial considerations, much information is rooted in increasing revenue, not in assisting the audiophile. It seems as if the only requirements for becoming an "authority" in the world of audio is a keyboard."

-- Bruce Rozenblit of Transcendent Sound

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A couple of observations. 

First is would it hurt you.  Even a test cd at 14 k played loud is painful I cannot imagine higher freq 

 

next even 14 k is very directional and I have 8 foot high dipoles and if I move it does go up and down.  

 

Upsample pcm to dsd 512 is what most upsampled sounds best to me and not all upsamplijg sounds good. 

 

Dsd 64 is bettered by dsd 128.  After that while there is change it's ambience I here not musical instruments being played. 

 

What we like is learned over time many many hours.  Having said that I have read we react to higher freq from skin , eyes and who knows what else. 

 

Lastly think of this nothing in nature or any instrument I know of goes any where near 20k

but harmonics do but i don't think this happens in nature.  

 

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On 7/11/2017 at 0:53 AM, ALRAINBOW said:

A couple of observations. 

First is would it hurt you.  Even a test cd at 14 k played loud is painful I cannot imagine higher freq 

 

next even 14 k is very directional and I have 8 foot high dipoles and if I move it does go up and down.  

 

Upsample pcm to dsd 512 is what most upsampled sounds best to me and not all upsamplijg sounds good. 

 

Dsd 64 is bettered by dsd 128.  After that while there is change it's ambience I here not musical instruments being played. 

 

What we like is learned over time many many hours.  Having said that I have read we react to higher freq from skin , eyes and who knows what else. 

 

Lastly think of this nothing in nature or any instrument I know of goes any where near 20k

but harmonics do but i don't think this happens in nature.  

 

Thanks for the tips.

 

I also realized a few things that why a wide frequency response of the equipment 

 

1. I think some comment people made here are correct that we cannot hear sound above 20k Hz. Those harmonic sound that our body claimed that can feel, I personally also don't think it exists in music playback  system, since the microphone that records the music might have already lost it. I don't know whether the extension of treble is related to the frequency response. Because I read some articles that the sampling rate of the DSD matters for treble extension. (Such as DSD128 is better than DSD64 in terms of dynamic range)

 

2. DSD's ultra sonic noise might cause the overload of some equipment such as (pre-amp, power amp and speaker). T+A's PDP3000 SACD player model used to convert SACD to PCM in order to protect the tweeter of the speaker. That's maybe why some people told me that for DSD playback safety reason,  a pair of speakers'd better to have a wide frequency response around 50 Khz.

 

3. I don't know whether modern speakers or amplifiers have been already well-designed to handle those DSD ultrasonic noise signal. At least I still see T+A suggests to find a amplifier that have a wide frequency response up to 100 kHz to avoid distortion in their DSD DACs' manual. But for speakers, T+A doesn't have any speakers model having very wide frequency to something over 50 kHz.

 

Feel free to correct me if you know anything I'm completely wrong.

 

 

 

 


Software: Roon, Tidal, HQplayer 

HQplayer PC: i9 7980XE, Titan Xp; i9 9900K, Titan V

DAC: T+A DAC8 DSD, exasound e12, iFi micro iDSD BL

USB tweaks: Intona, Uptone (ISO) regen, LPS-1, LPS-1.2, Sbooster Vbus2, Curious cables,  Certified HiSpeed USB cable

NAA: Logic CL100, Uptone JS-2

AMP: Spectral DMC 30SV, Spectral DMA 300

Speaker: Magico S3 MKII

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On 4/29/2017 at 4:11 PM, mansr said:

That would be a mistake. Without a low-pass filter, you'll be feeding all that noise into the amp and speakers, and no good can come of this. Firstly, the noise can (and does) cause audible intermodulation distortion. Secondly, you'll be wasting amp power driving the speakers with noise they can't reproduce and that shouldn't be there in the first place.

Assuming the DAC or AMP can even reproduce those infrasonics and don't have a low pass filter of some form or another.

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On 5/1/2017 at 6:59 AM, louisxiawei said:

 

Thanks for the links.

 

I doubt the tweeter from Tannoy will work. As I previous mentioned,  Tannoy's Prestige GR series average frequency response is around 34 Hz - 40 kHz. Hence there is a lacking frequency gap between 40 - 55 kHz even with the help of its super-tweeter. Not sure this gap will cause any negative impact on the SQ or not.

 

I guess I just need to do some practical experiment myself. Thanks again.:)

 

I'm curious where you're getting the gap. I own Tannoy Canterbury GR's and the Prestige GR SuperTweeter's. The Canterbury GR frequency response is 28 Hz - 27 kHz. The SuperTweeter crossover can be set at 14kHz, 16kHz or 18kHz. The Prestige GR SuperTweeter response goes to 62 kHz with usable output (-18 dB) to 100 kHz. Where is the gap if the crossover begins at 18kHz and the tweeter response goes to 62kHz? If you haven't experience it yet, the Prestige GR SuperTweeter is a fabulous addition to the already amazing Canterbury GR. Give the combination a listen and then decide.

 


Main: McIntosh C2300, MC601 (2),  MCD1100, MR88, MPC1500, MCLK12. Tannoy Canterbury GR, Tannoy GR SuperTweeter. REL 212/SE (2). APC S15Blk (2). Wireworld. Duelund. Transparent. Shunyata. Synology. ASC. GIK.

HT: McIntosh. Tannoy. Oppo.

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I had lots to say but esldude has pretty much said it all. My top priorities in finding a speaker are the Treble and Mid-Range presentation. These are the most important as far as the content of the music. 

I haven't come across any recording gear in my time whose frequency response exceedes 20kHz.

I use Adam monitors at work that go up to 44kHz and this just enables a more stable response at 20kHz with no roll-off. 

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10 hours ago, Gonzbull said:

I had lots to say but esldude has pretty much said it all. My top priorities in finding a speaker are the Treble and Mid-Range presentation. These are the most important as far as the content of the music. 

I haven't come across any recording gear in my time whose frequency response exceedes 20kHz.

I use Adam monitors at work that go up to 44kHz and this just enables a more stable response at 20kHz with no roll-off. 

Thanks for the suggestion. At the moment, Paradigm persona 9H is in my watch list and going to pull the trigger in the very near future. 

 

I do find there are a few over-20kHz microphones on the market up to 100 kHz. In my opinion, these microphones will be very useful for some DSD recording. Any comment? 

 

SR40 40kHz microphone:

 

http://www.earthworksaudio.com/microphones/sr-series-2/sr40/

 

Sanken 100kHz microphone

 

http://www.pinknoise-systems.co.uk/sanken-co-100k-omnidirectional-super-wide-range-condenser-microphone.html

 

Also, the frequency response data of the speakers sometimes give me a dodgy feeling. Since they are based one different ±db.

 

For instance, TAD reference one speaker has a frequency response range from 21 Hz to 100 kHz but based on ±10 db. So the so-called "super wide FR range" might not be solid if looking at a smaller db such as ±2/3 db. 

 

Feel free to add more comment. 

 


Software: Roon, Tidal, HQplayer 

HQplayer PC: i9 7980XE, Titan Xp; i9 9900K, Titan V

DAC: T+A DAC8 DSD, exasound e12, iFi micro iDSD BL

USB tweaks: Intona, Uptone (ISO) regen, LPS-1, LPS-1.2, Sbooster Vbus2, Curious cables,  Certified HiSpeed USB cable

NAA: Logic CL100, Uptone JS-2

AMP: Spectral DMC 30SV, Spectral DMA 300

Speaker: Magico S3 MKII

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The Paradigm Persona series is much cheaper than TAD, the floorstanding models include built-in room correction EQ, and have beryllium midrange and tweeters just like TAD's highest end models.

 

As far as listening to ultrasonic performance, people being able to hear above 23KHz on military recruit hearing tests is almost unheard of, and this is with 18 year olds who still have great hearing. Trying to reproduce a frequency only bats can hear seems like a lost cause.

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4 hours ago, pippenainteasy said:

The Paradigm Persona series is much cheaper than TAD, the floorstanding models include built-in room correction EQ, and have beryllium midrange and tweeters just like TAD's highest end models.

Only the top-of-the-line floorstander, the 9H, has room EQ and only for the woofers.  None of the other PP models do (except the dedicated sub).


Kal Rubinson

Music in the Round

Senior Contributing Editor, Stereophile

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5 hours ago, pippenainteasy said:

The Paradigm Persona series is much cheaper than TAD, the floorstanding models include built-in room correction EQ, and have beryllium midrange and tweeters just like TAD's highest end models.

 

As far as listening to ultrasonic performance, people being able to hear above 23KHz on military recruit hearing tests is almost unheard of, and this is with 18 year olds who still have great hearing. Trying to reproduce a frequency only bats can hear seems like a lost cause.

 

1 hour ago, Kal Rubinson said:

Only the top-of-the-line floorstander, the 9H, has room EQ and only for the woofers.  None of the other PP models do (except the dedicated sub).

 

Well, what a coincidence. I'm about to pull the trigger for Paradigm persona 9H soon. Plan to use Spectral preamp and amp for it.   EQ bass and beryllium mid and tweeter. What a nice combo. Perfect for my medium size audio room. :)


Software: Roon, Tidal, HQplayer 

HQplayer PC: i9 7980XE, Titan Xp; i9 9900K, Titan V

DAC: T+A DAC8 DSD, exasound e12, iFi micro iDSD BL

USB tweaks: Intona, Uptone (ISO) regen, LPS-1, LPS-1.2, Sbooster Vbus2, Curious cables,  Certified HiSpeed USB cable

NAA: Logic CL100, Uptone JS-2

AMP: Spectral DMC 30SV, Spectral DMA 300

Speaker: Magico S3 MKII

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I'm surprised that after the years of discussion here that there is still so much speculation on this topic.  First, I think we can today fairly safely say that more of the benefit of DSD256, DSD512, etc comes from how filters can be implemented and what that does to not having artifacts in the 20-20kHz range, than the benefit of faithful reproduction of signals in the original recording above 20kHz (which most of us cannot hear anyway).  I also believe that the reason folks started looking at preamps, amps and speakers which could reproduce signals well north of 20Khz was the notion that if upsampling or DSD512 files did produce significant content above 20kHz, you wouldn't want the bandwidth limitations of the equipment causing their own in-audible-bandwidth artifacts with those frequencies, so better to be able to reproduce them (even if noise) since our ears can't hear them than move the problems we solved in D/A filtering to filtering in our equipment.

 

So, indirectly the question the OP is really posting is: "what will my, or any other speakers do with content that exceeds their upper frequency limitation and will that possibly cause them to produce artifacts in the audible range?"  If the answer is no, they just don't produce those signals but that inability also doesn't produce any effects in the 20-20kHz range, then you may not need your speakers to be able to work above 20kHz.  Of course, you would also need to confirm that this inability doesn't somehow cause feedback effects in your amplifier that may it produce audible artifacts.

 


Synology NAS>i7-6700/32GB/NVIDIA QUADRO M4000 Win10>Tidal>Roon>HQPlayer>Fiber Switch>Sonicorbiter SE (NAA)>REGEN>Oppo BDP-105D>Bryston SP3>Levinson No. 432 amps>Magnepan (MG20.1x2, CCR and MMC2x6)

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maybe not on topic, but excerpt from focal marketing:

 

FREQUENCY RESPONSE EXTENDED AT 40KHZ

Focal, after two years of research and development, produced a world first: a pure Beryllium inverted dome, able to cover more than five octaves (1000Hz – 40kHz). You may ask yourself why do we strive for an extended response at 40kHz, if the human ear can only hear up to 20kHz? If you can extend frequency response, you will improve the perception of transients and other micro details. As well, the linearity of the speaker’s response curve is mainly a function of three opposite parameters: lightness, rigidity and damping.

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t29d001-e0100.jpg

 

https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/diamond-dome-tweeters/seas-excel-t29d001-diamond-dome-tweeter-matched-pair/

 

Probably want to start with this. A 2-way+ speaker with the Seas T29D001 diamond dome. According to former M&K engineer and current owner of Ascend Acoustics, David Fabrikant states this is the only dome tweeter he's ever found to have outperformed the RAAL 70-20 ribbon tweeter.

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Louis,

If you're still in the market for sub-$15k active speakers, consider ATC SCM50ASLs, right at $15k, and Neumann KH420p (new version of Klein + Hummel O410) for $10k.  I adore ATCs, just fabulous, super reliable, and extremely versatile.  The KHs get similar reviews.


Mac Mini 2012 with 2.3 GHz i5 CPU and 16GB RAM running newest OS10.9x and Signalyst HQ Player software (occasionally JRMC), ethernet to Cisco SG100-08 GigE switch, ethernet to SOtM SMS100 Miniserver in audio room, sending via short 1/2 meter AQ Cinnamon USB to Oppo 105D, feeding balanced outputs to 2x Bel Canto S300 amps which vertically biamp ATC SCM20SL speakers, 2x Velodyne DD12+ subs. Each side is mounted vertically on 3-tiered Sound Anchor ADJ2 stands: ATC (top), amp (middle), sub (bottom), Mogami, Koala, Nordost, Mosaic cables, split at the preamp outputs with splitters. All transducers are thoroughly and lovingly time aligned for the listening position.

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I have KEF XQ5 loudspeakers, with a specified frequency response of 45Hz to 55kHz +/-3.0dB

 

They have what KEF called a "hypertweeter."  It was used on the first XQ range, as well as the Reference Series from that same period.  Retail on the XQ5 was $3000 US, I paid $2200 new in 2005.


请教别人一次是5分钟的傻子,从不请教别人是一辈子的傻子

"I know I chatter on far too much...but if you only knew how many things I want to say and don't, you'd give me some credit!"  -Anne of Green Gables

 

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Since the purpose of a playback system is to playback live recordings (not live audio sources), which are frequency-limited by recording microphones, there is no logic, I could understand (but, please, feel free to correct me), which would require to reproduce it up to 100kHz, maybe unless one doesn't care about a risk of adding "information" to the source signal which is never a good idea. Although certain audio tests (not recalling the source) confirm that human ear is capable of detecting "time smear" in the range of 10us, keep in mind that any frequency-dependent phase shifts of 10us or more (resulting in detectable tonal and transient faults) have nothing to do with 100kHz playback capability. Not only 100kHz drops badly at 10m distance it also has a sub-centimeter wavelength above 34kHz resulting in no practical ability to control its phase when (if ever) hearing it.

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FYI, my Monitor Audio Platinum PL100 II speakers claim output up to 100kHz with their modified AMT tweeter, though this is the -6db point.

 

Frequency Response (-6 dB - IEC 268-13)

40 Hz — 100 kHz

 

Dunno if they measure this way though.

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The guy that produces most of the best DSD recordings coming out of the US, Michael Bishop, uses ATC 150Actives for his work.   He has won an awful lot of grammys for the best DSD work over the years.  He originally worked for TelArc and is now part of a new venture called Five- Four productions.  Hiromi is a big customer of his.  I have some other recordings we use at Trade Shows of National Brass Ensemble and Eric Bibb and more.   All these larger ATC's are spec'd with a 20KHz limit but I know response is often to 30K +.

 

 I am interested in this supersonic response too, but I have already run into a lot of problems with it.  Managing response that high from a speaker means if you have a driver that can produce it, dispersion at 50K would be so narrow (in both planes) it may be a 1 degree beam emanating from the center of a very small fabric tweeter.  Getting yourself in the center of that beam 6 feet way is not too likely in a home.    Talk about a narrow sweet spot!   It is also extremely difficult to measure as microphones needed to measure that high are very rare and a expensive and  few (audio) measurement systems are built using that kind of response.  Saying a tweeter has response to 55K could be true, but who's gonna test it to be sure your claim is real?  You could just say that because theoretically it's possible (but you don't have the measurement equipment to be 100% sure and no one has the equipment to prove you are exaggerating).  With specs playing such large role in perceived value, it could become a marketing angle.  Without specifying a +/- level compared to 20-20 band, its could be down 48dB or more-and therefore isn't perceptible.  Its sort of like all that research on subliminal advertising- if its so subtle you can't perceive it, it has no affect, it doesn't work.  This ultra sonic area is one of those areas where twisting the truth and selling big claims that cannot be disproven could give one an advantage.  

 

Brad

 

 


Brad Lunde

www.LoneMountainAudio.com (High End Consumer Importer to the Trade) and www.TransAudioGroup.com (High End Pro Audio Importer to the Trade)

Brands we import to the US are ATC, Tube Tech, Drawmer, MUTEC, Bettermaker 

Brands from the US we distribute are A Designs, Auratone, Daking, LatchLake and Mojave   

 

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