Light Harmonic (LH Labs). Scam? USD$6 million not delivered since 2014

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1 hour ago, bernardperu said:

 

 Why would a highly qualified individual with spectacular work ethics choose Larry Ho as his 60+ hours week month boss?

 

 

 

 

Fixed/clarified. (again)

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1 hour ago, Geoff1954 said:

 Is there any evidence of that? Are you saying the product exists and is being retailed?

 

 

No, there isn't. The LH Labs IGG versions are not being sold in stores. The retailers don't want that version and are actually upset about the IGG version. IGG products are generally looked down upon by high end retailers. If anyone finds any in stores, they are Light Harmonic versions which have different components. LH Labs/LH has been over this many times, due to the confusion and misinformation out there.

 

If anyone finds a Source for sale in Asia, please let us and the community know by taking a) a clear picture b) price of unit and c) location [store] of the unit. Please verify from the retail shop owner if it's a Light Harmonic version or an IGG version. If you can get a peek at the internals, please also let us know with a picture. Please also verify the date and time you found the unit.

 

If anyone has a theory or reasoning as to why the retailers would accept an IGG product that sold to IGG customers for less than THEY can sell to THEIR customers, and why THEIR customers would accept that type of situation as well, please post your reasoning. In fact, if you can get an interview with the shop owner over that, please let us (and the community) know as well. LH would be very interested in hearing that.

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17 minutes ago, Lobbster said:

Well thanks for the informational update. I guess this means we'll be getting our Sources & Waves soon, or perhaps they're already in the mail?

 

No, not according to my information. They're working on the Signature IGG editions right now, but that's a very slow process. Everything at LH is very slow (you all know that). They're waiting for 2 units from Singapore to hit the US office but the mail is slow. There's about 5 they're actively working on right now to ship out from the first 10 Signature IGG editions. 

 

EDIT: there are no Light Harmonic editions in Asia for sale at this time. They're sold out.

 

EDIT 2: If you DID find the IGG version in retail, that was because the dealer purchased it through IGG. There was a dealer option years back for IGG orders. But that's quite a different matter. Once they get it, they can obviously sell it, but it wasn't due to what LH is being accused of.

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10 minutes ago, Superdad said:

 

So you are Jarek, self-described as “LH Labs Social Media Guy” right?  Are you any relation/same person as “stucklimo” who others here reference?

 

In any case, how about coming clean about your (semi)professional association with LH Labs?  Are you paid by them? Are you in direct contact with Larry Ho?

 

Anyway, I thought think that if you are to be permitted to post on this forum you ought to be required to be more transparent about who you are and your relationship to the firm.  Otherwise you are just jerking people’s chains.

 

—Alex C.

 

I've always been very open about who I am. People know how to get in touch with me and hold multiple conversations with me by phone, text, email, etc. In fact, we even introduced me in an IGG Wave update (probably some others too):

 

"Hi everyone,

I'm Jarek and I'm the newest member of the Customer Service / Communication team. I have 10 years of Customer Service oriented background, and I'm eager to help out here.

I'm an LH Labs fan and I've got several of their Geek Out products. Larry asked for someone who was well versed in communication and so I volunteered my time and he excitedly accepted. I do live in the midwest and so I'll be helping out remotely in CST. I'm here to help you guys and grease the flow of communication." 

 

Yes, I do get paid. Yes, I am in direct contact with Larry. Yes, I'm in direct contact with backers. Yes, I'm "stuck limo" (or however it's spelled) and that is my non-LH account, for posting and reading the forums as an audio industry fan, partaker, and general all around audiophile. 

Quote

 

(A member of the trade who once considered using crowdfunding for a product until LH ruined it for all audio manufacturers.)

 

Radsone Ear Studio seems to be doing quite well on crowdfunding, as do others. 

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4 minutes ago, MikeyFresh said:

No one owes you or LH any proof of anything, this isn't about trying to prove one thing or another, you aren't owed that respect. Try proving you've delivered any product in 4 years. Go ahead, lets see the proof, give me pictures, dates and times of shipment, satisfied testimonials for the IGG backers who have supposedly received these shipments. They don't exist. Again, no one owes you or LH any proof of anything, but LH will need to provide proof they haven't committed a massive fraud via IGG.

 

It seems we're in a stalemate then. There are no proofs of IGG Sources being sold, and there are no proofs of IGG Sources being delivered yet. Seems like both sides have claims that haven't been proven false or honest yet. 

 

When/if I get the proofs of the deliveries, I'll be happy to share them though. 

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15 minutes ago, Lobbster said:

 

 

BTW your post changed several times. I mean changed from denial to - oh those Sources sold to retailers years ago.... 

 

 

I never changed my story. I clarified the story, and yes, sometimes I edit my posts to clarify or add information or rephrase things in a more accurate or easy to understand or clarifying manner. 

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6 minutes ago, Superdad said:

 

By any chance are you the brother of Sarah Huckabee Sanders? You sound a lot like her. 

 

I understand from various sources/chatter (industry and customer based) that you have a particular beef with LH/LH Labs, not based on crowdfunding, but dating back to the Revive vs your competitor product. Otherwise, it's very odd that Uptone would continue to attack another non-associated company on the forums like I've seen you do. Did you in fact receive your Pulse or Geek Out? If so, I'm unsure why you continue to focus your efforts on badmouthing LH instead of focusing on your own business. 

 

Other than that, Alex, I really don't know anything about you, nor have I heard anything bad about your products in general. I've only heard good things about your company, so I have no personal beef with you and have no desire to get into an LH/Uptone "war". Nor do I wish to associate myself personally or professionally with any type of war of words with you. Thanks. 

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28 minutes ago, Superdad said:

 

That is 100% false.

If you have proof of said “sources/chatter,” then I challenge you to publish or link to them.

 

 

 

1. Noted and good to know. I am sure you know how it feels when 100% false things are aimed at a company. 

2. Of course I can't/won't post confidential sources, and these were oral discussions I had, so there is no physical record of them. Be assured though, I asked around because I was perplexed as to why UpTone continually attacked us on CA, and the Revive/your product was the first (and only) thing mentioned by every single person. So there is evidently that perception floating strongly out there. 

3. If you're not trying to start a war, you're certainly doing all the things that set a war in motion. Again, we have no interest in a war or badmouthing you or your company, or defending ourselves from your company's attacks. And I personally have heard great things about your company, including the Revive competitor previously mentioned. 

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@Geoff1954 any information I get I post immediately, should it be worthy of discussion. No matter how we handle updates, we get complaints. I've documented this over and over again. If it wasn't posted officially, it probably wasn't worthy of an official update. I don't consider 2 packages of Source Signatures being slow in the mail worthy of a blast-update. I was informed however, that the two units DID make it to the office after I posted that to this forum, so if I get any additional information on them, worthy of discussion, I'll post it somewhere. Not sure where though. Handling updates is a balancing act and I do my best to keep everyone informed, as anyone who has direct experience with me knows. 

 

On the mail being slow.... from my own experiences and my industry experiences and customer chatter and LH experiences, the mail sucks. Your experience may vary. 

 

@montpierjazz LH Labs tech support is essentially non-functioning at this point. Not enough manpower, not enough time. Tickets are being reviewed periodically by me but the office generally isn't working on technical matters for LH Labs products at this point. 

 

 

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7 hours ago, Jud said:

 

In this case the 100% true things are plenty bad enough.

 

How're those Geek Waves coming along? Do you know anyone I can sell mine to, or better still, would you like to give me and anyone else who requests it our money back because I have no use or desire for the thing any more?

 

I'll acquaint you with what honorable people do. I participated in crowdfunding a security camera called Lighthouse, with AI facial recognition features. The product was delivered on time and worked extremely well. I was very happy with it. However the company was not able to make itself a going concern. Because part of the price I paid (though not the majority) was for lifetime updates, after I and others had already used the product happily for more than a year, the company offered all of us a refund of the full purchase price, not just the lifetime update portion.

 

That is what honorable people do.

 

1. I agree with you. If the 100% true things are plenty bad enough (which they are), let's not have the waters muddied any further with false claims. 

2. Depends on what type of Geek Wave you purchased and what your selling price is. 

3. There's not enough money in the till to offer refunds to people. Some companies may have that; from what I understand, we don't. That's why LH is funding LHL and projects are not being completed on time. Not everyone would get a full refund, it wouldn't be a fair process, people wouldn't understand or they'd complain about it, etc. As LH has stated multiple times on multiple avenues, this is a lost money venture. Anyway, I'm not the guy you should be talking to about a refund. I have no control over how that's handled. I just report information as I receive it. Once the Wave comes out (if it does), people are welcome to sell it or do whatever with it. Until that time, LHL will work to fuflill its backers' orders. 

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Geoff, many people have many different opinions on updates or what is acceptable for updates or what content should be included in updates. There are many who would agree with you and many who do disagree with you. Again, it's a balancing act. I've noted your thoughts though. Again, no matter what we do, we cannot please everybody. This is why we have "hard" updates (official blast updates from IGG) and "soft" updates (listed on forums and in the IGG comments).

 

Of course you don't need our permission to sell any of your merchandise. Indeed, we would like to see our merchandise in the hands of people who appreciate and like it. If you feel this isn't you, we ask you pass it on to someone who can use it.

 

The only guarantee I can give on the Sources is that LHL is working to fulfill all orders and will continue to work to fulfill all orders until a) they can no longer financially do so or b) they fulfill all orders.

 

To answer your Source question, as I previously stated: at this point, Light Harmonic version Sources are no longer in stock in Asia. They will be in stock later. LHL IGG versions are not being sold unless a dealer purchased them from us through IGG and has some on hand. LH/L has stated this many many times. Light Harmonic versions are different than the LHL IGG versions. They have different components and different funding methods. They are not the same. We have stated this multiple times. However, there seems to be continuous confusion over this.

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Geoff, LHL gets funding from LH, so LH components are needing to be sold to generate funds for LHL products. Therefore, LH products take priority as they're feeding the backers' products. Without LH, the backers cannot get products at this point.

 

The IGG campaigns were a disaster and a lost money venture. There is no money or funding in IGG itself for IGG products for this company any more. Or at the least, very little. We've stated this multiple multiple times across many many avenues.

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There is a meaningful commitment to fulfill orders, as per my previous post. There is no accurate timeline though.

 

I'll let Larry know your thoughts on sending out a blast email, but we've certainly never hid that fact regarding LHL being a lost venture on IGG. We've stated it multiple multiple times across IGG itself, Head-Fi, CA, SBAF, conversations with backers, etc. Anyone who is plugged into IGG or the campaigns should know this information, as it's always a hot topic of conversation across multiple (including IGG) platforms.

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4 minutes ago, rn701 said:

Wow, this is epic. I was curious about this outfit so I went to their website. All the buy now buttons seem to point to a nonexistent page that's replaced with a generic parked domain page.

 

Right now we aren't accepting any LH orders online through our site. They're all done by special request or through other retailers. 

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1. @tmtomh implies/tells me I shouldn't work for LH/L because I can't verify which division pays me. 

2. @EdmontonCanuck thanks me for working for LH/L and getting him his package

3. @Jud seems to agree with @tmtomh but then asks/tells me to work MORE (???) (finding posts, etc.) which would add to ($$) billable hours for me/LH/L (?) 

 

Ya'll gotta make up your minds here. 

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38 minutes ago, Geoff1954 said:

@LHCommSquad how about responding to my question about TODAY’s email on the Source?

 

Providing that information in a blast update would be beating a dead horse, but I'm certainly not opposed to it. It's not up to me either way. If it comes out in an update, you'll know it was approved. If it doesn't come out in an update, you'll know it wasn't approved. Trust me, I'm more on your side than you realize. 

 

@tmtomh I can't verify which bank account my pay comes out of. I don't know. Does it matter? 

 

On a side note, there's literally about 30 backers who continually hammer us on the forums. It's a very small number of people. The majority of backers have either a) lost interest b) moved on c) just occasionally peek in to see what's happening. Those 30 backers are usually impossible to please and literally no matter what we do or say, we get bashed by them. This forum is in particular one of the major offenders. Head-Fi has them too, IGG has them, and SBAF has them. All in all, it's the same 30 names over and over again. Some cross pollinate forums, some don't. (yes, I've talked about this before in public and private, and it's been mentioned on Head-Fi/IGG as well) 

 

All in all, we left Head-Fi for a long period of time because the same 5 people would choke conversation, hijack the topic, and start in on personal insults and essentially just call us liars. The same happened with this forum. We were content to let the small number of CA posters talk among themselves and pat each other on the back over how bad LH/L and I suck. The only reason I popped back over here (due to the hostility, negativity, etc.) was because someone erroneously mentioned a product being sold in Asia. 

 

Yes, I'm fully aware, and I'm sure the office is fully aware, of how bad the situation with LHL and the campaigns are. We're fully aware of the bad customer service and orders not being filled. At this point, the funds and resources aren't there to improve things on a massive scale. I do what I can on the forums and private correspondence to help out and get people answers and merchandise and orders. I'm in contact with the office as much as possible and try to get things accomplished with them. I am just as frustrated or even moreso frustrated with the LHL situation than any of you; I'm sure most can't/won't believe that. I've had multiple conversations with LHL over the negative situation and the way we are perceived and where our shortcomings are. Backers who have had private conversations with me can verify that information as well. 

 

 Some people are very pleased with the results of the customer service; others aren't. I get very nice letters and notes from people all the time supporting LHL and myself. The public letters are the angriest and nastiest, and those people cannot possibly understand why others are happy or supportive when they themselves are so displeased with the situation. The happy people tend to get bullied by the unhappy people, which is really sad to see. 

 

I don't think any answers I bring to the table or can bring to the table will satisfy the majority here. Literally everything I know, you guys know, and I'm sorry I don't know more and cannot provide answers that you would like to hear. No matter how we conduct business, short of full delivery or full refunds, we won't satisfy most publicly visible backers. If anyone has any legitimate questions over orders, updates, etc, I'll answer if I can or you guys can reach out to me by a variety of methods. 

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5 minutes ago, tmtomh said:

 

The finances aren't there to do anything on a massive scale - and yet you claim that only 30 backers are really upset at this point. So why not offer those 30 at least a token recompense, instead of vilifying them as a way of trying to minimize the awfulness of what LH has done? Seems like a win-win.

 

Again, this has nothing to do with me; everything to do with management. You're asking the wrong person the wrong questions. 

 

We have discussed that type of program in-depth. At this point it's not an option due to funding and/or other issues. If that program ever happens, we'll let those individuals know that option exists to them. 

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48 minutes ago, buonassi said:

not sure if this has been covered, so apologies if so.  If not, it's good info to know:

 

They've been accused of IP infringement by one of the most prolific IEM manufacturers in our hobby, Campfire Audio.

 

https://www.superbestaudiofriends.org/index.php?threads/the-one-where-campfire-and-lh-labs-clear-the-air-a-bit.5566/#post-181495

 

Then, after all of this went down with the 'asteria' IEM in 2017, they release the 'stella' in 2018.  It too appears to be a blatant rip off of the campfire audio design.

 

This company really is as low as they come.  I follow the high end IEM market and have watched prices climb into the $3k range over the past few years.  So it's clear people are willing to part ways with pretty large sums of money for personal audio nowadays and it seems LH have latched onto that exploit as well. 

 

I believe they're also listed poorly on the BBB - if that still means anything these days. 

 

This has been covered EXTENSIVELY across the internet. Ken Ball essentially retracted his statement. All members of the public and all members of the press have access to this document which outlines the entire accusation and response, including pictures: 

 

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1HrwXXAj6hpvtB9jpXDtTQOh70XboSzrNlYJ6j1qtjQs/edit?usp=sharing

 

Again, as I've mentioned before, if anyone believes LH and/or LHL is that organized to pull off what they've been accused of, in the amount of time posited, you and I know this company very differently and I'd LOVE to work for an LH full of that type of organization and efficiency. We can't even make a box on time. (Vi DAC chassis reference)

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3 hours ago, montpierjazz said:

 

Jarek - thank you for the prompt and honest response.  

 

Follow-up question: looking back I paid $62 to LH Labs for shipping of the Vi DAC on Jan 20, 2016.  That was not a "perk" as per IGG, but clearly a fee charged separately for a service that was invoiced under false pretenses and clearly not provided.  What is the most appropriate contact channel to officially request a refund?

 

First off: I apologize that backers were charged that. If it were up to me, it would not have happened. I don't know exactly what the reasoning was or who came up with that idea, but I was informed that this was done so backers wouldn't have to be tracked down at a later date when their merch was ready. Whether you believe this is up to you. 

 

At this point, no refunds are being given for IGG merchandise or the shipping. The bad part: you were charged shipping with nothing shipped. The good part: You're locked in at that shipping price, and no further action from you is necessary when your item is ready to ship. It's all taken care of at this point. So it may be a blessing in disguise, because the way operations are now.....is quite frankly, a mess. Taking care of shipping charges at this stage in the game would be an absolute nightmare. With one less hold-up or wrinkle, we can work faster with our limited staff. 

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15 hours ago, Blake said:

 

Jarek:

 

So you asked Larry about partial refunds and he said "no"?  Even if the backer in question returns a Pulse and/or LPS to LH?

 

 

 

 

It's been discussed lots of times and in many different ways. It's been theorized, discussed, planned, pulled, and discussed again. At this point, it's not happening. It's not completely off the table, but right now, it's not a reality for LHL. If I could make it happen, I would. The logistics at this point, with funding, organization, etc. don't make it possible. LHL would love to make it happen. If we have more to announce on that, I'll announce it. 

 

On a side note, since it's been mentioned here: We sent out a Wave update in Sept. 2017 regarding Wave funds: 

https://support.lhlabs.com/solution/articles/13000037906-faq-did-lh-labs-use-wave-s-funding-to-sponsor-other-products-

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I already shared this with another member here privately, but I'll post it again, since it's just sitting here. This was from September 2017 and a ****ROUGH DRAFT**** of an update we never published, due to a variety of reasons. I've mentioned this before, but we have various updates that in the old days (from when I started) that I/Larry wanted to share, but Larry wanted certain updates to come out at certain times, since various updates tied into other updates. They weren't consecutive "boom boom boom" updates, per se. An update would be written, but be held off because it would tie into another update coming out later, and Larry was wanting the narrative/facts to be cohesive. Anyway, this never got released, but I'll post it here to clear up any confusion. 

 

"LH Labs was founded in 2014 by Gavin Fish, Kim Kaplan, Steve Holt and Larry as a team effort that focused on crowd funding as a separated entity (apart from Light Harmonic). Gavin and Larry mentioned this a few times in early 2014. But it become blurred between Light Harmonic and LH Labs after Gavin took off and Kim/Steve’s departure. 

 

It's a fact that due to the R&D process, cost is uncertain in crowd-funded campaigns. LH Labs’ IGG campaigns are usually on a small or big “loss” financially. Light Harmonic on the other hand, sells at high cost gear (like DaVinci, Tesla Audio, LightSpeed USB cable, etc.) which generates healthy income for LH Labs. So, because of the business math and model, there are a lot of times Larry needs the Light Harmonic team to work on sales (for Light Harmonic) to generate more income to nourish the projects of LH Labs.

 

Originally what Larry and team had hoped was that after delivering IGG campaign products, the retail sales of IGG products would keep generating good revenue. But the truth they found, is once you have a big discount price in IGG, your

retail dealer or other offline channel won’t be willing to touch that product, especially in the current exploding audiophile market.

 

IGG related products are not a failure. But businesswise, it doesn’t make any sense at all. So Gavin made his decision to leave and there are no hard feelings between Larry and Gavin. They are still on good terms and speak often. [edit for CA/AS community: we mentioned this due to a rumor online (one of many, understandably) that there was bad blood between Gavin and Larry]

 

Larry is still the owner of Light Harmonic and he feels very responsible for the promise given to IGG backers. So  he keeps plugging away, doing everything he can to deliver the products with the budget he has and the manpower available to him.  Again, he has never stopped working on these projects. He has no intention of walking away before these projects are completed. However, it is not possible for the company to devote 100% time and resources on these projects, especially since they are losing money. It is a tricky balancing act and we don't pretend it isn't.

 

 With that said, let's put some of the rumors to rest: Light Harmonic is supporting the funding of LH Labs; not the other way around. The Tesla project was developed and started before the Wave campaign. All IGG campaign money stayed within each individual campaign. There was no cross-seeding of funds. Light Harmonic (Tesla, etc.) is growing LH Labs and keeping these projects alive.

 

The backers and Larry/the team are all in the same boat. Larry is honestly trying to make the best products he can, and deliver exactly what he promised, within every bit of his capabilities within the parameters of the business. We are very sorry if anything LH did or said gave off the impression that your money was being taken to fund anything but the projects you paid for. It's very complicated business, and we hope backers understand the truth.

 

Larry has great faith in the projects, and is working hard on them at this very moment in China. In further updates, we are going to share what exactly he has been doing in China, how far along the projects are, and be more open and transparent about the financial aspect of the IGG campaigns.

 

There have also been some concerns about LH as a company – is there staff, are there offices open, is LH financially sound, etc. We are going to share all of that information as well in future updates and we are truly sorry if anything we did gave off the impression otherwise." 

 

Of course, there are other things I'm privvy to that went on behind the scenes that weren't mentioned in this update, but at this point it's all just gossip from the past and Larry doesn't like to point fingers at past staff.

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Here's another update we put out which chronicles the Wave development history: 

 

https://support.lhlabs.com/solution/articles/13000037907-faq-why-geek-wave-project-took-so-long-

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1 hour ago, Jud said:

 

The amount pledged for the Wave project at IGG was $1.6 million.

Addressed here in Sept 2017: 

https://support.lhlabs.com/solution/articles/13000037906-faq-did-lh-labs-use-wave-s-funding-to-sponsor-other-products-

 

"First of all, please know that the $1.6M USD shown on Indiegogo campaign is not 100% directly related to Geek Wave project. There is Geek Source music server, Pulse DAC combo, Headphone holiday sales of Hifiman, Audeze, DSD music download, USB 1G/2G Cable, and IEM-X, Vibrato earbud... there. In order to get the exact number, we downloaded from Indiegogo backend and remove all the none-wave-related perks in that Excel. The overall number and funding we got for Geek Wave development and manufacturing is $680,869.28 (After 9% deduction from Indiegogo's commission and Paypal's transaction fee) 

 

For a big project to develop a super high-end portable player, this $680K+ is really not a lot and we always carefully using it. There is no room to sponsor any other products by this fund. "

 

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53 minutes ago, bernardperu said:

 Another forum, Head-Fi, has done an awful job at protecting our rights as consumers.

 

 

 

I'd like to clarify this:

 

1. Head-Fi is not a consumer protection agency, and has no obligation to act as one.

2. I happen to personally know that the reason the threads at Head-Fi haven't been shut down is because Head-Fi is concerned it would be accused of NOT helping customers of LHL get and share information (you seem to be advocating for that communication avenue to be shut down)

3. Light Harmonic threads (not LHL) and reviews for non-IGG merch are banned at Head-Fi until at LEAST the campaigns are completed. (personal knowledge)

4. LH/L don't sponsor over at Head-Fi nor have we ever discussed that option, nor would we be allowed to.

5. They don't allow personal attacks, and have removed posts with personal attacks, much to the chagrin of some members. Head-Fi has community standards that members must follow. 

6. The members appreciate Head-Fi as it gives them a direct avenue of communication between themselves and LHL and those threads are still active with participants.

 

By any objective standards, Head-Fi has done a fine job of protecting consumer interests.

 

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2 hours ago, marflao said:

 

Have my doubts regarding point #3, Jarek. 

Remember the discussion we had around the Stella review which was done by one of the "pro" reviewers?

Although the "article" - if I'm not mistaken - was not published on HF the guy posted the link to his site. 

Still enough marketing for LH stuff... 

 

2 and 3 are 100% confirmed by Jude himself. They may or may not be allowing links, but nothing about Light Harmonic regarding threads or dedicated review pages on Head-Fi is allowed. The anti-Head-Fi comments are perplexing to say the least....I don't believe they've acted unfairly towards backers, and they haven't really acted unfairly towards us....