I2S compatibility issue between W4S dac2 & Singxer SU-1, two beatiful pieces of hi-end products

[Cyrus]

On 4/16/2017 at 5:48 PM, Bamber said:

I have a lot of respect for W4S as they have provided perfect after sales support to me here in the UK.  I purchased the original DAC2 which I later found had a volume balance issue.  EJ shipped a new lid with the new firmware to fix the issue and it didn't cost me anything.

 

I still have the original emails and that is why I continue to purchase their products.  Hopefully if they find the fault is on their side they will offer a free fix like before.  I only received the new DAC2V2 SE from the UK dealer on 5th April so would expect them to fix any issue at their expense.

 

I like to experiment with different connections and intend to purchase the SU-1 and possibly the new UpTone Regen ISO.  I want to compare them against the Recovery to get the best possible sound from this reference DAC.

 

 

+1

 

@Franatic @lenag  and others with this issue.

 

Similar to @Bamber I had an issue with one of  W4S's products, one of the first W4S Recovery units and my Schiit Yggdrasil were not playing nice together. This was handled professionally and with genuine customer focused efforts (others also ended up having an issue similar to mine). Tony and EJ and the other members of the W4S team are running a class operation and I am certain that they will come through for you. It's in their best interest to do so.

 

Having run a small business, I am familiar with some of the challenges experienced when the company is likely looking into and trying to address and resolve the issue while also doing their best to manage other aspects of their business and tend to time sensitive priorities.

 

I'd be frustrated also, so I understand and empathise with your position as a customer...since I am one and have gone through similar situations, and not just with W4S.

 

I know I'm guilty of not doing this, but when I do...things work themselves out. Be patient and step back...and consider all that makes our hobby a wonderful one and such a satisfying one.

 

I also want to recognize @Franatic and @lenag for their dedication and efforts on resolving this issue and getting everyone involved with the fix. That takes time and energy and leadership. 

 

I've been looking at another DAC (not W4S) that has the potential for i2S implementation and with the Singxer SU-1...so I'm definitely interested in the outcome of your efforts.

 

All the best to everyone!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[MINORISUKE]

Since W4S replied, I am going to post only the following point at this moment.

 

The patch firmware Leter has made is just to identify the cause.  To make it as an official release under Singxer's quality measure, lots of time is needed.  This can be done only after an official request from W4S with a certain business agreement.
For owners of HiFace EVO TWO, Hydra Z, etc., W4S has to ask all of these manufacturers to make a firmware patch, respectively, if they decide they won't change their firmware.

[Franatic]

1 minute ago, MINORISUKE said:

Since W4S replied, I am going to post only the following point at this moment.

 

The patch firmware Leter has made is just to identify the cause.  To make it as an official release under Singxer's quality measure, lots of time is needed.  This can be done only after an official request from W4S with a certain business agreement.
For owners of HiFace EVO TWO, Hydra Z, etc., W4S has to ask all of these manufacturers to make a firmware patch, respectively, if they decide they won't change their firmware.

Minorisuke, do we know if Hydra-Z and HiFace EVO TWO have the DSD phasing issue?

 

Thank you for all your effort assisting us here, very much appreciated by me.

[Ienag]

1 hour ago, Franatic said:

Minorisuke, do we know if Hydra-Z and HiFace EVO TWO have the DSD phasing issue?

 

Thank you for all your effort assisting us here, very much appreciated by me.

Hydra - Z , after a firmware update doesn't have problem anymore. My friend has both Hydra and Singxer

[ksalno]

I have been happily using a Hydra Z with W4S DAC2V2SE for about a month. I have not heard any phase issues with DSD or PCM. I listen in a near-field environment using studio monitors at my workstation but the imaging is rock solid in the center with each instrument properly placed in the sound stage. I have whatever firmware the unit shipped with when I bought it. As far as I can see on the Audiobyte website, there are no releases of new firmware available for download.

[Ienag]

1 hour ago, MINORISUKE said:

Since W4S replied, I am going to post only the following point at this moment.

 

The patch firmware Leter has made is just to identify the cause.  To make it as an official release under Singxer's quality measure, lots of time is needed.  This can be done only after an official request from W4S with a certain business agreement.
For owners of HiFace EVO TWO, Hydra Z, etc., W4S has to ask all of these manufacturers to make a firmware patch, respectively, if they decide they won't change their firmware.

 

 

Please Minorisuke tell us what is your relationship with Singxer because it seems that you are rapresenting Singxer and its position here.

 

Audiobyte, as many other manufacturers of interfaces or brindge, has done a dedicated firmware for their customers. It's normal and W4S indipendent if they want to sell their product also to W4S owners

 

It's not a lost of time if All W4S owners could buy singxer without any problems on I2S.

 

Instead I think it's a demonstration of strength for a new Brand like Singxer and also a veri high customer attention.

 

Seems like you won't our problem solved and I don't understand why

 

 

[Franatic]

11 minutes ago, Ienag said:

Hydra - Z , after a firmware update doesn't have problem anymore. My friend has both Hydra and Singxer

Lenag, did the Hydra-Z have the phase shift on DSD with the DAC2 before the firmware update? Is this firmware specifically for the W4S? Does your friend even have a W4S DAC2?

We need very specific info if we are going to understand this issue. It seems from what Minorisuke says, the DAC2 is different than the PS Audio standard on the DSD phasing. Does the Hydra-Z have firmware for the DAC2 or settings for the DAC2 that are different from PS Audio for this issue? Its frustrating I can't get clarity on this.

[Ienag]

22 minutes ago, ksalno said:

 I have whatever firmware the unit shipped with when I bought it. As far as I can see on the Audiobyte website, there are no releases of new firmware available for download.

 

My friend Alberto was one of the first owner of  Hydra and he has to send the hydra to Nicolae of Audiobyte to understand the initial problem and modify the firmware.

It was very painless and it wasn't necessary all this dicussion.

Probably now you just have the right firmware.  

 

[MINORISUKE]

Note that absolute polarity can be checked precisely only with measuring equipment, which Leter always does.
Try the absolute polarity blind test I quoted in my previous post.

[Ienag]

19 minutes ago, Franatic said:

Lenag, did the Hydra-Z have the phase shift on DSD with the DAC2 before the firmware update? Is this firmware specifically for the W4S? Does your friend even have a W4S DAC2?

We need very specific info if we are going to understand this issue. It seems from what Minorisuke says, the DAC2 is different than the PS Audio standard on the DSD phasing. Does the Hydra-Z have firmware for the DAC2 or settings for the DAC2 that are different from PS Audio for this issue? Its frustrating I can't get clarity on this.

 

My friend has a W4S Dac2 and when he bought Hydra he has to send back the Hydra to solve the problem and now seems to be solved for ever

[Franatic]

1 hour ago, Ienag said:

 

My friend has a W4S Dac2 and when he bought Hydra he has to send back the Hydra to solve the problem and now seems to be solved for ever

So evidently there is custom Hydra software for the W4S DAC2 that the PS Audio DACs don't require.

Interesting 

[jojeong8338]

My test result :

Aging over 200hours.

I already had applied ECO(cap) for PCM noise issue.

With regards to HDMI cable, I made DIY cable with 99.99% silver line and shielding - about 20cm.

Sound is fantastic and deep, comparing to 9018.

Audirvana3.0.4 + JitterBug + USB reclocker + DAC2v2 USB input : PCM & DSD - Sound image focusing OK.

Audirvana3.0.4 + JitterBug+ Singxer SU-1(v202, dip switch all off) + DAC2v2 I2S input: PCM OK, DSD sound focusing is distracted. For example, I cannot imagine the instrument position in detail with DSD source files.

Maybe you already know this situation.

Anyway, I hope to get the reasonable solution ASAP.

Thanks in advance.

Juno

 

 

[Franatic]

Thank you Juno for the very detailed post. The description you have given for playing DSD via the Singxer/DAC2 i2s is certainly how a stereo track's imaging manifests with an out of phase channel.

 

A better way to really experience the effects of the phase inversion is by playing a mono track in DSD. I have an early The Who album in mono DSD and when I played the track you could really tell. If you moved from side to side you could hear the sound appear to switch from one speaker to the other and never collect in the center. When I played the same track in PCM, the sound stayed collected in the center, as it should.

 

Of course, an oscilloscope is the definitive method for determining phase inversion. This issue has been verified by Leter of Singxer in this way. W4S has said nothing so far. We hope they will eventually get around to testing and commenting on this issue.

 

Congratulations on being able to apply the capacitor fix for the PCM selection issue. That takes some skill!

[jojeong8338]

My additional test result to share:

 

Precondition in preferences: 

-Native DSD Capability : DSD over PCM standard 1.1

-Low level playback options : Exclusive access mode, Integer mode enable

 

I have tested the below both files

Source file A (16-44.1K)

Source file B (DSD64)

changing "Preferences - Upsampling" for USB and I2S.

1. MACBook Audirvana 3.0.4 + USB I/F +  DSD2V2se

 

<16-44.1K>----------------------------------------------------------------------------

None : 44.1K

Power of 2 sampling 2 oversampling only (2x, 4x, ...) : 352.8K

Maximum sample rate upsampling : 384K

Oversampling 2x only : 88.2K

To DSD (set to DSD128) : DSD128

<DSD64>----------------------------------------------------------------------------

None : DSD64

Power of 2 sampling 2 oversampling only (2x, 4x, ...) : DSD64

Maximum sample rate upsampling : DSD64

Oversampling 2x only : DSD64

To DSD (set to DSD128) : DSD64

 

2. MACBook Audirvana 3.0.4 + USB I/F +  Singer SU-1 + I2S + DSD2V2se

 

<16-44.1K>----------------------------------------------------------------------------

None : 44.1K

Power of 2 sampling 2 oversampling only (2x, 4x, ...) : <?> cannot play

Maximum sample rate upsampling : <?> cannot play

Oversampling 2x only : <?> cannot play

To DSD (set to DSD128) : DSD128

<DSD64>----------------------------------------------------------------------------

None : DSD64

Power of 2 sampling 2 oversampling only (2x, 4x, ...) : DSD64

Maximum sample rate upsampling : DSD64

Oversampling 2x only : DSD64

To DSD (set to DSD128) : DSD64

 

My concern is what SU-1 cannot play some of upsampling cases as I mentioned in #2 case.

USB 384 combo board in DSD2V2se can handle all types of input sources.

 

In this case, Singxer needs to look into it.

Have you ever experienced this kind of issue or limitation?

Does Singxer need to look into it?

 

Thanks,

Juno

[Franatic]

I have no problem upsampling/converting any file or bit rate via the SU-1/W4S combo using Jriver. I can play/convert to Dop up to DSD128 with Jplay/Jriver combo. I can upsample any PCM file up to 384, no problem here.

 

I am 2 pc streamer via Jplay Asio KS streaming output.

[Wyred 4 Sound]

On 4/21/2017 at 8:18 PM, Franatic said:

W4S has said nothing so far. We hope they will eventually get around to testing and commenting on this issue.

 

Fran, please be patient - I only have one hand to type with so hoping we can clear this up when Tony returns to help put my thoughts down. Please note that our I2S implementations work together when using both sides from our company. When introducing other products such as the Singxer or Hydra, it is on them to properly work with our gear if they are making the device to work with others. I can understand the frustration but the attitudes and mentality here is bothersome when I/we always go out of our way to help the customer!

EJ

[Franatic]

hi e j, I am typing my response with one hand in your honor.  so no capital letters. i hope you heal quickly, sorry to hear of your accident. i will be patient. you guys have been great in support.......

the problem i have is that singxer has tested the su-1 with the ps audio directstream jr and had no dsd inversion. also, the ps audio pwt which you say you test with, outputs dop not native dsd. if that is the case, then you are not testing native dsd, which is what the su-1 outputs. the dac2 is evidently inverting one channel that the ps audio directstream junior does not. minorisuke has tested this for singxer....or if they based polarity on the ds jr and it has an issue....i don't know

i am inputting dop via jplay asio kernel streaming into the su-1 and outputting native dsd. to the dac2.

something doesn't add up here. i hope we can get some clarity on who's inverting what. the good news is that i2s with the su-1/dac2v2 combo sounds amazing. lets figure it out

[GUTB]

10 minutes ago, Franatic said:

hi e j, I am typing my response with one hand in your honor.  so no capital letters. i hope you heal quickly, sorry to hear of your accident. i will be patient. you guys have been great in support.......

the problem i have is that singxer has tested the su-1 with the ps audio directstream jr and had no dsd inversion. also, the ps audio pwt which you say you test with, outputs dop not native dsd. if that is the case, then you are not testing native dsd, which is what the su-1 outputs. the dac2 is evidently inverting one channel that the ps audio directstream junior does not. minorisuke has tested this for singxer....or if they based polarity on the ds jr and it has an issue....i don't know

i am inputting dop via jplay asio kernel streaming into the su-1 and outputting native dsd. to the dac2.

something doesn't add up here. i hope we can get some clarity on who's inverting what. the good news is that i2s with the su-1/dac2v2 combo sounds amazing. lets figure it out

 

So, now that the AXPONA excuse has run out, the message will be "tough bananas?" Lol. Your room sounded so good -- too bad I won't consider the DAC2 now.

 

I guess it's up to Singxer to do the right thing!

[Ienag]

55 minutes ago, Wyred 4 Sound said:

 

 Please note that our I2S implementations work together when using both sides from our company. When introducing other products such as the Singxer or Hydra, it is on them to properly work with our gear if they are making the device to work with others.

 

Dear E.J., waiting for your thoughts, I hope you come back soon.

I want to underline that your position is not completely fare in my opinion.

Let me explain what I mean; there were two problems with I2S connection between W4S Dac 2 and Singxer SU1

 

PCM noise.  In this case I have done a test with a friend of mine who owns the same dac, we have both a W4S DAC2 DsDSE.  On my dac it was necessary to sold a cap while My friend's dac can properly reproduce pcm through I2S and SU1 without problem and any cap.

The only difference between the Dacs is the firmware, yes the firmware, the one on my friend's dac is newer so I think you have corrected something on last versions.

Could you explain what the cap does, I've an idea. take in consideration tha the cap can be soldered also on your dac solving equally the problem. 

But it's also true that I can't update the firmware on my dac because W4S asked me to send it to the factory (from Italy)  and you should admit it's not possible and  quite  "bothersome" at the same time.

 

DSD inverted phase on one channel.  Here I agree with you, Singxer could adjust a firmware to solve the problem.

But also in this case you have declared W4S is using PS-audio "standard"  but perhaps this is not completely true because someone does't have any problem with PS-audio Dac.

Now  I think you could help your customers collaborating with Singxer and giving to Singxer only the necessary information to easily include your I2S implentation in its next firmware hoping that it will be provide sooner or later.

 

At the and it's true thet We had spent our money and at the same time it is also true that We can't solve these problems.

 

 

 

 

 

[MINORISUKE]

As for absolute polarity swap, WS4 has to prove their specifications to be "PS Audio compliant," or they should "amend" their pin assingment to the current real one.
If it turns out not to be the same as that of PS Audio, some manufacturers of a DDC or a transport with HDMI LVDS I2S/DSD output may lose their interest in keeping the compatibility with WS4 DACs, whereas the other may try to make a special version of firmware.  For this purpose, the real pin assignment is needed.  I cannot accept their statement "it is on them to properly work with our gear" without assuring W4S pin assignment being hundred percent compliant to that of PS Audio.  The only reference is PS Audio products and nobody else's.

[Bimmer100]

On 4/16/2017 at 10:20 AM, ksalno said:

Can we get a specification of the capacitor and maybe even a link to Mouser or someplace where we can order one? This looks like it will require a very fine soldering job. 

http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Murata-Electronics/GQM1885C1H150JB01D/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMsDsvR9Yj%2fex0tXX08Kd1fw

 

mouser sells these along with digikey and other companies.

 

0603 15pF 50volts C0G 5%

 

 

this is the exact cap that leter used to fix the Dac. 

[MINORISUKE]

3 hours ago, Bimmer100 said:

.....

this is the exact cap that leter used to fix the Dac. 

I wonder how this statement not given by Leter can be confirmed.

[Bimmer100]

30 minutes ago, MINORISUKE said:

I wonder how this statement not given by Leter can be confirmed.

simply because leter made the statement. I talk with him almost daily since im a singxer dealer.. and directly have been working with him on this issue. hoping this was helpful to those planning to fix the issue on their own.

 

 

[MINORISUKE]

35 minutes ago, Bimmer100 said:

.....

I talk with him almost daily since im a singxer dealer..

.....

Then I do not think I stay involved in this issue.

I thought only personal import of SU-1 directly from China was possible.  At least in EU, this model cannot be sold without CE.

I really appreciate those dealers bearing the cost of acquiring the necessary certificates and keeping the same Chinese price.

[Ienag]

2 hours ago, Bimmer100 said:

simply because leter made the statement. I talk with him almost daily since im a singxer dealer.. and directly have been working with him on this issue. hoping this was helpful to those planning to fix the issue on their own.

 

 

 

Hi Tim, very interesting and enjoing the articles I have red on your website.

Thank you for the further information.

Do you know if Leter is working on a new version of firmware for dsd problem with W4S?

This problem remains with uncertain future.