Light Harmonic (LH Labs). Scam? USD$6 million not delivered since 2014

[bunno77]

Heard so many stories similar to this. 

I bought my pulse used so no issues with delivery. It's such a shame because they really are great performing products

[bernardperu]

6 hours ago, Panelhead said:

 

  It is telling that the direct sales were through Amazon. Guess no audio on line sites were interested.     

  I wonder how that went. Did they ship product to buyers from there and not the crowd funded orders?

  

  

 

LH Labs is delivering on Amazon and they even have customer reviews. I guess they used backers' crowdfunding money to develop and sell on Amazon. Nothing wrong with that except for the fact that backers have not received their products. 

[bernardperu]

2 hours ago, Superdad said:

 

And yet at their own forums (https://support.lhlabs.com/support/discussions), questions and pleas for help and updates go unanswered --for months to years...  

 

They have control over their own forums and can delete bad feedback as they please. They are more careful when it comes to forums they do not own, as they are still working on their public image.

[bernardperu]

2 hours ago, Superdad said:

 

I just spent 10 minutes looking at all the related active threads I could find on Head-Fi, and did not see anyone from LH Labs replying.  All that is contained in those threads is a far greater  number of any customers with stories to tell.

 

They have a rep named Stuck Limo who replies very often. (someone called him "stuck limbo").

[bernardperu]

2 hours ago, NOMBEDES said:

Do not the various state consumer affairs office or the state Attorney General shut down companies like LH? 

 

 

I am planning to look into this, as it is not an automatic process. I bet the FBI or the IRS would have a field day with them, as LH Labs's main breakthrough is very likely a new type of scheme.

[DESIGNonly]

1 hour ago, bernardperu said:

 

I am planning to look into this, as it is not an automatic process. I bet the FBI or the IRS would have a field day with them, as LH Labs's main breakthrough is very likely a new type of scheme.

Yes, I agreed, it's a new type of scheme.

I tried to look back to the history of the founder of LH Labs, both in US and Taiwan, but could not find any criminal history about him. But from the very early news reports while he's in Taiwan, and learned that he made some good fortune and reputation back over there. But why it's totally different now?

[PorkChop]

Has anybody received a Geek Source recently?  I am trying to determine in ANY of their campaigns are delivering anything.  I filed a report with California BBB, but the increasingly negative rating doesn't seem to bother Mr. Ho.

[Superdad]

Interesting that when asked about plans to exhibit at 2018 audio shows, LH Lab's rep Stuck Limo on Head-Fi replied:

 

CES, CanJam in RMAF. Three shows in Japan and two in Hong Kong. One in Singapore. And one in Bristol. Hopefully showing the Wave, Tesla, and something else LH hopes will excite people. 

No guarantees on any of these, and Larry is still deciding on what best ones to visit. Right now the Asian market is absolutely exploding with headphone and audiophile gear, while the US market seems to be stagnating or shrinking, so obviously that's a consideration. CanJam is definitely being heavily eyed though for the States. CES is being debated.

 

Now, in a former role (as co-founder and  VP Sales & Marketing for Hovland Company, 1999-2009) I did a lot of trade shows.  Mostly CES, but also attended as guest with our overseas distributors in Japan and Germany.

Let's say LH Labs is going to be conservative and send just 3 people to each of these shows.  Consider freight costs, the shows own drayage and exhibit fees, hotels, airfare, meals, entertaining, marketing materials, etc.

I would estimate that if they exhibited at all 9 of the above mentioned shows, they would be spending a total of  between $375,000 to $475,000.

And he mentions they might preview another new product.  It would be an understatement to say that there are a lot of folks waiting on long overdue products who would prefer that LH Labs put those funds and the time into producing and delivering the goods.

 

BTW, I can recall at least one year at Hovland when we cancelled our CES room (even forfeiting our deposits) to stay home and put all hands on deck to get promised amps and preamps out the door.  It is called responsibility to ones' stakeholders. 

[Ralf11]

ok, there ya go - class action lawsuit and serve the co. repr. at one of the shows

[Jud]

A lawsuit would be extremely difficult. Since we knew in advance no product was promised, what you would have to show would be either (1) the company's principals intended to and did use the money for other things, or (2) even though there was no firm time frame for delivery, the company's principals intended to, and did, delay delivery for so long that the item is now essentially worthless (not worthless to you specifically, but worthless in market terms).

 

Either of these would have to be proved by "clear and convincing" evidence, a heavy burden to carry.

 

My thought is that legal proceedings would be throwing good time and money after bad.

[DESIGNonly]

LH Labs replied me about my Geek Source Order, below is their response:

 

"We are currently working on the Source project. We are finishing up on the Signature Edition models, and then we will begin work on the regular editions. We'll keep updating everyone as those dates become available! If there's anything else, please let us know and keep following our IGG page for the latest updates. 

 

Jarek"

 

But the response does not commit anything to the product delivery time frame...

[Ralf11]

a lawsuit could be filed in any number of countries, all of which have different standards to win; much less to settle on favorable terms

[PorkChop]

1 hour ago, Jud said:

A lawsuit would be extremely difficult. Since we knew in advance no product was promised, what you would have to show would be either (1) the company's principals intended to and did use the money for other things, or (2) even though there was no firm time frame for delivery, the company's principals intended to, and did, delay delivery for so long that the item is now essentially worthless (not worthless to you specifically, but worthless in market terms).

 

Either of these would have to be proved by "clear and convincing" evidence, a heavy burden to carry.

 

My thought is that legal proceedings would be throwing good time and money after bad.

 

 

My thoughts almost exactly.  The most compelling reason for Larry to honor his commitments is the potentially destroyed reputation.  Some of us think it's already beyond repair, but maybe there are enough unaware consumers left to succeed in future endeavors.

[rando]

@Ralf11  You could always pursue that most ignominious of outlets tied to class action failures.   You could round up bilked investors to start a funding round for the purpose of producing a documentary based on the history of this company and it's leading figures.  

 

"A Tough Road to Ho"

The story of Larry Ho's LH Labs DAC's, Delays, & Despondency

A documentary narrated by a couple hundred well off individuals who assumed a high risk outlay

 

 

[Samuel T Cogley]

27 minutes ago, rando said:

@Ralf11  You could always pursue that most ignominious of outlets tied to class action failures.   You could round up bilked investors to start a funding round for the purpose of producing a documentary based on the history of this company and it's leading figures.  

 

"A Tough Road to Ho"

The story of Larry Ho's LH Labs DAC's, Delays, & Despondency

A documentary narrated by a couple hundred well off individuals who assumed a high risk outlay

 

 

 

Your talent for snark is unmatched!

[Jud]

The proposed title is priceless.

 

This isn't in any way to minimize the fact that many people, including myself, who put up hundreds or even thousands of dollars years ago are justifiably feeling quite ripped off by LH. 

[Jud]

2 hours ago, Ralf11 said:

a lawsuit could be filed in any number of countries, all of which have different standards to win; much less to settle on favorable terms

 

Perhaps you could have a look for a country (1) with a more favorable burden of proof (2) entitled to exercise jurisdiction over LH labs (3) with liberal class action rules allowing people from many nations to join the class (4) where you don't have to pay a lawyer the case expenses for administering a large class action (5) where you can find someone willing to travel to California to serve LH Labs and not charge you a lot for the trip (or you could have the documents mailed and hope LH is stupid enough to agree to be sued in a foreign jurisdiction).

 

I'll wait.

[Ralf11]

you can do that spud

[rando]

6 hours ago, Jud said:

This isn't in any way to minimize the fact that many people, including myself, who put up hundreds or even thousands of dollars years ago are justifiably feeling quite ripped off by LH. 

 

Not at all.  I do hope most who put their money on the line come to view this as a failed investment in a company that simply lacked the right composition for success.  As much as the proposed mockumentary would help heal wounds.  I doubt it would draw attention to a problem that can be solved.      

[Panelhead]

  The bait here was good. The same designers who are selling a 30,000.00 dac offering one for 99.00. 

  The endless upgrades to bring the low cost unit up in performance only fueled and explained a little of the wait. Also endless for some.

  The 1,000.00 or so spent on an Infinity would buy a nice dac today. A Denafrips, a Chord, a Gustard, maybe two of the Clarett 4Pre currently in residence at home.

  Time is on our side. We fell for the something for nothing scan. What many got was nothing for something. 

[bernardperu]

On 1/29/2018 at 9:14 PM, Superdad said:

Interesting that when asked about plans to exhibit at 2018 audio shows, LH Lab's rep Stuck Limo on Head-Fi replied:

 

CES, CanJam in RMAF. Three shows in Japan and two in Hong Kong. One in Singapore. And one in Bristol. Hopefully showing the Wave, Tesla, and something else LH hopes will excite people. 

No guarantees on any of these, and Larry is still deciding on what best ones to visit. Right now the Asian market is absolutely exploding with headphone and audiophile gear, while the US market seems to be stagnating or shrinking, so obviously that's a consideration. CanJam is definitely being heavily eyed though for the States. CES is being debated.

 

Now, in a former role (as co-founder and  VP Sales & Marketing for Hovland Company, 1999-2009) I did a lot of trade shows.  Mostly CES, but also attended as guest with our overseas distributors in Japan and Germany.

Let's say LH Labs is going to be conservative and send just 3 people to each of these shows.  Consider freight costs, the shows own drayage and exhibit fees, hotels, airfare, meals, entertaining, marketing materials, etc.

I would estimate that if they exhibited at all 9 of the above mentioned shows, they would be spending a total of  between $375,000 to $475,000.

And he mentions they might preview another new product.  It would be an understatement to say that there are a lot of folks waiting on long overdue products who would prefer that LH Labs put those funds and the time into producing and delivering the goods.

 

BTW, I can recall at least one year at Hovland when we cancelled our CES room (even forfeiting our deposits) to stay home and put all hands on deck to get promised amps and preamps out the door.  It is called responsibility to ones' stakeholders. 

 

This is great info! I have dealt with multiple high-end audio dealers and manufacturers and my experience has been great. Unfortunately, LH Labs has dented the reputation of the whole industry. For instance, there is one trustworthy firm doing crowdfunding: Centrance. I bought one of their products from a crowdfunding campaign and they delivered on time. Now Centrance will have a much harder time finding backers courtesy of LH Labs.

 

The Hi End audio industry needs new venues to raise money. LH Labs screwed everybody in the industry: manufacturers and consumers. Level of trust is a priceless commodity.

 

 

[bernardperu]

I believe a lawsuit is a no go and LH Labs knows it. A lawsuit would not even work, even as a bluff.

 

I am aiming on many of the following (maybe all of them) to happen and, hopefully, bring some justice to Larry Ho Labs: 

 

1) Backers joining a unified front.

 

2) Start a web site/facebook page that posts our experience with them

 

3) The media picking up on the story.

 

4) LH Labs being investigated by Federal Authorities.

 

5) Federal Authorities forcing them to refund the money or send Larry Ho to prison.

 

I am hoping I can contribute to repair what Larry Ho has done to our audiophile world. I do not mean to sound dramatic, perhaps it is just a tiny contribution. 

 

 

[Superdad]

2 hours ago, bernardperu said:

The Hi End audio industry needs new venues to raise money. LH Labs screwed everybody in the industry: manufacturers and consumers. Level of trust is a priceless commodity.

 

Thank you for writing that.  That is exactly how I feel, and is the only reason I chime into this thread. (I did back both the original GeekOut and Pulse campaigns, and received both items. The Pulse came very late of course—and was part of the defect-prone first run.)

 

There was a time a few years ago (before the LH debacle) when we considered crowdfunding. Even then we only would have done it if we had a fully completed/tested design ready to go.  It would be a way to gauge demand, size a first production run, capitalize first run parts procurement, and engage with the base.  The Indiegogo and Kickstarter fees make it an expensive route, but it could have been worthwhile.

 

Yet it is clear that LH Labs (and to a lesser extent Olive) really soured the audio community on crowdfunding, and that is why you see very few firms—established or startup—going that route anymore. 

 

Fortunately for UpTone, our sequence of product development began with designs we could capitalize in a bootstrap fashion, and each success built up the capital for the next, more ambitious and costly project.  And because I keep the company operating costs extremely lean (no magazine ads, no deep dealer/distributor discounts, no expensive trade shows), we are at the point where even a $100K production start would be manageable.  [Of course that amazes me and I am very grateful to the many here who made that possible.]

 

Coming back to your point, I agree that there are likely many other earnest engineers and entrepreneurs in the audio space who could bring worthwhile and desirable products to market if they had a boost from crowdfunding.  Because regular bank loans and vulture capital are certainly not available to any boutique high-end audio startup! (Heck, circa 2003-2006, when we were doing over $1mil./year at Hovland Company, we could not get a $100K loan to cover parts.)

 

So can audio crowdfunding return?  Perhaps if a company presented themselves well on Indiegogo, had some track record, and was truly transparent and sincere.   

Just as you said: Trust is a priceless commodity...

 

—Alex C.

[Spacehound]

On ‎29‎/‎01‎/‎2018 at 9:36 PM, Superdad said:

 

I just spent 10 minutes looking at all the related active threads I could find on Head-Fi, and did not see anyone from LH Labs replying.  All that is contained in those threads is a far greater  number of any customers with stories to tell.

People forget that the only reason for any crowdfunding campaign is that the outfit  has already been turned down by all the banks and venture capitalists and are too 'dodgy' for  the owners to put their own money in.

 

If the owners are reluctant to mortgage or re-mortage their houses to fund their product it is indicative that they have little faith in what they are doing. And you shouldn't either.

 

I'm waiting for  this week's flying  car or supersonic executive jet. That's where my money is going  

[charlesphoto]

Reading this with mild interest/amusement as I’m owed a linear power supply from another “Labs” - the infamous Welborne. Fortunately only out $300 for an LPS. They strung me along to the point where I could no longer get a refund from my CC company - a well known tactic of scammers, and of course are now long out of business. It’s sounding like it’s best to avoid audio manufacturers with Labs in the name...

 

I’m just curious as to what kind of audiophile pixie dust LHL was offering in this oversaturated market and why so many would choose to throw obscene amounts of $ at something they’ve never seen or heard? And yes, non delivery of crowdfunding hurts everybody that uses that platform, no matter the industry. There’s something to be said for the traditional dealer network....