Light Harmonic (LH Labs). Scam? USD$6 million not delivered since 2014

[jjraffin]

I was burned (so far) for a Vi DAC tube, a Source and a Wave. I will now not touch anything from IGG more than $100.

 

All three of these products are mostly obsolete even if they did arrive in 2019.

 

From previous comments about partial refunds, I’d take a large cut to get something for my money. Or products that have some value like Lightspeed 10G cables. Maybe I’m just at the “bargaining” stage of grief...

[tmtomh]

On 1/8/2019 at 8:46 PM, LHCommSquad said:

Yes, I'm fully aware, and I'm sure the office is fully aware, of how bad the situation with LHL and the campaigns are. We're fully aware of the bad customer service and orders not being filled.

 

Some people are very pleased with the results of the customer service; others aren't. I get very nice letters and notes from people all the time supporting LHL and myself. The public letters are the angriest and nastiest, and those people cannot possibly understand why others are happy or supportive when they themselves are so displeased with the situation. The happy people tend to get bullied by the unhappy people, which is really sad to see. 

 

I don't think any answers I bring to the table or can bring to the table will satisfy the majority here. Literally everything I know, you guys know, and I'm sorry I don't know more and cannot provide answers that you would like to hear. No matter how we conduct business, short of full delivery or full refunds, we won't satisfy most publicly visible backers. If anyone has any legitimate questions over orders, updates, etc, I'll answer if I can or you guys can reach out to me by a variety of methods. 

 

Still no simple, unqualified apology, from you on behalf of LHL, to the customers who paid money and have gotten nothing. Why is that so difficult for you to do?

 

Why is it so difficult for you to understand that a customer's tone in their messages, or their level of visibility on forums, has absolutely, positively nothing to do with whether or not they deserve an apology?

 

Why is it so difficult for you to understand that even if an apology won't quell all their complaints, it's still the the necessary, expected, and right thing to do?

 

Why is it so difficult for you to understand that an apology needs to be made without strings attached?  (By making such an apology you would not give up your prerogative -  you still would be free to defend the company in other, separate statements/comments.)

 

And why is it so difficult for you to understand that by vilifying and trying to isolate a "small group of unhappy people," you are only reinforcing the cycle of people posting across multiple forums, continually weighing in on threads, and continually sending you nasty notes? So long as LHL won't give them even a token or symbolic bit of satisfaction to help relieve some of their frustration, and so long as LHL keeps poking them with a stick as you have here, the cycle will continue. You are LHL, you are the company - you are the one who needs to be the adult and de-escalate. Why is that so difficult for you to grasp?

[Shadders]

Hi,

I looked at the Indiegogo website, and can it be assumed that people funded this through the perk system, where they were expecting the product at a discount once designed ???

 

Question i have is, how many people who paid for this perk have not received ?.

 

Are LH Labs required to state how many people have paid and received their unit ?

 

Without this open information, it is impossible to see where the $3million went. I notice that the other funded projects are much less than $3million, about 1/10th of the $3million.

 

They already have a prototype for the unit - pictures - so, surely this is a production issue ?.

 

Since there is $3million and an existing prototype, it was a case of refining and production ?

 

What was the initial target for crowd funding ?. Given that the others are 1/10th of the $3million.

 

If people have already received the product and are happy - why can the remaining orders not be fulfilled with $3million capital to ensure bulk purchase of components reduces all costs significantly ??.

 

Regards,

Shadders.

[Blake]

On 1/8/2019 at 6:53 PM, LHCommSquad said:

 

Again, this has nothing to do with me; everything to do with management. You're asking the wrong person the wrong questions. 

 

We have discussed that type of program in-depth. At this point it's not an option due to funding and/or other issues. If that program ever happens, we'll let those individuals know that option exists to them. 

 

Jarek:

 

So you asked Larry about partial refunds and he said "no"?  Even if the backer in question returns a Pulse and/or LPS to LH?

 

 

 

[Jud]

2 hours ago, Shadders said:

Hi,

I looked at the Indiegogo website, and can it be assumed that people funded this through the perk system, where they were expecting the product at a discount once designed ???

 

Question i have is, how many people who paid for this perk have not received ?.

 

Are LH Labs required to state how many people have paid and received their unit ?

 

Without this open information, it is impossible to see where the $3million went. I notice that the other funded projects are much less than $3million, about 1/10th of the $3million.

 

They already have a prototype for the unit - pictures - so, surely this is a production issue ?.

 

Since there is $3million and an existing prototype, it was a case of refining and production ?

 

What was the initial target for crowd funding ?. Given that the others are 1/10th of the $3million.

 

If people have already received the product and are happy - why can the remaining orders not be fulfilled with $3million capital to ensure bulk purchase of components reduces all costs significantly ??.

 

Regards,

Shadders.

 

I'm not sure what you were looking at on IGG, but the figure I saw on the site for funds raised for the LHL Geek Wave project alone was over $1.6 million.  Not a single person has received a final production model. As far as I know, there is not even a fully working prototype.  So very obviously, as I mentioned before, this $1.6 million for this particular project cannot be tied up in parts and inventory.

 

Since LHL appears to be claiming there is no money left, the unavoidable conclusion seems to be that most of the $1.6 million was either wasted or siphoned off for other purposes.

[Solstice380]

Is it time for the affected people to start a class action lawsuit?  I’m sure one of those ambulance-chaser lawyers that advertise on TV will take on the case (for 50% of the awarded damages!).

[Shadders]

3 minutes ago, Jud said:

 

I'm not sure what you were looking at on IGG, but the figure I saw on the site for funds raised for the LHL Geek Wave project alone was over $1.6 million.  Not a single person has received a final production model. As far as I know, there is not even a fully working prototype.  So very obviously, as I mentioned before, this $1.6 million for this particular project cannot be tied up in parts and inventory.

 

Since LHL appears to be claiming there is no money left, the unavoidable conclusion seems to be that most of the $1.6 million was either wasted or siphoned off for other purposes.

Hi Jud,

I was looking at the Pulse DAC.

 

When  you visit the Indiegogo website it is the first one that appears for LH Labs. On the LH Labs website, it did not appear in the Products pull down - but only from a Google search.

 

So, does this mean that the Pulse DAC $3million and the Geek Wave $1.6million need to be added together ?

 

Or was the Pulse DAC always available ?

 

Regards,

Shadders.

[Jud]

3 minutes ago, Shadders said:

Hi Jud,

I was looking at the Pulse DAC.

 

When  you visit the Indiegogo website it is the first one that appears for LH Labs. On the LH Labs website, it did not appear in the Products pull down - but only from a Google search.

 

So, does this mean that the Pulse DAC $3million and the Geek Wave $1.6million need to be added together ?

 

Or was the Pulse DAC always available ?

 

Regards,

Shadders.

 

For LHL projects other than the Wave, of which there are a few, I think the Geek Out v2 may have been the only one where most or all customers received a product.  But I have not followed these, just read the complaints, so the best information would come from backers of these other projects.

 

Yes you would add the pledges for the various projects to get the total.  @Superdad mentioned that when he added it all up a couple of years ago, it was around $5 million at that time.

[Jud]

22 minutes ago, Solstice380 said:

Is it time for the affected people to start a class action lawsuit?  I’m sure one of those ambulance-chaser lawyers that advertise on TV will take on the case (for 50% of the awarded damages!).

 

I would think that would be throwing good money after bad.  Expenses would come from the clients' pockets, and I would not be surprised if any money sent to LHL was now unreachable.

[Solstice380]

54 minutes ago, Jud said:

 

I would think that would be throwing good money after bad.  Expenses would come from the clients' pockets, and I would not be surprised if any money sent to LHL was now unreachable.

 

Yeah, it looks a lot like a Ponzi with the different companies!

[montpierjazz]

On 1/4/2019 at 1:03 PM, LHCommSquad said:

@montpierjazz LH Labs tech support is essentially non-functioning at this point. Not enough manpower, not enough time. Tickets are being reviewed periodically by me but the office generally isn't working on technical matters for LH Labs products at this point. 

 

 

 

Jarek - thank you for the prompt and honest response.  

 

Follow-up question: looking back I paid $62 to LH Labs for shipping of the Vi DAC on Jan 20, 2016.  That was not a "perk" as per IGG, but clearly a fee charged separately for a service that was invoiced under false pretenses and clearly not provided.  What is the most appropriate contact channel to officially request a refund?

[buonassi]

not sure if this has been covered, so apologies if so.  If not, it's good info to know:

 

They've been accused of IP infringement by one of the most prolific IEM manufacturers in our hobby, Campfire Audio.

 

https://www.superbestaudiofriends.org/index.php?threads/the-one-where-campfire-and-lh-labs-clear-the-air-a-bit.5566/#post-181495

 

Then, after all of this went down with the 'asteria' IEM in 2017, they release the 'stella' in 2018.  It too appears to be a blatant rip off of the campfire audio design.

 

This company really is as low as they come.  I follow the high end IEM market and have watched prices climb into the $3k range over the past few years.  So it's clear people are willing to part ways with pretty large sums of money for personal audio nowadays and it seems LH have latched onto that exploit as well. 

 

I believe they're also listed poorly on the BBB - if that still means anything these days. 

[Superdad]

..

[stuck limo]

48 minutes ago, buonassi said:

not sure if this has been covered, so apologies if so.  If not, it's good info to know:

 

They've been accused of IP infringement by one of the most prolific IEM manufacturers in our hobby, Campfire Audio.

 

https://www.superbestaudiofriends.org/index.php?threads/the-one-where-campfire-and-lh-labs-clear-the-air-a-bit.5566/#post-181495

 

Then, after all of this went down with the 'asteria' IEM in 2017, they release the 'stella' in 2018.  It too appears to be a blatant rip off of the campfire audio design.

 

This company really is as low as they come.  I follow the high end IEM market and have watched prices climb into the $3k range over the past few years.  So it's clear people are willing to part ways with pretty large sums of money for personal audio nowadays and it seems LH have latched onto that exploit as well. 

 

I believe they're also listed poorly on the BBB - if that still means anything these days. 

 

This has been covered EXTENSIVELY across the internet. Ken Ball essentially retracted his statement. All members of the public and all members of the press have access to this document which outlines the entire accusation and response, including pictures: 

 

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1HrwXXAj6hpvtB9jpXDtTQOh70XboSzrNlYJ6j1qtjQs/edit?usp=sharing

 

Again, as I've mentioned before, if anyone believes LH and/or LHL is that organized to pull off what they've been accused of, in the amount of time posited, you and I know this company very differently and I'd LOVE to work for an LH full of that type of organization and efficiency. We can't even make a box on time. (Vi DAC chassis reference)

[stuck limo]

3 hours ago, montpierjazz said:

 

Jarek - thank you for the prompt and honest response.  

 

Follow-up question: looking back I paid $62 to LH Labs for shipping of the Vi DAC on Jan 20, 2016.  That was not a "perk" as per IGG, but clearly a fee charged separately for a service that was invoiced under false pretenses and clearly not provided.  What is the most appropriate contact channel to officially request a refund?

 

First off: I apologize that backers were charged that. If it were up to me, it would not have happened. I don't know exactly what the reasoning was or who came up with that idea, but I was informed that this was done so backers wouldn't have to be tracked down at a later date when their merch was ready. Whether you believe this is up to you. 

 

At this point, no refunds are being given for IGG merchandise or the shipping. The bad part: you were charged shipping with nothing shipped. The good part: You're locked in at that shipping price, and no further action from you is necessary when your item is ready to ship. It's all taken care of at this point. So it may be a blessing in disguise, because the way operations are now.....is quite frankly, a mess. Taking care of shipping charges at this stage in the game would be an absolute nightmare. With one less hold-up or wrinkle, we can work faster with our limited staff. 

[stuck limo]

15 hours ago, Blake said:

 

Jarek:

 

So you asked Larry about partial refunds and he said "no"?  Even if the backer in question returns a Pulse and/or LPS to LH?

 

 

 

 

It's been discussed lots of times and in many different ways. It's been theorized, discussed, planned, pulled, and discussed again. At this point, it's not happening. It's not completely off the table, but right now, it's not a reality for LHL. If I could make it happen, I would. The logistics at this point, with funding, organization, etc. don't make it possible. LHL would love to make it happen. If we have more to announce on that, I'll announce it. 

 

On a side note, since it's been mentioned here: We sent out a Wave update in Sept. 2017 regarding Wave funds: 

https://support.lhlabs.com/solution/articles/13000037906-faq-did-lh-labs-use-wave-s-funding-to-sponsor-other-products-

[Currawong]

12 hours ago, Jud said:

 

For LHL projects other than the Wave, of which there are a few, I think the Geek Out v2 may have been the only one where most or all customers received a product.  But I have not followed these, just read the complaints, so the best information would come from backers of these other projects.

 

Yes you would add the pledges for the various projects to get the total.  @Superdad mentioned that when he added it all up a couple of years ago, it was around $5 million at that time.

 

The original Geek Out shipped. I bought one. The V2 completely shipped AFAIK. They claim the Pulse and variations shipped fully, but there are still a few people complaining about broken units. 

 

The last total shipped units information posted that I'm aware of (unless one was posted last year) was this one:

 

 

I'm with you on a public audit. Gavin Fish said to me in person, a few years ago, that he "did $12M this year" (or words to that effect). Take from that what you will. 

 

The problem is, of course, that the company is completed FiretrUCKED. Larry seems to be trying to innovate his way out of this disaster, by making and selling new products.  I'm surprised he isn't actually focussed on the Geek Out and GOV2, as both are good products that are right where they are needed in the headphone market at the moment. However if your company name is poison, I guess that kills things. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

[stuck limo]

I already shared this with another member here privately, but I'll post it again, since it's just sitting here. This was from September 2017 and a ****ROUGH DRAFT**** of an update we never published, due to a variety of reasons. I've mentioned this before, but we have various updates that in the old days (from when I started) that I/Larry wanted to share, but Larry wanted certain updates to come out at certain times, since various updates tied into other updates. They weren't consecutive "boom boom boom" updates, per se. An update would be written, but be held off because it would tie into another update coming out later, and Larry was wanting the narrative/facts to be cohesive. Anyway, this never got released, but I'll post it here to clear up any confusion. 

 

"LH Labs was founded in 2014 by Gavin Fish, Kim Kaplan, Steve Holt and Larry as a team effort that focused on crowd funding as a separated entity (apart from Light Harmonic). Gavin and Larry mentioned this a few times in early 2014. But it become blurred between Light Harmonic and LH Labs after Gavin took off and Kim/Steve’s departure. 

 

It's a fact that due to the R&D process, cost is uncertain in crowd-funded campaigns. LH Labs’ IGG campaigns are usually on a small or big “loss” financially. Light Harmonic on the other hand, sells at high cost gear (like DaVinci, Tesla Audio, LightSpeed USB cable, etc.) which generates healthy income for LH Labs. So, because of the business math and model, there are a lot of times Larry needs the Light Harmonic team to work on sales (for Light Harmonic) to generate more income to nourish the projects of LH Labs.

 

Originally what Larry and team had hoped was that after delivering IGG campaign products, the retail sales of IGG products would keep generating good revenue. But the truth they found, is once you have a big discount price in IGG, your

retail dealer or other offline channel won’t be willing to touch that product, especially in the current exploding audiophile market.

 

IGG related products are not a failure. But businesswise, it doesn’t make any sense at all. So Gavin made his decision to leave and there are no hard feelings between Larry and Gavin. They are still on good terms and speak often. [edit for CA/AS community: we mentioned this due to a rumor online (one of many, understandably) that there was bad blood between Gavin and Larry]

 

Larry is still the owner of Light Harmonic and he feels very responsible for the promise given to IGG backers. So  he keeps plugging away, doing everything he can to deliver the products with the budget he has and the manpower available to him.  Again, he has never stopped working on these projects. He has no intention of walking away before these projects are completed. However, it is not possible for the company to devote 100% time and resources on these projects, especially since they are losing money. It is a tricky balancing act and we don't pretend it isn't.

 

 With that said, let's put some of the rumors to rest: Light Harmonic is supporting the funding of LH Labs; not the other way around. The Tesla project was developed and started before the Wave campaign. All IGG campaign money stayed within each individual campaign. There was no cross-seeding of funds. Light Harmonic (Tesla, etc.) is growing LH Labs and keeping these projects alive.

 

The backers and Larry/the team are all in the same boat. Larry is honestly trying to make the best products he can, and deliver exactly what he promised, within every bit of his capabilities within the parameters of the business. We are very sorry if anything LH did or said gave off the impression that your money was being taken to fund anything but the projects you paid for. It's very complicated business, and we hope backers understand the truth.

 

Larry has great faith in the projects, and is working hard on them at this very moment in China. In further updates, we are going to share what exactly he has been doing in China, how far along the projects are, and be more open and transparent about the financial aspect of the IGG campaigns.

 

There have also been some concerns about LH as a company – is there staff, are there offices open, is LH financially sound, etc. We are going to share all of that information as well in future updates and we are truly sorry if anything we did gave off the impression otherwise." 

 

Of course, there are other things I'm privvy to that went on behind the scenes that weren't mentioned in this update, but at this point it's all just gossip from the past and Larry doesn't like to point fingers at past staff.

[Currawong]

45 minutes ago, LHCommSquad said:

already shared this with another member here privately, but I'll post it again, since it's just sitting here. This was from September 2017 and a ****ROUGH DRAFT**** of an update we never published, due to a variety of reasons.

 

I pulled it from a public update, here: https://support.lhlabs.com/support/solutions/articles/13000037905-wave-update-chart-9-17-2017

 

I totally believe Larry is determined to pull through all this, but it would be nice if he posted where the $1.1M (or whatever it was, as the page has vanished from Indiegogo) for the Wave went. 

 

Edit: Found some old pictures:

 

 

[stuck limo]

Here's another update we put out which chronicles the Wave development history: 

 

https://support.lhlabs.com/solution/articles/13000037907-faq-why-geek-wave-project-took-so-long-

[Samuel T Cogley]

6 hours ago, LHCommSquad said:

There have also been some concerns about LH as a company – is there staff, are there offices open, is LH financially sound, etc. We are going to share all of that information as well in future updates and we are truly sorry if anything we did gave off the impression otherwise.

 

Acknowledging some concerns about the financial health of LH, a seemingly vague commitment to address those concerns in the future, but then ending the sentence in a way that suggests that LH is sorry if it gave the impression that LH is not financially sound?  Or does that last part of the sentence mean that LH is "truly sorry" that people thought they wouldn't give an update "in [the] future"?

 

Who writes this gobbledygook?  This is part of the reason that people are avoiding LH/LHL products like the plague now.  Ambiguity is not LH's friend.

[Jud]

8 hours ago, Currawong said:

 

I pulled it from a public update, here: https://support.lhlabs.com/support/solutions/articles/13000037905-wave-update-chart-9-17-2017

 

I totally believe Larry is determined to pull through all this, but it would be nice if he posted where the $1.1M (or whatever it was, as the page has vanished from Indiegogo) for the Wave went. 

 

Edit: Found some old pictures:

 

 

 

The amount pledged for the Wave project at IGG was $1.6 million.

[Jud]

9 hours ago, Currawong said:

 

The original Geek Out shipped. I bought one. The V2 completely shipped AFAIK. They claim the Pulse and variations shipped fully, but there are still a few people complaining about broken units. 

 

The last total shipped units information posted that I'm aware of (unless one was posted last year) was this one:

 

 

I'm with you on a public audit. Gavin Fish said to me in person, a few years ago, that he "did $12M this year" (or words to that effect). Take from that what you will. 

 

The problem is, of course, that the company is completed FiretrUCKED. Larry seems to be trying to innovate his way out of this disaster, by making and selling new products.  I'm surprised he isn't actually focussed on the Geek Out and GOV2, as both are good products that are right where they are needed in the headphone market at the moment. However if your company name is poison, I guess that kills things. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

 

Yes, I have a Geek Out also.  I was referring to crowdfunded projects, though I don't know if GO v2 was one of those.

[stuck limo]

1 hour ago, Jud said:

 

The amount pledged for the Wave project at IGG was $1.6 million.

Addressed here in Sept 2017: 

https://support.lhlabs.com/solution/articles/13000037906-faq-did-lh-labs-use-wave-s-funding-to-sponsor-other-products-

 

"First of all, please know that the $1.6M USD shown on Indiegogo campaign is not 100% directly related to Geek Wave project. There is Geek Source music server, Pulse DAC combo, Headphone holiday sales of Hifiman, Audeze, DSD music download, USB 1G/2G Cable, and IEM-X, Vibrato earbud... there. In order to get the exact number, we downloaded from Indiegogo backend and remove all the none-wave-related perks in that Excel. The overall number and funding we got for Geek Wave development and manufacturing is $680,869.28 (After 9% deduction from Indiegogo's commission and Paypal's transaction fee) 

 

For a big project to develop a super high-end portable player, this $680K+ is really not a lot and we always carefully using it. There is no room to sponsor any other products by this fund. "

 

[bernardperu]

I believe that, Jarek @LHCommSquad, as a representative of L(arry) H(o) Labs, owes us some minimum standard of respect. and he should answer two very basic questions:

 

Geek Wave raised almost 1.7M USD and exceeded its original funding goal by 34 times (raised 3478% of its original goal). 

 

Vi Dac raised 2852% of its original goal.

 

So LH Labs claimed they needed X amount to develop and deliver the products and they got 35X and 29X, respectively.

 

1) How is it conceivable that after exceeding the original funding goal by such a huge margin you are unable to at least finish one of the products 4-5 years later?

 

2) If you did finish the products, what % of each of the products have you delivered?

 

 

Thank you for answering these very basic questions!