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bigbob

Class D amplifiers, can a chip sound as good as a regular amplifier?

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13 minutes ago, GUTB said:

 

How would you compare the high end products you’ve listened to with the lower-end / affordable gear?

That is not what I meant.  A $5K system properly set up can sound better than a $100K+ system that is just put into a room.  I do not dismiss a product based on $$ alone, by the same token I don’t endorse or desire a product just because it cost $$$$$.  I know you are going to be reviewing a Crown digital amp, I have never heard one nor do I particularly want to.  I am interested in perhaps building one using some of the state of the art components that are available now.  Perhaps like you I am just curious!


Alan B

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7 minutes ago, GUTB said:

 

How would you compare the high end products you’ve listened to with the lower-end / affordable gear?

 

Sound quality can ONLY be judged by what we can actually hear.

 

In my case, the Denon AVR-2805 sounded better than either the Yamaha RX-135 receiver or the harman/kardon 330i.

It sold new for $1200 but was a gift to me, so I have zero financial stakes in my opinion.

Yes, Caroline, it sounded better.

Do I need 16 onboard  24/192 DACs to handle by 2 channel Stereo playback? Of course not, nor will I ever feel compelled to set-up the 7.1 Home theater it was designed to power.

But, the AL-24 DSP, which re-creates a 24-bit waveform, even if the source is a lowly MP3 file and 192kBps makes everything sound 'as good' as my 24-bit library.

 

A Denon can be found used on eBay for pennies $39-99 USD. So, in that regard, I have made an improvement in SQ without busting the bank.

 

Now, when it comes to the Nordost Valhalla Reference speaker ribbons and the XOT cross-over transducers-- the $8200 made a real noticeable improvement.

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10 minutes ago, bigbob said:

 

An Audiophile will argue the Minutiae Ad nauseam

 

Yes, while I have been an avid reader here for many years I do not regularly post here.  I believe that you and I are of similar vintage :).  That being said, I would like to also (in addition to building a digital amp) pick up a good used vintage amp and restore it (recap, etc.)  what recommendations do you have?  In my research on eBay last night I see there are some insane (to me anyway) prices being asked.  Perhaps another venue?


Alan B

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22 hours ago, bigbob said:

"It seems that Class-D amplifiers have caught on with the PA systems, where 90% efficiency and lightweight are a consideration. Yamaha is building them, which makes me wonder what the Grateful Dead's "Wall of Sound" would have been like with Class D amplifiers. They could have cut the number of semi-tractor-trailers from three to one during the 1974 tour. "  From the OP, in April, of 2017.

 

http://fatjimmyamps.com/bob-weir-custom/dead-company/

 

https://www.thetonegeek.com/single-post/2017/06/22/John-Mayers-2015-Dead-Company-Rig-Done

 

Edited by bigbob
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9 minutes ago, Alan B said:

 

Yes, while I have been an avid reader here for many years I do not regularly post here.  I believe that you and I are of similar vintage :).  That being said, I would like to also (in addition to building a digital amp) pick up a good used vintage amp and restore it (recap, etc.)  what recommendations do you have?  In my research on eBay last night I see there are some insane (to me anyway) prices being asked.  Perhaps another venue?

 

I am well pleased with the Denon AVR-2805 which are listed from $33-up. The killer part is the shipping, this thing is a 30 lb. beast.

https://www.ebay.com/i/182805040900?chn=ps

 

My general guideline, unless you are really good with a soldering iron and reading schematics is to have a really good electronics technician who specializes in Vintage electronics. I am fortunate to have Sasa right here in my neighborhood. He did a clean-up, tune-up on my Yamaha for $25. And it never sounded better.

 

My second recommendation goes for the "good" brands of our youth--NAD 3020*, Pioneer, and of course anything by Yamaha, with the "pure direct" switch, which bypasses all tone controls, feeding your signal directly to the amp stage.

 

*-"The NAD 3020 is an iconic stereo integrated amplifier by NAD Electronics, considered to be one of the most important components in the history of high fidelity audio. Launched circa 1978, this highly affordable product delivered a good quality sound, which acquired a reputation as an audiophile amplifier of exceptional value. By 1998, the NAD 3020 had become the most well known and best-selling audio amplifier in history."--wikipedia

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34 minutes ago, Alan B said:

That is not what I meant.  A $5K system properly set up can sound better than a $100K+ system that is just put into a room.  I do not dismiss a product based on $$ alone, by the same token I don’t endorse or desire a product just because it cost $$$$$.  I know you are going to be reviewing a Crown digital amp, I have never heard one nor do I particularly want to.  I am interested in perhaps building one using some of the state of the art components that are available now.  Perhaps like you I am just curious!

 

So your earlier comments re expensive cases was just socializing with the non-audiophiles and shouldn’t be taken seriously. 

 

The importance of the room is usually overstated. As long as destructive room modes are avoided and speaker-listener geometry is correct you’ve addressed most of the room issues. Most budget audiophiles are likely listening in a near field arrangement in which the room mostly doesn’t matter.

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23 minutes ago, GUTB said:

 

 

 

The importance of the room is usually overstated. As long as destructive room modes are avoided and speaker-listener geometry is correct you’ve addressed most of the room issues. Most budget audiophiles are likely listening in a near field arrangement in which the room mostly doesn’t matter.

 

 

 

"Most budget audiophiles" like myself live in accommodations which do not afford a separate  "listening room" with pillows in the corners of the ceiling, and "room tuning" accouterment.

In my main listening room, I have a number of rubber tubs which are for storage, and some upholstered furniture, including a big chair and ottoman.

 

For this old House, my room tuning involved moving the ottoman in-between the Large Advents, as it acted as a sound-absorber located in front of the speakers.

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27 minutes ago, GUTB said:

 

So your earlier comments re expensive cases was just socializing with the non-audiophiles and shouldn’t be taken seriously. 

 

The importance of the room is usually overstated. As long as destructive room modes are avoided and speaker-listener geometry is correct you’ve addressed most of the room issues. Most budget audiophiles are likely listening in a near field arrangement in which the room mostly doesn’t matter.

  So just because someone has a less expensive system than you may have they are in your words a "non-audiophile"?

 

So at what magical dollar point do you consider someone to qualify as an "audiophile"?

 

Never mind, I am done with the likes of you and your types (snobbery, snobbery, snobbery)! People like you will NEVER get the younger set to enjoy listening to quality music.


Alan B

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5 minutes ago, bigbob said:

 

 

"Most budget audiophiles" like myself live in accommodations which do not afford a separate  "listening room" with pillows in the corners of the ceiling, and "room tuning" accouterment.

In my main listening room, I have a number of rubber tubs which are for storage, and some upholstered furniture, including a big chair and ottoman.

 

For this old House, my room tuning involved moving the ottoman in-between the Large Advents, as it acted as a sound-absorber located in front of the speakers.

 ....and I have every reason to believe it sounds great too!


Alan B

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39 minutes ago, Alan B said:

  So just because someone has a less expensive system than you may have they are in your words a "non-audiophile"?

 

So at what magical dollar point do you consider someone to qualify as an "audiophile"?

 

Never mind, I am done with the likes of you and your types (snobbery, snobbery, snobbery)! People like you will NEVER get the younger set to enjoy listening to quality music.

 

I appreciate the class warfare aspect, but it's not related to the original point which was the suggestion that there's no difference between budget and high-end audio except for an expensive case. You seem to have retreated from that position. I'm not here to embarrass anyone so I'll drop it.

 

On the class warfare front, there's really not any warfare. It's true that you have to spend SOME money to get high end sound, but you can get very, very good results for less than $10k. Just $5k might be too limited unless you got some great value used equipment.

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3 hours ago, Alan B said:

  So just because someone has a less expensive system than you may have they are in your words a "non-audiophile"?

So at what magical dollar point do you consider someone to qualify as an "audiophile"?

Never mind, I am done with the likes of you and your types (snobbery, snobbery, snobbery)! People like you will NEVER get the younger set to enjoy listening to quality music.

 

 

 

An Audiophile is defined not by how much money they invest in their system, rather who can get the best Music out of the system they have. At "Computer Audiophile on the Cheap", we build systems that produce  Audiophile- quality at a price that works within your budget.

 

Not many amongst us can afford a $300,000 set of speakers--even if they dripped molten gold, and sounded like Buttah!

 

But, the current technology costs less than in the past. You have to ask yourself, "If this $199 DAC sounds as good as I have ever heard this song, why do I need to spend 10x that amount."

 

And a vintage NAD 3020, refurbished, tuned up and ready to go for $269 sure looks like a better deal than some exotic pre-amp/power amp configuration that requires a personal Power station to operate.

 

Every forum has a contrarian--one who just loves to stir it up, but never really contributes much to the edification of the other readers.

 

Me thinks these same folks have long-barrels on their pistols, and huge wheels on their pick-up trucks, but sadly, over-compensation doesn't make the Music sound any better.

Edited by bigbob
grevious errors in syntax and grammar

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An Audiophile is defined by how much sacrifice is put into their SQ obsession - that can be money, time, effort, blood, sweat or tears...

 

They have a "restless, hungry feeling that don't mean no Class D no good, and everything they're a doin', you could do it just as good"


"The overwhelming majority [of audiophiles] have very little knowledge, if any, about the most basic principles and operating characteristics of audio equipment. They often base their purchasing decisions on hearsay, and the preaching of media sages. Unfortunately, because of commercial considerations, much information is rooted in increasing revenue, not in assisting the audiophile. It seems as if the only requirements for becoming an "authority" in the world of audio is a keyboard."

-- Bruce Rozenblit of Transcendent Sound

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7 hours ago, Alan B said:

So just because someone has a less expensive system than you may have they are in your words a "non-audiophile"?

 

So at what magical dollar point do you consider someone to qualify as an "audiophile"?

 

As it can be seen from my other thread, my friend had accessed and measured hundreds if not thousands of high end equipment. One of them including Ongaku amplifier. He knows what parts were used and the exact price for  them.

 

In one instance, he came across a tube amplifier with minimalist approach which sounded very good. The retail price was around $2500 to $3000. He decided to make one exactly like that. He used exactly the same parts and when necessary better components. Total cost was about $500 to $600. That's including a solid all metal chassis. 

 

Price sometimes indicate the quality of components (and artwork) used and not necessarily the sound quality. Have we forgotten the case of a outside high end inside al cheapo? Obviously, those who paid $3000 would argue that it sounds superior and I would happily settle with the $500 one.

 

 

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but he copied an existing circuit design, rather than paying engineers 

 

 

or was it a 50 yr old design?


"The overwhelming majority [of audiophiles] have very little knowledge, if any, about the most basic principles and operating characteristics of audio equipment. They often base their purchasing decisions on hearsay, and the preaching of media sages. Unfortunately, because of commercial considerations, much information is rooted in increasing revenue, not in assisting the audiophile. It seems as if the only requirements for becoming an "authority" in the world of audio is a keyboard."

-- Bruce Rozenblit of Transcendent Sound

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2 hours ago, STC said:

Which part of tube amplifier is still a secret? It was a then current model. The point is price is not indicative of SQ. High end priced higher because it makes a style statement.

 

That’s obviously not correct. Otherwise Audio Note transformers (that cost upwards of $7k) wouldn’t be back ordered. People wouldn’t buy $700 Jupiter caps, $40 Duelund resistors, etc and so on.

 

Now, if Dan D’Agostino wants to sell me his $40k amp, it better look great. That has nothing to do with the sound, though, and I wonder why some people deny that truism so hard...

 

 

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6 minutes ago, GUTB said:

 

That’s obviously not correct. Otherwise Audio Note transformers (that cost upwards of $7k) wouldn’t be back ordered. People wouldn’t buy $700 Jupiter caps, $40 Duelund resistors, etc and so on.

 

Now, if Dan D’Agostino wants to sell me his $40k amp, it better look great. That has nothing to do with the sound, though, and I wonder why some people deny that truism so hard...

 

 

 

If I got an extra $40K to burn and provided D'Agostino is capable of driving my speakers then I wouldn't hesitate to buy one but I will never ever say that truly high end sound is due to the $40K amplifier as my demo speaks for itself with the Crown.It is all in the setup and not in the price.

 

Long time ago my friend wanted to be a distributor for a highly recommended amplifier by the holy books of audiophile. The retail price was more than $10000. Do you want to guess the actual price offered to the distributors?

 

Another acquaintance of mine, is the actual manufacturer for a high end speakers which is extremely expensive. That product is sold over 1000% of his price inclusive of profit and cost.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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14 minutes ago, STC said:

 

If I got an extra $40K to burn and provided D'Agostino is capable of driving my speakers then I wouldn't hesitate to buy one but I will never ever say that truly high end sound is due to the $40K amplifier as my demo speaks for itself with the Crown.It is all in the setup and not in the price.

 

Long time ago my friend wanted to be a distributor for a highly recommended amplifier by the holy books of audiophile. The retail price was more than $10000. Do you want to guess the actual price offered to the distributors?

 

Another acquaintance of mine, is the actual manufacturer for a high end speakers which is extremely expensive. That product is sold over 1000% of his price inclusive of profit and cost.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Can you tell us about this rip-off artist you know so we can avoid his scam?

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40 minutes ago, GUTB said:

 

Can you tell us about this rip-off artist you know so we can avoid his scam?

 

This is business and nothing is wrong with that.  You are obviously missing the point. The point is just because some extra work done to justify the price, it doesn't translate to better sound quality. Show me one manufacturer who claims their product gives details that no other system could?

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On 4/12/2017 at 7:59 PM, Silly goose said:

Just sharing my opinion. Yes I understand sweatshop labor can reduce costs, and I understand most people don't care. For people who don't care, they will care even less about my opinion as well. 

 

China is making the transition from agricultural to industrial/technical the same way the US and every other country did it.  When you buy that $40 amp you're doing more to improve real peoples' lives than virtually any "charity."  America's great strength is that we're the country that invents the future, not the place with the lowest manufacturing costs.

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On 4/14/2017 at 3:32 PM, Supperconductor said:

I used to hate Class D amps - never liked the sound. Then I heard some at a hifi show and was really shocked that I liked the sound. The design and implementation have evolved quite a bit. So I purchased them on the spot (with a full 30 day home trial). I think they're great and not just for the price. I still have my tube and solid state Class A amps. I still listen to those when the mood strikes (and it's really cold outside).

Curious-what amp did you buy?


 

 

 

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On 4/16/2018 at 9:28 AM, Emerald Core said:

Some people pay $1 for a drink, some pay $10,000. 

 

Only way I’d EVER pay $10,000 for a drink is if it was from the holy cup of grail, filled with water from the fountain of youth!  x-D

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On 3/23/2018 at 10:04 PM, Nordkapp said:

Curious-what amp did you buy?

Emerald Physics EP100.2 - bought two to run as monoblocks. Wonderful amps IMO. Not perfect as there is no such thing. I still rotate in my Quicksilver V4's and some other solid-state Class A & AB stuff as the mood strikes. But the EP's are in use 90% of the time.

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