I2S compatibility issue between W4S dac2 & Singxer SU-1, two beatiful pieces of hi-end products

[Franatic]

The reason there was much activity over the weekend was that an interesting "third party" had the inside info to the W4S i2s. So now his publishing is unofficially official........and W4S told him privately that his DSD mapping is correct.

Okay, enough. W4S is just not going to put on their website or state their i2s DSD protocol anywhere. They'll let vortecjr do it for them. 

I guess somewhere in here is a wish to make the DAC2 i2s input proprietary to W4S equipment as they probably have some plans for it and can control the interfacing issues.

The i2s input of the DAC2 has the potential to have the best sound quality of all its inputs. The format screams for standardization. If you use it be prepared to enter the Wild Wyred West.

[Franatic]

Leter from Singxer will now provide the fixes for the issues when using the W4S DAC2 i2s input with the Singxer SU-1.

 

There are 2 issues and fixes

1) New firmware that makes SU-1 compatible with the unique i2s pinout on the W4S DAC2. The W4S pinout varies from the original designation by W4S as PS Audio standard. Email Leter if you need this SU-1 firmware for use with the W4S DAC2. You can find the W4S i2s protocol only here:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1h5PMUBkldkpt1rCnAR4ZHYGZNeCe-vwIFyKWYMZWsX0/edit#gid=853411704

It is not listed on their website.

2) Special SU-1 with bypass capacitor installed that remedies a PCM selection problem in the DAC2 when used with the SU-1. Singxer maintains this is a DAC2 issue but can be corrected with the capacitor installed in the SU-1. No other DAC has this issue with the SU-1

 

You can email Leter at  [email protected]

He will sell you direct an SU-1 set up for the DAC2

 

I would like to add that getting this W4S/SU-1 i2s path worked out has been a personal venture of mine. Trying to get the complete correct W4S i2s pinout has been a very exasperating venture. It seems W4S was not prepared for development of their i2s input and lets just say they have not been enthusiastic about my efforts. I still feel it's been worthwhile.

 

The DAC2 i2s input via the SU-1 has outstanding sound quality, I feel it is quite superior to straight usb. I encourage others who want to get the best sound from their DAC2 to consider this. My DAC2 is the modified ESS 9038 suped-up version and it is sounding great.

 

P.S. Leter at Singxer has been most helpful. Despite some communication issue, we were able to work together to complete this project. Thanks, Leter

W4S was also initially helpful with an issue.

 

[drmike]

hello,

which firmware do i need to use i2s from the su-1 to the w4s dac2 dsd?

thanks,

drmike

[Franatic]

57 minutes ago, drmike said:

hello,

which firmware do i need to use i2s from the su-1 to the w4s dac2 dsd?

thanks,

drmike

I have working SU-1 firmware for the W4S DAC2V2 that solves the DSD phasing and Left/Right channel swapping issues. This was developed recently and sent to me by Leter.

You can email Leter at  [email protected]   He will send you the firmware.

 

[Nicholas_S]

On 6/16/2017 at 1:46 PM, Franatic said:

I have working SU-1 firmware for the W4S DAC2V2 that solves the DSD phasing and Left/Right channel swapping issues. This was developed recently and sent to me by Leter.

You can email Leter at  [email protected]   He will send you the firmware.

 

So does the new SU-1 firmware allow for proper operation with the W4S DAC2V2 I2S input or is the capacitor modification still required?

[Franatic]

13 minutes ago, Nicholas_S said:

So does the new SU-1 firmware allow for proper operation with the W4S DAC2V2 I2S input or is the capacitor modification still required?

It seems in most cases the capacitor fix will be required. There seems to be a matter of probability here in that not every W4S DAC has manifested the problem. The capacitor "fix" can be applied in either the W4S DAC or in the Singxer SU-1. An Italian friend of mine reported that his i2s PCM selection problem went away with a recent W4S firmware upgrade. Hopefully he can post something here.

I've tried to help forge a better solution to this issue but met much resistance so I have given up.

[Nicholas_S]

1 hour ago, Franatic said:

It seems in most cases the capacitor fix will be required. There seems to be a matter of probability here in that not every W4S DAC has manifested the problem. The capacitor "fix" can be applied in either the W4S DAC or in the Singxer SU-1. An Italian friend of mine reported that his i2s PCM selection problem went away with a recent W4S firmware upgrade. Hopefully he can post something here.

I've tried to help forge a better solution to this issue but met much resistance so I have given up.

 

 

So the question becomes "What happens if you order an SU-1 with the cap mod and your W4S DAC2V2 didn't need it?"

[Franatic]

24 minutes ago, Nicholas_S said:

 

 

So the question becomes "What happens if you order an SU-1 with the cap mod and your W4S DAC2V2 didn't need it?"

The bypass capacitor will ensure that the PCM/DSD selection works properly. It should not have an effect otherwise. You can order your Singxer SU-1 from Singxer with the capacitor already installed.

You can verify this with Leter if you order an SU-1 from him.

[Ienag]

4 hours ago, Franatic said:

It seems in most cases the capacitor fix will be required. There seems to be a matter of probability here in that not every W4S DAC has manifested the problem. The capacitor "fix" can be applied in either the W4S DAC or in the Singxer SU-1. An Italian friend of mine reported that his i2s PCM selection problem went away with a recent W4S firmware upgrade. Hopefully he can post something here.

I've tried to help forge a better solution to this issue but met much resistance so I have given up.

I can confirm with my Dac2 V1 the last firmware 2.4 solves many little problems

Everyone could ask to W4S

The real important thing is that Leter provided the right firmware

[Nicholas_S]

1 hour ago, Ienag said:

I can confirm with my Dac2 V1 the last firmware 2.4 solves many little problems

Everyone could ask to W4S

The real important thing is that Leter provided the right firmware

So do you have a capacitor in either the DAC or the SU-1 or are things working as they should without one?

[Ienag]

Without on both.

The real important thing in any case is the SU1 firmware now ok

[Franatic]

1 hour ago, Ienag said:

I can confirm with my Dac2 V1 the last firmware 2.4 solves many little problems

Everyone could ask to W4S

The real important thing is that Leter provided the right firmware

There are 3 issues we initially identified using the SU-1 with the W4S DAC2V2 DSDse when using the i2s input. This was when W4S maintained they were using the PS Audio i2s standard, which was proven to be false:

1) DSD and PCM have Left/Right channels oriented differently in PCM and DSD. Therefore if you use Switch 6 on the SU-1 you just swap which one is incorrect.

2) DSD has phase inversion where one channel is out of phase with the other. PCM is okay.

3) PCM is identified as DSD and plays only pops and clicks.

 

Issues 1 & 2 are fixed in new SU-1 firmware created by Singxer specifically for the W4S DAC (thanks Leter )

Issue 3 (if a problem on your W4S DAC) is fixed by the capacitor installation. Lenag says his issue #3 was also remedied by W4S firmware, which is not easy to update and we are not sure what is going on there.

 

I hope this clears things up for you. You can also try your luck emailing W4S as they are not participating in this thread anymore.

[Ienag]

Fran is perfectly  right

[jojeong8338]

8 minutes ago, Franatic said:

Lenag says his issue #3 was also remedied by W4S firmware

Hi Lenag, could you please let me know which version of W4S firmware fix #3 issue? I would ask my distributor for upgrading.

[Ienag]

I have 2.4 on V1 Dac 2 dsd se. I have tried only two identic dac 2 with the same SU1 without any cap

[Franatic]

19 minutes ago, jojeong8338 said:

Hi Lenag, could you please let me know which version of W4S firmware fix #3 issue? I would ask my distributor for upgrading.

jojeong, I believe you have the newest firmware from the 9038 chip V2 upgrade. I have the new firmware from the V2 upgrade and I have the PCM issue in my DAC. I do not think there is another firmware version you can use with the 9038 chip.

My DAC has firmware version 1.75SE

[Nicholas_S]

30 minutes ago, Franatic said:

jojeong, I believe you have the newest firmware from the 9038 chip V2 upgrade. I have the new firmware from the V2 upgrade and I have the PCM issue in my DAC. I do not think there is another firmware version you can use with the 9038 chip.

My DAC has firmware version 1.75SE

 

 

So your DAC/SU-1 combo simply doesn't play PCM?

[Franatic]

34 minutes ago, Nicholas_S said:

 

 

So your DAC/SU-1 combo simply doesn't play PCM?

 

I have the capacitor installed in the SU-1 and I have the new SU-1 firmware for W4S. My W4S DAC plays PCM and DSD perfectly. All the issues are fixed in my system.

 

The i2s input from the Singxer SU-1 into the DAC2V2 DSDse sounds fantastic. I recently had my DAC2 DSDse upgraded to V2 and added the SU-1. Each one has been a major improvement in sound quality. I can highly recommend this setup.

[Nicholas_S]

3 hours ago, Franatic said:

 I have the new firmware from the V2 upgrade and I have the PCM issue in my DAC. I do not think there is another firmware version you can use with the 9038 chip.  My DAC has firmware version 1.75SE

 

 

Thanks for the clarification.  I thought that you might still be having problems with PCM.

 

I had hoped that W4S firmware version 1.75SE might have put all issues to rest.

[jojeong8338]

2 hours ago, Franatic said:

I have the capacitor installed in the SU-1 and I have the new SU-1 firmware for W4S. My W4S DAC plays PCM and DSD perfectly. All the issues are fixed in my system.

Hi Franatic,

My setup is "MACBook Audirvana 3.0.4 ---<USB I/F>---  Singer SU-1(with 10pF) ---<I2S>--- DSD2V2se"

The test music resource file is 24bit-44.1K sampling.

When I try to configure oversampling in audirvana preferences setting menu, I cannot play normally.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

   Power of 2 sampling 2 oversampling only (2x, 4x, ...) : <?> cannot play

   Maximum sample rate upsampling : <?> cannot play

   Oversampling 2x only : <?> cannot play

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

None-oversampling mode - None, To DSD (set to DSD128) mode works well.

PCM noise issue is not fixed perfectly in my system.

The strange thing.... Noisy sound is played when I change 10pF to over 33pF for PCM noise reduction in SU-1.

I'm not sure that it depends still on PCM noise.

 

For the reference, I changed SU-1 to L.K.S USB-100 and tested over I2S.

W4S DAC2V2se played all types and all sampling rate as well as oversampled rate.

 

Could you test with my oversampling configuration with audirvana in your side?

 

Thanks in advance.

Juno

[Franatic]

Hi Juno

 

My system can upsample every possible combo DSD or PCM up to DSD128 and PCM384 with no issues through Jriver. My system is Windows based.

 

I've already invested way too much time and effort in this venture. However, I will offer some tips.

 

1) Possibly the upsampling in either Audirvana or the macbook is the issue. Download the Jriver trial version and try upsampling with that.

2) the recommended cap value is 15pf

3) Try various file types and bit rates through the 2L Nordic test bench here:

http://www.2l.no/hires/

 

Let us know the results. I'm wondering if the PCM/DSD identification issue (capacitor fix) is manifesting when you upsample.

[sligolad]

Been watching this thread for some time and I must say well done Fran, surprised at the lack of thanks for all the work against what appears to be a very poor respone from W4S.

As someone who has a selection of Dacs from Meitner to Lampizator and other in between I have been so far been very impressed with the support and technical backup from all vendors I have dealt with so far.

 

While it sounds like you have reached a very rewarding outcome in sound this whole experience has certainly put me off ever considering W4S for a DAC purchase.

 

Lets hope there are not too many other manufactureres out there as obstructive to progressing to continued development of digital playback systems.

 

Well done on your perseverance and a sucessful outcome and well done to Singxer.

[Franatic]

Thanks for the support, sligolad! Very much appreciated. It was a difficult task to get the correct i2s information from W4S. I was very disappointed in the resistance I received.

 

One of the joys of this hobby is system building. Using the i2s for an input is something gaining favor as a preferred path for highest sound quality and its high bit rate capability. I had hoped W4S would be more supportive of this kind of initiative and development. A friend of mine discontinued using W4S products because of this type of unsupportive behavior. I like their products but will likely look elsewhere in the future.