Light Harmonic (LH Labs). Scam? USD$6 million not delivered since 2014

[Jud]

4 hours ago, eganz said:

 Have you asked for a refund? 

 

I have (though I've contributed nowhere near the amount Bernard unfortunately has).  Twice.  No go.  Legally they can keep it.  That's the rub of Kickstarter, Indiegogo, etc.

[Jud]

A lawsuit would be extremely difficult. Since we knew in advance no product was promised, what you would have to show would be either (1) the company's principals intended to and did use the money for other things, or (2) even though there was no firm time frame for delivery, the company's principals intended to, and did, delay delivery for so long that the item is now essentially worthless (not worthless to you specifically, but worthless in market terms).

 

Either of these would have to be proved by "clear and convincing" evidence, a heavy burden to carry.

 

My thought is that legal proceedings would be throwing good time and money after bad.

[Jud]

The proposed title is priceless.

 

This isn't in any way to minimize the fact that many people, including myself, who put up hundreds or even thousands of dollars years ago are justifiably feeling quite ripped off by LH. 

[Jud]

2 hours ago, Ralf11 said:

a lawsuit could be filed in any number of countries, all of which have different standards to win; much less to settle on favorable terms

 

Perhaps you could have a look for a country (1) with a more favorable burden of proof (2) entitled to exercise jurisdiction over LH labs (3) with liberal class action rules allowing people from many nations to join the class (4) where you don't have to pay a lawyer the case expenses for administering a large class action (5) where you can find someone willing to travel to California to serve LH Labs and not charge you a lot for the trip (or you could have the documents mailed and hope LH is stupid enough to agree to be sued in a foreign jurisdiction).

 

I'll wait.

[Jud]

The original Geek Out (which has performed beautifully for me for many years) was crowdfunded.

 

It showed me and others that LHL was capable of producing a good, inexpensive product through crowdfunding in a timely way.  So we went for the next crowdfunding offer.  Then of course they blew that all to hell with their subsequent non- (or terribly late and/or defective) products.

[Jud]

29 minutes ago, plissken said:

This is an outfit that has a track record of not delivering. 

 

What are people actually expecting?

 

Not a lot.

[Jud]

33 minutes ago, mansr said:

I think you're showing some expectation bias there.

 

Yes - of course in this case it's based on actual experience.

[Jud]

14 hours ago, Superdad said:

Does anyone really think they will receive a GeekWave with functional software in this decade?

 

Does anyone still care?  With regard to DAPs, I have a Pono I like (though I don't use it nearly as much since there's now no lawn to mow for a couple of hours a week wearing IEMs, and no two hours of commuting back and forth to work).  I care a bit, but self-examination says the only reason is in order to have the completely ridiculous and unmerited feeling that if I actually do receive a physical product many years late when I no longer need or want it, I can say I wasn't completely swindled.

[Jud]

3 hours ago, LHCommSquad said:

 

1. Noted and good to know. I am sure you know how it feels when 100% false things are aimed at a company. 

 

In this case the 100% true things are plenty bad enough.

 

How're those Geek Waves coming along? Do you know anyone I can sell mine to, or better still, would you like to give me and anyone else who requests it our money back because I have no use or desire for the thing any more?

 

I'll acquaint you with what honorable people do. I participated in crowdfunding a security camera called Lighthouse, with AI facial recognition features. The product was delivered on time and worked extremely well. I was very happy with it. However the company was not able to make itself a going concern. Because part of the price I paid (though not the majority) was for lifetime updates, after I and others had already used the product happily for more than a year, the company offered all of us a refund of the full purchase price, not just the lifetime update portion.

 

That is what honorable people do.

[Jud]

2 hours ago, LHCommSquad said:

 

1. I agree with you. If the 100% true things are plenty bad enough (which they are), let's not have the waters muddied any further with false claims.

 

This would read much better if you had not "muddied the waters" with rumors about presumed motivations of another manufacturer's principal (and one of your customers) in presenting his criticisms.

 

2 hours ago, LHCommSquad said:

3. There's not enough money in the till to offer refunds to people.

 

This certainly piques my curiosity as to what the money could possibly have been spent on, lacking even AFAICT a fully working prototype with final software.  Obviously not parts and inventory.

 

2 hours ago, LHCommSquad said:

  That's why LH is funding LHL and projects are not being completed on time. Not everyone would get a full refund, it wouldn't be a fair process, people wouldn't understand or they'd complain about it, etc.

 

May I suggest that LHL inquire as to who would accept partial refunds in lieu of a product I, and I would guess many others, no longer desire or need?  As for complaints, I think you have a few of those now 😐, and I doubt delivery of a product many people may no longer want (if it should ever occur) would do much to change that.

 

2 hours ago, LHCommSquad said:

Anyway, I'm not the guy you should be talking to about a refund. I have no control over how that's handled. I just report information as I receive it.

 

Right - I hope you will report the information to LHL that it has been suggested they ask backers if partial refunds would be acceptable.

 

2 hours ago, LHCommSquad said:

Once the Wave comes out (if it does)

 

Indeed.

[Jud]

28 minutes ago, LHCommSquad said:

There is a meaningful commitment to fulfill orders

 

Jarek, after 4+ years (for the Wave), one really cannot talk sensibly of a meaningful commitment to fulfill orders.  As I've noted previously, I certainly no longer have a use for the product, so fulfilling my order would be an empty and meaningless gesture.  I imagine many others feel the same way, and as before, I would urge LHL to inquire whether backers would accept partial refunds, which I think would be far more useful to most.

 

My order was made at a time when DAPs as a category were a meaningful product.  Now I can stream literally millions of tracks at home in high resolution, or from my phone in the car at RedBook quality (when I'm not listening to my choice of a couple of hundred channels of satellite radio).  What do I want with a separate piece of hardware with 128GB of storage that I have to spend time copying files to?  I have better quality at home; in the car hi res is mostly wasted, and if I would ever want that I have a Pono Player that was delivered pretty close to on time several years ago and still works well.

 

So when years have intervened, people have moved on, and the entire product category is no longer viable, no, one can't speak of meaningful fulfillment of a commitment.

[Jud]

3 hours ago, tmtomh said:

This makes it sound like you have tried every reasonable manner of handling updates, which you most certainly have not. It is a norm in backer-based campaigns, across all the platforms, for backers to get regular, direct emailed, periodic updates on the campaign. I never backed an LHL IGG campaign (thankfully), but I've done others and of course some of the updates are dressed-up nothing-burgers. I've also backed one campaign that is 2-3 years behind the original delivery date.

 

But the company provides updates directly to the backers - they don't require backers to search out threads on specialist web forums, and then scold backers with "I've said this over and over" - that's just appalling customer service behavior.

 

What a good post!

 

About this bit specifically - LHL said much the same to the Better Business Bureau in response to complaints (in that case, that the company listed fictitious "awards" it had won, and instead of providing links in response to the BBB's inquiries, LHL said to go Google!).  The BBB was unable to find any such awards after searching.  Thus it would not shock me if the information LHL supposedly provided "over and over" to its forlorn backers in fact never appeared in any forum.  However, if the information was in fact provided, I'm sure @LHCommSquad will give us the links as a good customer service rep ought to, isn't that right?

 

Now I'm just guessing here, but I'm supposing any monies from the campaigns (anyone ever total the amount raised for all the campaigns where nothing has been provided or even at the stage of a working prototype? - thinking it must be in the millions) are with LH and/or spent on things having nothing to do with the products we were enticed to pay for, and that's why I feel it's unlikely we'll see even a partial refund.

[Jud]

21 minutes ago, tmtomh said:

 

Can you verify that none of the money that's paying for your salary/consultancy has come from the pockets of the IGG backers?

 

Words aren't meaningful.  What would be meaningful is an agreement to allow an independently funded audit.  I'll leave you to guess the chances of that ever happening - why make it easier for people to sue you?

[Jud]

1 minute ago, LHCommSquad said:

1. @tmtomh implies/tells me I shouldn't work for LH/L because I can't verify which division pays me. 

2. @EdmontonCanuck thanks me for working for LH/L and getting him his package

3. @Jud seems to agree with @tmtomh but then asks/tells me to work MORE (finding posts, etc.) which would add to billable hours for me/LH/L (?)

 

Ya'll gotta make up your minds here. 

 

This ain't that hard. Other companies actually ship product. We're just wanting a little real information. (Not actually thinking we're going to get it, since you want to keep playing games. Kind of blew that whole "I'm here to help" thing pretty quick, didn't you?)

 

OK, putting you on my ignore list. Someone else will let me know in the surprising event you have something truthful and informative to say.

[Jud]

8 minutes ago, tmtomh said:

start acting like the customer service expert you claim to be.

 

Bold prediction: not happening.

[Jud]

2 minutes ago, tmtomh said:

 

The finances aren't there to do anything on a massive scale - and yet you claim that only 30 backers are really upset at this point. Why not offer them at least a token recompense, instead of vilifying them as a way of trying to minimize the awfulness of what LH has done?

 

These people who paid hundreds or thousands of dollars, and actually expected a product in return - some folks are so hard to please!

[Jud]

43 minutes ago, Shadders said:

For me - there are many existing products out there that were never crowd funded, so why spend money on something that does not exist, and you do not know how it will perform ?

 

Because LHL might be among the worst of the results ever experienced by backers.

 

I have done 3 other such projects with other companies that honor their promises, and I have always received a product that worked well at a substantial discount from the retail price either on time or within a couple of months of the due date.

 

In fact earlier in the thread I gave an example of a company that delivered a product which worked beautifully, and after buyers already had a year's use of the product, when the company could no longer keep operating profitably, they took it back (a security camera with AI features) and provided full refunds.

 

I don't know if there are any other companies that have behaved as dishonorably as LHL, but they must be very few.  LHL is spoken of as a cautionary tale and notable bad example by audiophiles and other audio manufacturers (they served as the chief example of what not to do in a book about startups written by one of the Schiit Audio principals, for instance).

[Jud]

2 hours ago, Shadders said:

Hi,

I looked at the Indiegogo website, and can it be assumed that people funded this through the perk system, where they were expecting the product at a discount once designed ???

 

Question i have is, how many people who paid for this perk have not received ?.

 

Are LH Labs required to state how many people have paid and received their unit ?

 

Without this open information, it is impossible to see where the $3million went. I notice that the other funded projects are much less than $3million, about 1/10th of the $3million.

 

They already have a prototype for the unit - pictures - so, surely this is a production issue ?.

 

Since there is $3million and an existing prototype, it was a case of refining and production ?

 

What was the initial target for crowd funding ?. Given that the others are 1/10th of the $3million.

 

If people have already received the product and are happy - why can the remaining orders not be fulfilled with $3million capital to ensure bulk purchase of components reduces all costs significantly ??.

 

Regards,

Shadders.

 

I'm not sure what you were looking at on IGG, but the figure I saw on the site for funds raised for the LHL Geek Wave project alone was over $1.6 million.  Not a single person has received a final production model. As far as I know, there is not even a fully working prototype.  So very obviously, as I mentioned before, this $1.6 million for this particular project cannot be tied up in parts and inventory.

 

Since LHL appears to be claiming there is no money left, the unavoidable conclusion seems to be that most of the $1.6 million was either wasted or siphoned off for other purposes.

[Jud]

3 minutes ago, Shadders said:

Hi Jud,

I was looking at the Pulse DAC.

 

When  you visit the Indiegogo website it is the first one that appears for LH Labs. On the LH Labs website, it did not appear in the Products pull down - but only from a Google search.

 

So, does this mean that the Pulse DAC $3million and the Geek Wave $1.6million need to be added together ?

 

Or was the Pulse DAC always available ?

 

Regards,

Shadders.

 

For LHL projects other than the Wave, of which there are a few, I think the Geek Out v2 may have been the only one where most or all customers received a product.  But I have not followed these, just read the complaints, so the best information would come from backers of these other projects.

 

Yes you would add the pledges for the various projects to get the total.  @Superdad mentioned that when he added it all up a couple of years ago, it was around $5 million at that time.

[Jud]

22 minutes ago, Solstice380 said:

Is it time for the affected people to start a class action lawsuit?  I’m sure one of those ambulance-chaser lawyers that advertise on TV will take on the case (for 50% of the awarded damages!).

 

I would think that would be throwing good money after bad.  Expenses would come from the clients' pockets, and I would not be surprised if any money sent to LHL was now unreachable.

[Jud]

8 hours ago, Currawong said:

 

I pulled it from a public update, here: https://support.lhlabs.com/support/solutions/articles/13000037905-wave-update-chart-9-17-2017

 

I totally believe Larry is determined to pull through all this, but it would be nice if he posted where the $1.1M (or whatever it was, as the page has vanished from Indiegogo) for the Wave went. 

 

Edit: Found some old pictures:

 

 

 

The amount pledged for the Wave project at IGG was $1.6 million.

[Jud]

9 hours ago, Currawong said:

 

The original Geek Out shipped. I bought one. The V2 completely shipped AFAIK. They claim the Pulse and variations shipped fully, but there are still a few people complaining about broken units. 

 

The last total shipped units information posted that I'm aware of (unless one was posted last year) was this one:

 

 

I'm with you on a public audit. Gavin Fish said to me in person, a few years ago, that he "did $12M this year" (or words to that effect). Take from that what you will. 

 

The problem is, of course, that the company is completed FiretrUCKED. Larry seems to be trying to innovate his way out of this disaster, by making and selling new products.  I'm surprised he isn't actually focussed on the Geek Out and GOV2, as both are good products that are right where they are needed in the headphone market at the moment. However if your company name is poison, I guess that kills things. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

 

Yes, I have a Geek Out also.  I was referring to crowdfunded projects, though I don't know if GO v2 was one of those.

[Jud]

3 hours ago, bernardperu said:

By any objective standards, Head-Fi has done a fine job of protecting consumer interests.

 

I'll feel more protected when I get my stuff or my money.

 

Edit - sorry Bernard, the quote mechanism made it look like you said this, when actually it was from @LHCommSquad as quoted in your comment.

[Jud]

3 hours ago, NOMBEDES said:

Hey, I sent $100. to Neil Young for his gizmo Prono (sp?)  crowd funding!   But I got a T-Shirt and a signed Carnegie Hall concert poster.

In retrospect, I think I got a good deal.

 

 (I know I got a good deal when compared the scam described above)

 

 

I got an actual Pono.  Works great.  Even better deal.  So even with all the changes Pono went through, they still managed to ship a fine product timely.

 

Amazing how so many companies manage to do that.

[Jud]

5 hours ago, Currawong said:

 

How about the profits from those sales too? How much of the $680k is left? Is there any way of knowing, or was it all pooled together and now LHLabs/Light Harmonic has almost nothing? If so, where did it all go?

 

I'm going to speculate again: If my suggestion about buying commercially available DAPs and sending them to customers instead is unviable, it suggests the LHLabs has blown all their funds and is running on fumes, only keeping up the pretence of actually completing the project to avoid being sued into non-existence. 

 

 

Bringing up a guy famous for taking a lot of money from people, then giving them nothing for years (and sometimes nothing at all) is really putting your foot in your mouth, isn't it?

 

LHL took considerable pains in prior updates sent to funders to say their contributions weren't being used for anything but the Wave, and nothing was communicated by LHL or IGG that the amount shown on the Wave page was a total across all IGG projects by LHL.

 

I also quite cynically wonder whether the communications to funders of other projects are similar, and that everyone's being told some version of "the money you thought was pledged to this project went elsewhere," thus making millions magically disappear.

 

It's these sorts of things that make me wish for an agreed independent accounting. But if that ever comes, I'd be one of the more amazed people on the planet.

 

BTW, backers of the Wave just received Update #179(!). Among other things, it said of a recent redesign involving the CPU, "Now that it's done, the process should go much more smoothly than before." This sounds rather familiar; I haven't looked, but I wonder whether we've been told at one or more points in the previous 178 updates that things would now proceed more smoothly.