Light Harmonic (LH Labs). Scam? USD$6 million not delivered since 2014

[tmtomh]

 

On 1/4/2019 at 2:00 AM, LHCommSquad said:

It seems we're in a stalemate then. There are no proofs of IGG Sources being sold, and there are no proofs of IGG Sources being delivered yet. Seems like both sides have claims that haven't been proven false or honest yet. 

 

This is the aspect of your approach and attitude, as someone with "10 years Customer Service background," that just stuns me. This isn't a debate where there are "both sides." This is a company - LH/LHL - and a group of people who are a customer/investor hybrid. This is not a contest of peers or equals, nor is it a situation in which two parties have a symmetrical level or degree of responsibility to each other. Folks have paid their money already, sometimes $1,000s, and have been waiting for years, only to get nothing. As customers the evidence suggests that many of them have been fleeced. As investors, they've simply made a bad bet - but as you surely know, when there is evidence of incompetence, poor performance, or possible false representations, even investors have cause to sue and seek redress (and they certainly are not shy about expressing their displeasure). So either way, LHL - which you are part of by virtue of getting paid to represent them - owes something to its backers, and its backers owe LHL nothing.

 

While neither you nor LHL should simply accept lies told about you, or ad hominem abuse directed at you, when it comes to questions, serious concerns, and claims that are reasonable and logical, your job is to clearly and apologetically acknowledge claims about LHL that are accurate or substantively true, and to correct the record specifically, precisely, and non-defensively when they are not. Your role is not to introduce yourself as someone who is "here to help" and then act as though you are an unaffiliated, neutral mediator between two sides that are equally irrational and/or equally prone to bad actions or false statements.

 

In this regard, it's quite striking that you haven't once apologized to any of the backers who've posted in this thread.

 

 

On 1/4/2019 at 2:55 AM, LHCommSquad said:

 

1. Noted and good to know. I am sure you know how it feels when 100% false things are aimed at a company. 

 

No, no, no, no. "When 100% false things are aimed at a company" - that is a terribly misleading and deflecting statement, and you know it (or should know it). So too is this:

 

On 1/4/2019 at 2:03 PM, LHCommSquad said:

No matter how we handle updates, we get complaints. I've documented this over and over again.

 

This makes it sound like you have tried every reasonable manner of handling updates, which you most certainly have not. It is a norm in backer-based campaigns, across all the platforms, for backers to get regular, direct emailed, periodic updates on the campaign. I never backed an LHL IGG campaign (thankfully), but I've done others and of course some of the updates are dressed-up nothing-burgers. I've also backed one campaign that is 2-3 years behind the original delivery date.

 

But the company provides updates directly to the backers - they don't require backers to search out threads on specialist web forums, and then scold backers with "I've said this over and over" - that's just appalling customer service behavior.

 

And while you might not have had any control over prior direct-communication opportunities, you are the one who's now scolding your backers and making it sound like the problem is that your irrational backers will complain "no matter how you handle updates." Shame on you. You know full well that you are in the position of getting inevitable complaints not because of communication, but rather because of a failure to deliver the products themselves. The correct response is to apologize repeatedly and offer some form of recompense, even if limited finances make it a token offering. The correct response is not to paint yourself as a hapless victim of a mob of angry people.

 

 

On 1/4/2019 at 4:29 PM, LHCommSquad said:

There is a meaningful commitment to fulfill orders, as per my previous post. There is no accurate timeline though.

 

If there is no accurate timeline - in other words no timeline at all - then any stated commitment to fulfill orders is by definition not meaningful. This is the same as your "both sides" deflection and your "I volunteered my time, I am getting paid" formulation. 

 

You can engage in doublespeak, or you can engage in the "I'm going to be straight with you even if it comes off as not very customer-friendly" approach. But you can't engage in both at the same time.

 

 

On 1/4/2019 at 12:16 AM, LHCommSquad said:

If anyone finds a Source for sale in Asia, please let us and the community know by taking a) a clear picture b) price of unit and c) location [store] of the unit. Please verify from the retail shop owner if it's a Light Harmonic version or an IGG version. If you can get a peek at the internals, please also let us know with a picture. Please also verify the date and time you found the unit.

 

I will be happy to do this. Simply pre-pay me $3,000 via PayPal, and I will fly to the Asian cities in question, personally survey their inventory, and send you any photographic evidence I might find. I can't say right now exactly when I'll get to it, but you can rest assured that I have a meaningful commitment to follow through.

[tmtomh]

59 minutes ago, LHCommSquad said:

 

Right now we aren't accepting any LH orders online through our site. They're all done by special request or through other retailers. 

 

Can you verify that none of the money that's paying for your salary/consultancy has come from the pockets of the IGG backers?

[tmtomh]

54 minutes ago, LHCommSquad said:

1. @tmtomh implies/tells me I shouldn't work for LH/L because I can't verify which division pays me. 

 

 

Ya'll gotta make up your minds here. 

 

I told you no such thing, and I do not think you shouldn't work for LH/L (although it would help if you clarified if you work for LH, for LHL, or both, since apparently they are separate companies). I merely asked a question. If you can't answer it, just say so.

 

This isn't about you. Stop trying to win arguments and start acting like the customer service expert you claim to be.

[tmtomh]

2 minutes ago, LHCommSquad said:

 

Providing that information in a blast update would be beating a dead horse, but I'm certainly not opposed to it. It's not up to me either way. If it comes out in an update, you'll know it was approved. If it doesn't come out in an update, you'll know it wasn't approved. Trust me, I'm more on your side than you realize. 

 

@tmtomh I can't verify which bank account my pay comes out of. I don't know. Does it matter? 

 

On a side note, there's literally about 30 backers who continually hammer us on the forums. It's a very small number of people. The majority of backers have either a) lost interest b) moved on c) just occasionally peek in to see what's happening. Those 30 backers are usually impossible to please and literally no matter what we do or say, we get bashed by them. This forum is in particular one of the major offenders. Head-Fi has them too, IGG has them, and SBAF has them. All in all, it's the same 30 names over and over again. Some cross pollinate forums, some don't. (yes, I've talked about this before in public and private, and it's been mentioned on Head-Fi/IGG as well) 

 

All in all, we left Head-Fi for a long period of time because the same 5 people would choke conversation, hijack the topic, and start in on personal insults and essentially just call us liars. The same happened with this forum. We were content to let the small number of CA posters talk among itself and pat each other on the back over how bad LH/L and I suck. The only reason I popped back over here (due to the hostility, negativity, etc.) was because someone erroneously mentioned a product being sold in Asia. 

 

Yes, I'm fully aware, and I'm sure the office is fully aware, of how bad the situation with LHL and the campaigns are. We're fully aware of the bad customer service and orders not being filled. At this point, the funds and resources aren't there to improve things on a massive scale. I do what I can on the forums and private correspondence to help out and get people answers and merchandise and orders. I'm in contact with the office as much as possible and try to get things accomplished with them. I am just as frustrated or even moreso frustrated with the LHL situation than any of you; I'm sure most can't/won't believe that. I've had multiple conversations with LHL over the negative situation and the way we are perceived and where our shortcomings are. Backers who have had private conversations with me can verify that information as well. 

 

 Some people are very pleased with the results of the customer service; others aren't. I get very nice letters and notes from people all the time supporting LHL and myself. The public letters are the angriest and nastiest, and those people cannot possibly understand why others are happy or supportive when they themselves are so displeased with the situation. The happy people tend to get bullied by the unhappy people, which is really sad to see. 

 

I don't think any answers I bring to the table or can bring to the table will satisfy the majority here. Literally everything I know, you guys know, and I'm sorry I don't know more and cannot provide answers that you would like to hear. No matter how we conduct business, short of full delivery or full refunds, we won't satisfy most publicly visible backers. If anyone has any legitimate questions over orders, updates, etc, I'll answer if I can or you guys can reach out to me by a variety of methods. 

 

The finances aren't there to do anything on a massive scale - and yet you claim that only 30 backers are really upset at this point. So why not offer those 30 at least a token recompense, instead of vilifying them as a way of trying to minimize the awfulness of what LH has done? Seems like a win-win.

[tmtomh]

8 minutes ago, LHCommSquad said:

 

Again, this has nothing to do with me; everything to do with management. You're asking the wrong person the wrong questions. 

 

We have discussed that type of program in-depth. At this point it's not an option due to funding and/or other issues. If that program ever happens, we'll let those individuals know that option exists to them. 

 

If there's nothing you can do, then why are you here? So far all you've done is vilify your own customers - accusing them of telling lies about your company and characterizing them as a tiny group of "main offenders," impossible-to-please cranks who "cross-pollinate across forums." 

 

If your purpose here is simply to try to defend a company with no reputation left to defend, then @The Computer Audiophile might want to consider bouncing your user account (or I should say your two accounts, which violates the forum's policies I believe) right out of here. The only thing worse than a PR flak is a PR flak who claims they're something else.

[tmtomh]

On 1/8/2019 at 8:46 PM, LHCommSquad said:

Yes, I'm fully aware, and I'm sure the office is fully aware, of how bad the situation with LHL and the campaigns are. We're fully aware of the bad customer service and orders not being filled.

 

Some people are very pleased with the results of the customer service; others aren't. I get very nice letters and notes from people all the time supporting LHL and myself. The public letters are the angriest and nastiest, and those people cannot possibly understand why others are happy or supportive when they themselves are so displeased with the situation. The happy people tend to get bullied by the unhappy people, which is really sad to see. 

 

I don't think any answers I bring to the table or can bring to the table will satisfy the majority here. Literally everything I know, you guys know, and I'm sorry I don't know more and cannot provide answers that you would like to hear. No matter how we conduct business, short of full delivery or full refunds, we won't satisfy most publicly visible backers. If anyone has any legitimate questions over orders, updates, etc, I'll answer if I can or you guys can reach out to me by a variety of methods. 

 

Still no simple, unqualified apology, from you on behalf of LHL, to the customers who paid money and have gotten nothing. Why is that so difficult for you to do?

 

Why is it so difficult for you to understand that a customer's tone in their messages, or their level of visibility on forums, has absolutely, positively nothing to do with whether or not they deserve an apology?

 

Why is it so difficult for you to understand that even if an apology won't quell all their complaints, it's still the the necessary, expected, and right thing to do?

 

Why is it so difficult for you to understand that an apology needs to be made without strings attached?  (By making such an apology you would not give up your prerogative -  you still would be free to defend the company in other, separate statements/comments.)

 

And why is it so difficult for you to understand that by vilifying and trying to isolate a "small group of unhappy people," you are only reinforcing the cycle of people posting across multiple forums, continually weighing in on threads, and continually sending you nasty notes? So long as LHL won't give them even a token or symbolic bit of satisfaction to help relieve some of their frustration, and so long as LHL keeps poking them with a stick as you have here, the cycle will continue. You are LHL, you are the company - you are the one who needs to be the adult and de-escalate. Why is that so difficult for you to grasp?

[tmtomh]

5 hours ago, LHCommSquad said:

 

Again, there was no grinning involved at any point, nor do I expect there will be, regardless of the outcome. That's why we literally offered to help you/the backers involved on the list. You can do whatever you want with the list; we don't care. We just offered to help with it from our end.

 

Does or does not LH have a list of the people who have paid for products, and whether or not they have received them?

[tmtomh]

2 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Not sure I’d take such a list at face value 😳

 

Be that as it may, I'm just trying fo find out from @LHCommSquad if LH even has such a list. I would assume they do. But if they don't, then they are really in big trouble.

[tmtomh]

1 hour ago, LHCommSquad said:

 

Hi Chris, of course they have a list and an order system. However, due to multiple system shuffles before my time, many records were lost and the records are not exact. This is why we've asked people who have not received merchandise or who don't see their records or invoices in our system to check with us. (and before it gets mentioned, yes, the storefront is down for an undetermined amount of time, the backend still exists with order information, and any questions can be submitted via ticket or email or PM or whatever)

 

Wow.

 

@Jud, @marflao, and anyone else who's interested: An Attorney General is likely to be quite interested to learn that not only did the company apparently take orders for new campaigns without having fulfilled the old ones, and seemingly not account for the money transparently - but based on the bolded statement above, it also doesn't even have complete or reliable records showing who is still owed merchandise.

 

I fully believe @LHCommSquad that this is the result of incompetence rather than any malicious intent - but from where I sit (and I am not a legal professional, just a layperson), it seems like a level of negligence that would potentially open up LH to serious civil liability, and when combined with the other circumstances of the situation,  perhaps even criminal prosecution.

 

Appalling. Just appalling.

[tmtomh]

1 hour ago, LHCommSquad said:

2. Whatever I think about "helping" vs "enabling" I am sure will have no bearing on what others who have a pre-existing disposition feel, so that's a pointless conversation to have.

 

What about those who have a disposition that's not pre-existing, but rather is based on the content the comments you've posted here in this thread?

[tmtomh]

6 hours ago, LHCommSquad said:

 

Unfortunately, the above is not my personal decision to make. (and I've suggested refunds multiple times) However, the suggestions I gave Alex are definitely within his realm of control and personal decision making. 😀

 

Then you have no purpose having a special LH account here, or having two accounts, which is otherwise against the rules. So I would renew the request for @The Computer Audiophile to delete either your @LHCommSquad or @stuck limo account from this site.

[tmtomh]

11 hours ago, LHCommSquad said:

 

If you talked about that, I missed it. If you would like your unit repaired (hopefully correctly), PM me your details and we can see what can be done. I already talked to Larry about it and he said the office can work on that.

 

Is there any reason you continue to post here other than to justify whatever billable hours you submit to LH?

 

I know that sounds snarky, but I'm actually honestly asking: I can't possibly see the benefit to LH or to this forum of you engaging in a petty argument with @Superdad while the elephant still is in the room: he has shipping, functioning products and you/LH do not.

[tmtomh]

On 10/24/2019 at 2:20 PM, LHCommSquad said:

Also, I have no idea why you're being snarky or aggressive towards me in public when you were so nice to me in your PMs. I don't know if you're trying to "fit in" with the crowd here or what. 

 

Once again, not the point. You are getting paid to post these comments here, and your paid role is supposed to be to relay useful information and help LH's customers. This is not a conversation among unpaid peer-members of a community where people owe you explanations or politeness (beyond baseline civility).

 

If you want people to be nicer to you and to stop constantly trying to hold you accountable for the bad behavior of the person/company that is paying you, then post under your personal @stuck limo (or is it @stuck_limo?) username, not your @LHCommSquad one.

 

All of this has been explained to you many times - and it should not even have to be explained to you once. It's quite mystifying that you are conducting yourself in this way. The only rational explanation at this point is that more time spent here = more billables you can submit to LH. Absent a compelling alternative explanation, I would renew my request for @The Computer Audiophile to ban the @LHCommSquad account from this site.

 

[tmtomh]

1 hour ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

both stuck accounts now merged.

 

 

 

Any chance of merging the Stuck Limo and LHCommSquad accounts since they are the same person?

[tmtomh]

8 hours ago, stuck limo said:

 

 

 

The crowd turns....

 

So do you bill LH for your comments posted here as @stuck limo or only for the ones you make as @LHCommSquad?

[tmtomh]

10 hours ago, LHCommSquad said:

 

I haven't collected a check from LH/L in months. I'm on a volunteer basis for now, at least temporarily. (my choice)

 

But to answer the question, I would only bill them for LHCommSquad comments. The LH account was only for work related purposes and for clarity over who I was to people. Occasionally there may a mistake on my part (in case anyone wants to dig) if I'm logged into the wrong account or something. But, no, they don't get billed for non LH stuff. 

 

Thanks for the reply. One would think that not getting paid by LH would give you some empathy for the folks ripped off by them, but perhaps not.

 

Do you have any concern that someone newly coming to this thread who sees Stuck Limo posting comments that are in agreement with what LHCommSquad says would be misled by not knowing that both are the same person?

[tmtomh]

8 hours ago, LHCommSquad said:

 

No, I just simply didn't bill them.

 

Thanks for the explanation.

 

How about the question I asked you before: Do you have any concern that someone newly coming to this thread who sees Stuck Limo posting comments that are in agreement with what LHCommSquad says would be misled by not knowing that both are the same person?

[tmtomh]

On 12/22/2019 at 5:01 PM, LHCommSquad said:

 

That information you are repeating is false. LH's Chinese office is aware of that post/page from 6 months ago, and it was already addressed in the Chinese market. The information came from a bad actor in Shanghai. The fail rate in the world market is is actually extremely low and we've sold 10 in China this year alone. We only have one in the office right now, swapping from a 120v to a 240v and that customer is actually thinking about upgrading to a Mk II version. Thanks.

 

So what is the failure rate?

[tmtomh]

25 minutes ago, stuck limo said:

That's very different than what you insinuated or presented to the forum. That was an offer to make you whole, not bribe you with money to Make you quit talking about us. 

 

In your presented scenario, we would have given you money, still kept whatever money you paid, and then sent you your merchandise. 

 

In the actual scenario, we floated the idea of refunding you, not sending your merchandise, and then have you not discuss us anymore because there was no need to since you got a refund of some sort. 

 

@The Computer Audiophile, I'm sorry to raise this issue again, but I have to renew my respectful request that you eliminate either the @stuck limo or @LHCommSquad account. Jarek, via his LHCommSquad account, asked @bernardperu to substantiate a claim he'd made about something shady LH/Jarek did. Then when Bernard provided direct substantiation, Jarek replied, via his Stuck Limo account, criticizing Bernard and claiming Bernard's evidence was not actually evidence.

 

Jarek posted under the Stuck Limo ID less than 40 minutes after he'd posted under the LH ID. I think this is completely unethical behavior on the forum, and removing one of Jarek's two identities is the least he deserves. As you know, I have repeatedly pushed back against some folks' tendency to label others here as "shills." But this is a case where I think reasonable people can agree that Jarek is a shill. Personally I think you should permanently kick him off the site entirely, but of course that's not my call.

 

Chris, I stress this is not a complaint about your moderating - I'm just furious at Jarek's appallingly unethical behavior and am hoping there can be some consequence for it here.

[tmtomh]

29 minutes ago, stuck limo said:

That's very different than what you insinuated or presented to the forum. That was an offer to make you whole, not bribe you with money to Make you quit talking about us. 

 

Here are the exact words you wrote in the message exchange @bernardperu posted a screenshot of above:

 

"What would make you happy so you don't post negative about us anymore?"

 

You were asking him what kind of refund he would accept so he would quit talking about you. It is clear as day - quid pro quo, in fact. 😊

 

You are behaving despicably.

[tmtomh]

14 minutes ago, LHCommSquad said:

 

Dude it was a mistake with my login. I have guests and I'm responding in between activities. Quit harassing Chris. You've asked him like 5 times now. If Chris thinks it's worth it, he will. He can run his own forum without you needling him over and over. 

 

Assuming for the sake of conversation that I were to offer you compensation for some of the time you've spent posting here recently (since you haven't billed LH), what would you accept? How much would it take to make you happy so you'd get back to your guests and stop posting here under two separate identities?

I'm not trying to bribe you - just saying that if I gave you a certain amount of money, it would then become unnecessary for you to continue posting here since you would be happy.

[tmtomh]

2 hours ago, stuck limo said:

 

The information I gave you was based on the information I had directly from the office. I did not lie to you, nor would I have had any reason to lie to you, nor have I lied to any customers.  But I suppose its easier to blame me and lash out at me from desperation and frustration than it is to blame the people behind the origin of the information, especially when they aren't publicly around to blame.

 

Then why do you continue to act as a conduit between LH and its customers?

[tmtomh]

3 hours ago, stuck limo said:

 

He's in the US for Chinese New Year overseeing the office. Thanks. 

 

Can be be arrested while he's here?