I2S compatibility issue between W4S dac2 & Singxer SU-1, two beatiful pieces of hi-end products

[MINORISUKE]

There is already a technical solution.

As I posted in the other thtead, Leter of Singxer has already finshed a firmware patch, but will not release it until W4S contacts him and makes it clear that nothing is wrong with SU-1.

As the world's first evaluator of SU-1 prototype, I have been in close touch with him.  He informed me of the W4S issue yesterday, and I advised him to take a proper action to keep the brand value of Singxer.

[MINORISUKE]

Leter of Singxer added a capacitor inside W4S to bypass noise for PCM playback.
Uploading this picture was approved by Leter.

[MINORISUKE]

I hope W4S will wake up themselves.

Other PS Audio compatible DDCs such as HiFace EVO TWO encounter the same issue of absolute polarity swap.

In case W4S does not admit their fault but fix them secretly from the next batch, there will be two versions in the market and nobody will buy, as an old defect stock may come at any moment.  Its second-hand market will also disappear.

Apparently, DSD input was not tested, as they used PS Audio PWT which supported PCM only, in addition to their confidence that their I2S had been perfect back to many generations.  Yes, perfect for PCM, but not for DSD.

 

The fact that SU-1 does not have the PCM noise issue with PS Audio DS DAC Junior, which I tested at home, proves SU-1 is fully compliant.

 

W4S seems to have a worldwide dealer network.  They can arrange a free pickup from all their users, fix the problems in each dealer, and send back.  It is the responsibility of a manufacturer.

[MINORISUKE]

At first, absolute polarity is totally different from stereo polarity.  See below, for example.
http://www.audiocheck.net/blindtests_abspolarity.php

The issue with W4S DAC is absolute polarity.

 

As far as I2S/DSD HDMI LVDS is concerned, there are the following four major patterns.  DSDOE (DSD/PCM identifier), Mute, DC output (3.3 or 5V), etc. are sometimes added.
SU-1 can be set in these four patterns by using the dip switch No.6 and replacing the firmware (v200 and v202).  See the SU-1 page on Taobao by Singxer.

 

<1> PS Audio (and PS Audio assignment compliant models such as HiFace EVO TWO)
No.1: DATA-/DSDR-  No.3: DATA+/DSDR+
No.4: BCLK+/DSDCLK+  No.6: BCLK-/DSDCLK-
No.7: LRCK-/DSDL-  No.9: LRCK+/DSDL+

<2> LKS
No.1: DATA+/DSDR+  No.3: DATA-/DSDR-
No.4: BCLK+/DSDCLK+  No.6: BCLK-/DSDCLK-
No.7: LRCK+/DSDL+  No.9: LRCK-/DSDL-

<3> Holo Audio
No.1: DATA-/DSDL-  No.3: DATA+/DSDL+
No.4: BCLK+/DSDCLK+  No.6: BCLK-/DSDCLK-
No.7: LRCK-/DSDR-  No.9: LRCK+/DSDR+

<4> Gustard
No.1: DATA+/DSDL+  No.3: DATA-/DSDL-
No.4: BCLK+/DSDCLK+  No.6: BCLK-/DSDCLK-
No.7: LRCK+/DSDR+  No.9: LRCK-/DSDR-

 

Note that Holo Audio assignment on the Sonore list is incorrect.
Gustard's "early" figure for U12 was <2> and incorrect.  They changed the figure to <4> without notice.  However, there has been no change in hardware.

 

W4S DAC was supposed to follow <1> but belongs to none of these four due to a mistake and insufficient check.

Now you see adding a firmware patch to SU-1 just for the faulty W4S makes the fifth pattern, which might bring the market more into confusion.

That is why I insist W4S should fix this issue by themselves.  There is only one party involved in it.

 

If there is anything incorrect in the description above, please let me know.

[MINORISUKE]

Since W4S replied, I am going to post only the following point at this moment.

 

The patch firmware Leter has made is just to identify the cause.  To make it as an official release under Singxer's quality measure, lots of time is needed.  This can be done only after an official request from W4S with a certain business agreement.
For owners of HiFace EVO TWO, Hydra Z, etc., W4S has to ask all of these manufacturers to make a firmware patch, respectively, if they decide they won't change their firmware.

[MINORISUKE]

Note that absolute polarity can be checked precisely only with measuring equipment, which Leter always does.
Try the absolute polarity blind test I quoted in my previous post.

[MINORISUKE]

As for absolute polarity swap, WS4 has to prove their specifications to be "PS Audio compliant," or they should "amend" their pin assingment to the current real one.
If it turns out not to be the same as that of PS Audio, some manufacturers of a DDC or a transport with HDMI LVDS I2S/DSD output may lose their interest in keeping the compatibility with WS4 DACs, whereas the other may try to make a special version of firmware.  For this purpose, the real pin assignment is needed.  I cannot accept their statement "it is on them to properly work with our gear" without assuring W4S pin assignment being hundred percent compliant to that of PS Audio.  The only reference is PS Audio products and nobody else's.

[MINORISUKE]

3 hours ago, Bimmer100 said:

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this is the exact cap that leter used to fix the Dac. 

I wonder how this statement not given by Leter can be confirmed.

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35 minutes ago, Bimmer100 said:

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I talk with him almost daily since im a singxer dealer..

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Then I do not think I stay involved in this issue.

I thought only personal import of SU-1 directly from China was possible.  At least in EU, this model cannot be sold without CE.

I really appreciate those dealers bearing the cost of acquiring the necessary certificates and keeping the same Chinese price.

[MINORISUKE]

4 hours ago, Wyred 4 Sound said:

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Our version has been the same ever since, and open for any company who wishes to implement their I2S device with ours to ensure things function as intended. All of our products that use I2S our compatible with each other, which was our sole intent with this connection path. 

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I am relieved that I could get rid of a false accusation on Leter's excellent product.

It is very easy for W4S just to disclose this open-for-any-company pin assignment also to end users.

There still remains a mystery of the different behaviour of the new and old units under the same model mentioned above in this thread.

I wonder if there are variations among the "ever since same" version.

[MINORISUKE]

1 hour ago, Wyred 4 Sound said:

Attached please find our I2S pin configuration. Based on PS Audio’s model,

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DSD is not indicated.  I assume it is the same as PS Audio except

No.1 DSDR+   No.3 DSDR-

It seems that "W4S standards" is a swap of No.1 and 3 from PS Audio both for PCM and DSD.  If so, however, absolute polarity swap should happen also in PCM with PS Audio compatible inputs, which nobody has ever reported (or simply noticed yet?).

[MINORISUKE]

The "PCM Phase" result in the above should be different.

W4S's statement that their PCM playback with PS Audio PWT was correct is now also doubtful.  Swapping DATA+ and DATA- results in absolute polarity swap, but they have been saying in these 10 years that there is no swap according to their post.

[MINORISUKE]

There is still no explanation why
     No.1/3 DATA+/DATA- and DATA-/DATA+
sound the same without absolute polarity swap.  If their "revised" I2S pin assignment is correct, PS Audio PWT must have absolute polarity swap.  Probably, they have no equipment to measure and judge just by listening, which is not easy.

They have not disclosed their DSD pin assignment yet.  I2S is a terminology applicable only for PCM.
As I am not an owner of W4S products, they are not obliged to comment about my suspect.  I have been involved, simply because Leter had asked me to have a look.

[MINORISUKE]

I happened to communicate with Leter today as well.  He told me he was going to make a special version of firmware and to let the W4S DAC owner(s) test it.  Now I understand that all that Leter can do is just to "guess" the pin assignment of W4S.

FYI, these are four I2S/DSD patterns from Singxer's Taobao site.  It is hard to understand why W4S is reluctant (or unable) to disclose their pin assignment.  The only possible reason would be that such a disclosure might bring some negative impact on W4S.

[MINORISUKE]

26 minutes ago, vortecjr said:

I made this database of i2s pin assignments back when we use to make the Signature Series Rendu:

http://www.i2s.sonore.us

I wonder how its accuracy was checked.  At least W4S said this was incorrect.

Holo Spring seems to be incorrect, too, compared with Leter's figure.

[MINORISUKE]

9 hours ago, vortecjr said:

I don't know who Leter is, but he seems to be a third party. It's best for each manufacturer to report any inconsistencies. I can tell you though most manufacturers are not willing to discuss the data.   

May I ask just from my curiosity how you have got W4S pin assignment for your list?  W4S has been referring your data as their "official" pin assignment on their home page, which I have never seen by other manufacturers and W4S has deleted as described in this thread.  Normally, the assignment is disclosed by the manufacturer in its official site and manual, then referred by other persons like you.

If there had been no pin assignment of W4S in your list, the issue currently discussed in this thread could not have occurred, for nobody would have tried to connect SU-1 with W4S DAC with an "unknown" pin assignment.

[MINORISUKE]

On 05/21/2017 at 10:49 PM, vortecjr said:

I don't remember. There is bunch of data on that sheet going back many years. What is normal is relative. Maybe they found it helpful to refer to it.  

 

Come on...if there were no pin assignment on W4S you would still have tried it. The SU-1 is not noted as the PS Audio spec so you might expect some issues.

 

Why is the SU-1 sending 5V via pin 18?      

Thank you for your comment.  My curiosity has been fulfilled.

Now I understand the data management policy of your company and how your I2S list was created.

Ask Leter about 5V.  His address is on Singxer site.  I know the reason but should not tell, as I do not represent Singxer.

[MINORISUKE]

3 hours ago, vortecjr said:

Well...I would not recommend sending 5V out on pin 18. 

Can you disclose the reason?

How about this "correct" pin assignment given by W4S?

I see 5V on No.18.

[MINORISUKE]

3 hours ago, vortecjr said:

That looks okay. However, it's misleading because it doesn't say if it's for the a source or a DAC? This is why it's best not to include the 5V. I added it along with a note on my database.    

This was issued by W4S as their DAC pin assignment, as you can see in their post here.  Those who are watching this thread are all unsatisfied W4S DAC owners except you, me and W4S.  It is recommended to read all the previous posts here before you write anything to respect other readers.

You had better let W4S instead of Singxer contact you, at least to inform W4S of their misleading information.

[MINORISUKE]

On 2017/5/20 at 10:09 PM, vortecjr said:

I made this database of i2s pin assignments back when we use to make the Signature Series Rendu:

http://www.i2s.sonore.us

The description of SU-1 is incorrect.  SU-1 is configurable in four patterns with dip switches and firmware version.

See my post above with four figures.

You should not put misleading information without an approval of Singxer.

[MINORISUKE]

10 hours ago, vortecjr said:

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On the tab named index there is a self explanatory warning stating, "Note: pin assignments are unconfirmed and for DIY use only" I keep the database as a curiosity only.

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Thank you for your explanation, although I have been aware of your warning statement.

 

Now I understand the issue of W4S DAC and SU-1 comes from the fact that the users simply have ignored this warning and believed the accuracy of the list, although it was for the publisher's curiosity only.

Neither W4S nor Sonore forced you to believe it.  Reviewing their posts in this thread gave me an impression that they would take no responsibility.

Apparently, Singxer has nothing to do with it, either.  It was your own decision to trust the Sonore list and to purchase SU-1.

(1) You bought the W4S DAC.

(2) You found on W4S official site that the I2S pin assignment was described in the Sonore list.

(3) You found "PS Audio" in the field of W4S DAC and thought it was PS Audio compliant.

(4) You checked the product information of SU-1, found it was PS Audio compliant, and ordered one.

(5) You found the issue.

(6) W4S disclosed its pin assignment, which was different from that of PS Audio, and deleted the link to the Sonore list.

(7) The Sonore list has been modified.  The description about PS Audio compliance was removed, and you see the above-mentioned evidence any more.

 

[MINORISUKE]

6 hours ago, vortecjr said:

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In 1-5 you keep saying "You" and since you are replying to me I assume you mean me.

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No, "You" in my post from (1) to (7) meant the owner of W4S DAC + SU-1, not you.

[MINORISUKE]

42 minutes ago, vortecjr said:

W4S has confirmed to me that the pin assignment on the database is correct. 

Everybody can post the same sentence.  It has no meaning unless stated by W4S officially.

As you said, your curiosity list is "live" and may be modified at any moment.  A link to any variable information makes only confusion again.