I2S compatibility issue between W4S dac2 & Singxer SU-1, two beatiful pieces of hi-end products

[vortecjr]

55 minutes ago, Wyred 4 Sound said:

We spoke with JR yesterday and his pin configuration chart should be updated and correct. What "misleading information" are you referring to? We posted the correct pin configuration early on in this thread, it has not changed.

I tell people to link to the database instead of posting images of the pin assignments. The DB is live in real time and updates are immediate. My concern is that pin 18 doesn't clearly explain which side (source or receiver) is 5V in or 5V out.   

[Wyred 4 Sound]

31 minutes ago, vortecjr said:

I tell people to link to the database instead of posting images of the pin assignments. The DB is live in real time and updates are immediate. My concern is that pin 18 doesn't clearly explain which side (source or receiver) is 5V in or 5V out.   

Agreed. At the time I wasn't aware of that live doc, and we had an old and erroneous one. Posters on this thread were wanting the config so we posted the image, which is accurate. It should have been clearly understood in the context of the post that this was our DAC configuration, thus 5v out. The reason for the 5v out is to power the DAC of the isolated source. If it's not needed, that pin can simply go unused.

[Bamber]

Tony,

 

Are W4S planning a USB DDC with a I2S connection which will work with your own pin layout?

 

 

[Wyred 4 Sound]

8 minutes ago, Bamber said:

Tony,

 

Are W4S planning a USB DDC with a I2S connection which will work with your own pin layout?

 

Yes, this has inspired us to look into this. I don't have a clear timeframe at this point, though.

[Bamber]

It would be perfect if it had an updated version of the Recovery with GI built in, good clock(s) and top spec regulators.

 

I think I will wait for a few months to see if there is any further news.

[vortecjr]

1 hour ago, Wyred 4 Sound said:

Agreed. At the time I wasn't aware of that live doc, and we had an old and erroneous one. Posters on this thread were wanting the config so we posted the image, which is accurate. It should have been clearly understood in the context of the post that this was our DAC configuration, thus 5v out. The reason for the 5v out is to power the DAC of the isolated source. If it's not needed, that pin can simply go unused.

That is why I wasn't showing before:)

[MINORISUKE]

On 2017/5/20 at 10:09 PM, vortecjr said:

I made this database of i2s pin assignments back when we use to make the Signature Series Rendu:

http://www.i2s.sonore.us

The description of SU-1 is incorrect.  SU-1 is configurable in four patterns with dip switches and firmware version.

See my post above with four figures.

You should not put misleading information without an approval of Singxer.

[vortecjr]

Most of the time emails are sent requesting information and most of the time manufacturers do not bother to respond. On the tab named index there is a self explanatory warning stating, "Note: pin assignments are unconfirmed and for DIY use only" I keep the database as a curiosity only...If you don't like the information don't refer to it. The information on Singxer was obtained via advertisements of their product which at the time was confirmed on several auction sites. The image of the pin assignment referenced is attached under the pin assignment for all to reference. It's the best information we had at the time. The information you posted, which is not official by your standards, is new and will be incorporated as best as possible.

[Franatic]

I know I should "chill" but the latest posts by W4S and vortecjr made it temporarily impossible.

 

Leter (Singxer) has said he will not make new firmware for W4S until they disclose completely their i2s protocol, including DSD. This is what W4S has disclosed:

Do you see any reference to DSD here? The answer is no. I have asked multiple times for this and Leter has asked privately and received nothing.

 

Now I see it has magically appeared here:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1h5PMUBkldkpt1rCnAR4ZHYGZNeCe-vwIFyKWYMZWsX0/pub?hl=en_US&hl=en_US&hl=en_US&output=html#

 

But the sad thing is we were just told by the publisher that it is unconfirmed and only for DIYers.

So W4S still has disclosed nothing that Leter can make firmware for.

Thanks a lot W4S.

I'm gonna go chill now..........everybody have a nice weekend. 

[Ienag]

4 hours ago, Franatic said:

 

 

Leter (Singxer) has said he will not make new firmware for W4S until they disclose completely their i2s protocol, including DSD. This is what W4S has disclosed:

 

 

If the solution seems to be near for us and all future customers why W4S does't put the end to this discussion publishing what is requested to solve the problem?

I don't think it is a  big secret and on the other side we finally could close the issue.

[MINORISUKE]

10 hours ago, vortecjr said:

.....

On the tab named index there is a self explanatory warning stating, "Note: pin assignments are unconfirmed and for DIY use only" I keep the database as a curiosity only.

.....

Thank you for your explanation, although I have been aware of your warning statement.

 

Now I understand the issue of W4S DAC and SU-1 comes from the fact that the users simply have ignored this warning and believed the accuracy of the list, although it was for the publisher's curiosity only.

Neither W4S nor Sonore forced you to believe it.  Reviewing their posts in this thread gave me an impression that they would take no responsibility.

Apparently, Singxer has nothing to do with it, either.  It was your own decision to trust the Sonore list and to purchase SU-1.

(1) You bought the W4S DAC.

(2) You found on W4S official site that the I2S pin assignment was described in the Sonore list.

(3) You found "PS Audio" in the field of W4S DAC and thought it was PS Audio compliant.

(4) You checked the product information of SU-1, found it was PS Audio compliant, and ordered one.

(5) You found the issue.

(6) W4S disclosed its pin assignment, which was different from that of PS Audio, and deleted the link to the Sonore list.

(7) The Sonore list has been modified.  The description about PS Audio compliance was removed, and you see the above-mentioned evidence any more.

 

[Franatic]

Minorisuke, I used steps 2, 3 & 4 above and determined i2s should work with the SU-1 and DAC2. However, I did one step further and emailed W4S support (Tony), notified them what I was going to try and was told it should work. I pointed out the logical projection of compatibility using steps 2, 3 & 4. Tony completely agreed.

The problem is once their stated i2s pinout was proven wrong, W4S went into cover up mode. All we needed to do was openly straighten out the issues. Hey, its a new use of an old protocol. I have no problem working through issues. You would think everyone would be on the same page with that. W4S behavior here has really left me confounded.

[vortecjr]

8 hours ago, Franatic said:

I know I should "chill" but the latest posts by W4S and vortecjr made it temporarily impossible.

 

Leter (Singxer) has said he will not make new firmware for W4S until they disclose completely their i2s protocol, including DSD. This is what W4S has disclosed:

Do you see any reference to DSD here? The answer is no. I have asked multiple times for this and Leter has asked privately and received nothing.

 

Now I see it has magically appeared here:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1h5PMUBkldkpt1rCnAR4ZHYGZNeCe-vwIFyKWYMZWsX0/pub?hl=en_US&hl=en_US&hl=en_US&output=html#

 

But the sad thing is we were just told by the publisher that it is unconfirmed and only for DIYers.

So W4S still has disclosed nothing that Leter can make firmware for.

Thanks a lot W4S.

I'm gonna go chill now..........everybody have a nice weekend. 

There is nothing magical about it. The information has been on the database for years. This is preferred link though: www.i2s.sonore.us

[Franatic]

1 minute ago, vortecjr said:

There is nothing magical about it. The information has been on the database for years. This is preferred link though: www.i2s.sonore.us

How did it get there? Was it given to you from W4S? Or did you figure it out yourself? Has the DSD protocol changed since the incorrect W4S i2s pinout that you published changed?

I didn't keep a copy of their old pinout data so I can't compare.

 

[vortecjr]

4 hours ago, MINORISUKE said:

Thank you for your explanation, although I have been aware of your warning statement.

 

Now I understand the issue of W4S DAC and SU-1 comes from the fact that the users simply have ignored this warning and believed the accuracy of the list, although it was for the publisher's curiosity only.

Neither W4S nor Sonore forced you to believe it.  Reviewing their posts in this thread gave me an impression that they would take no responsibility.

Apparently, Singxer has nothing to do with it, either.  It was your own decision to trust the Sonore list and to purchase SU-1.

(1) You bought the W4S DAC.

(2) You found on W4S official site that the I2S pin assignment was described in the Sonore list.

(3) You found "PS Audio" in the field of W4S DAC and thought it was PS Audio compliant.

(4) You checked the product information of SU-1, found it was PS Audio compliant, and ordered one.

(5) You found the issue.

(6) W4S disclosed its pin assignment, which was different from that of PS Audio, and deleted the link to the Sonore list.

(7) The Sonore list has been modified.  The description about PS Audio compliance was removed, and you see the above-mentioned evidence any more.

 

You say it is a "fact", but how do you know everyone looked at the data base.  How do you know every user "ignored" anything. How do you know everyone checked with Singxer. The database it a curiosity of mine and I'm happy to share it with other who are also curious about it. So what. I don't speak for W4S, but I doubt they forced anyone to do anything and I don't force people to do things. I'm not involved in the transaction and I have not implied that I would take any responsibility. Why do you so quickly dismiss Singxer of any responsibility. Based on your overreaching assumptions so far surely you could make up some facts to involve them. In 1-5 you keep saying "You" and since you are replying to me I assume you mean me. Let me remind you I don't have either product and so no on 1 thru 6 for me. Now you are looking for evidence. That sounds legal to me maybe I should excuse myself. Anyway, like I said before the document is live and updated as new information comes in.  

 

There are two issues here though and keep ignoring the second one: 1. Does the specification allow devices to play together even if they do not have exact matching pin assignments. The answer is yes and no depending on what is different and the format being played. There are to many variables to get into it so I don't consult on it and you have experiment to know. Remember this is for DIY after all. 2. Is the source compatible from a signal perspective and will playback have noise or clicks or some other weird issue. The specifications give no indication about the signal and what it should be. For example, what frequency master clock is needed, what voltage is the signal, what jitter rage is acceptable. One manufacture has a product update and overnight and certain i2s sources became incompatible even though they did not change the pin assignment.

 

There is a strong following of i2s/DSD users and it's a shame that more companies don't agree on the same specification. I don't know if these kinds of threads hurt or help the cause though. i2s/DSD is the Wild Wild West and it's no wonder companies stay away from it as an external input.    

[rickca]

4 minutes ago, vortecjr said:

what jitter rage is acceptable

I'm sure you meant jitter range, but I still think you have coined a great new audiophile term jitter rage.

[vortecjr]

3 minutes ago, rickca said:

I'm sure you meant jitter range, but I still think you have coined a great new audiophile term jitter rage.

HAHA. Let's call it a Freudian slip and leave it in as is. 

[Franatic]

I can understand the difficulty of mapping so many i2s devices. Obviously whatever vortecjr maps is a moot point because it is unofficial, and sometimes incorrect.

 

I do not understand how a company can't/won't map the i2s input of their own device. I've been asking W4S for over a month to disclose their DSD i2s mapping so Singxer can make new firmware for it. W4S just won't do it. I concur with Singxer's position in holding back until they do.

 

The i2s sounds fantastic with the SU-1/DAC2 combo. I'm getting support from Singxer which I can't discuss here. 

 

I've tried to help forge a clear easy path for others to follow. I'm throwing in the towel. 

[MINORISUKE]

6 hours ago, vortecjr said:

.....

In 1-5 you keep saying "You" and since you are replying to me I assume you mean me.

.....

No, "You" in my post from (1) to (7) meant the owner of W4S DAC + SU-1, not you.

[vortecjr]

W4S has confirmed to me that the pin assignment on the database is correct. 

[Franatic]

46 minutes ago, vortecjr said:

W4S has confirmed to me that the pin assignment on the database is correct. 

Really?? That's hilarious 

[MINORISUKE]

42 minutes ago, vortecjr said:

W4S has confirmed to me that the pin assignment on the database is correct. 

Everybody can post the same sentence.  It has no meaning unless stated by W4S officially.

As you said, your curiosity list is "live" and may be modified at any moment.  A link to any variable information makes only confusion again.

[vortecjr]

I don't see the humor in this. I have other things to do...if you guys don't want me help then stop complaining and take the bull by the horn. 

[Franatic]

3 minutes ago, vortecjr said:

I don't see the humor in this. I have other things to do...if you guys don't want me help then stop complaining and take the bull by the horn. 

vortecjr, I appreciate how you've tried to help here. We don't need statements from you.  We are asking W4S to state their i2s protocol (with DSD), so that Singxer can make firmware. Your list is unofficial.

I'm laughing because W4S can tell you that is their protocol, but won't list it on their website............and won't tell us here.

[Wyred 4 Sound]

We hope everyone had a nice long weekend! Fran and Minor sure were busy. Jeez...between their dogpiling it got a little hard for us to breathe under here! Guys, we frankly don't have time for the drama that some of you seem to enjoy stirring up publicly instead of reaching out to us directly. We're not huge fans of forums largely for this reason. As we've stated before, if anyone wishes to get direct answers instead of making assumptions, accusations and insults, contact us. For this reason, this will be our last post here. It's tiring monitoring some of the peanuts in this gallery. Below are our 'official' responses. If anything else is needed, please contact us.

 

On 5/27/2017 at 4:08 AM, Franatic said:

The problem is once their stated i2s pinout was proven wrong, W4S went into cover up mode. All we needed to do was openly straighten out the issues.

 

'Openly straighten out the issues'... How would we do this beyond publishing the correct diagram, which we did? There was no attempted 'cover up', there was a realization. And once we realized this we gave you the correct diagram. 

 

On 5/26/2017 at 7:16 PM, Franatic said:

Leter (Singxer) has said he will not make new firmware for W4S until they disclose completely their i2s protocol, including DSD.

This is news to us. The last time we had any communication with Leter, we had no reason to think he didn't have what he needed, including the info for DSD. We've received NO communication from Singxer that reflects what you say.

 

On 5/26/2017 at 11:26 PM, Ienag said:

If the solution seems to be near for us and all future customers why W4S does't put the end to this discussion publishing what is requested to solve the problem?

As we've stated, the chart we posted here is accurate, and then later, we affirmed the chart by vortecjr was good. Thus, it's already been published twice.

 

On 5/27/2017 at 9:00 AM, Franatic said:

I do not understand how a company can't/won't map the i2s input of their own device. I've been asking W4S for over a month to disclose their DSD i2s mapping so Singxer can make new firmware for it. W4S just won't do it. I concur with Singxer's position in holding back until they do.

See the above 2 responses.

 

23 hours ago, MINORISUKE said:

On 5/29/2017 at 3:59 PM, vortecjr said:

W4S has confirmed to me that the pin assignment on the database is correct. 

Everybody can post the same sentence.  It has no meaning unless stated by W4S officially.

We've already done this.

 

22 hours ago, Franatic said:

I'm laughing because W4S can tell you that is their protocol, but won't list it on their website............and won't tell us here.

Broken record... see last 3 responses.

 

Cheers,

Wyred 4 Sound