Light Harmonic (LH Labs). Scam? USD$6 million not delivered since 2014

[Superdad]

23 minutes ago, Jud said:

And then speaking of updates and further of delivery dates, I have them for the Geek Wave campaign going back to Kickstarter.  Here's a snippet from a November 2014 update:

 

Perhaps the OP, @bernardperu will consider changing the title of this thread to say 5 years instead of 2.5.  

[Superdad]

35 minutes ago, Jud said:

And then speaking of updates and further of delivery dates, I have them for the Geek Wave campaign going back to Kickstarter.  Here's a snippet from a November 2014 update:

 

Speaking of November 2014, that's about when the writing on the wall began to be indelible.  Here's a post I made at that time:

 

[marflao]

5 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Has anyone contacted the crowdfunding platform(s)?

 

Yes... I did for instance a year ago to find out if they can give a refund and/or take some actions against LHL. 

 

Dead end.. they pointed me back to the campaigner who - based on their records - would be "Jon Gavin Fish". 

But at that time Fish left LHL already and if I'm not mistaken Jon Gavin is our famous Gavin's dad. 

 

Here's the first response I got from IGG:

 

Hi Markus,

Thanks for your note. 

The nature of crowdfunding is such that campaigns on Indiegogo are raising funds for work-in-progress projects, ideas, or causes. Backing a campaign and claiming a perk on Indiegogo is not the same as buying something online. Because projects may still be in their early stages, many things can happen between the time the project is raising funds and the expected project release date. While your contribution brings the campaign idea closer to becoming reality, there's always the chance that a project may end up falling through, and the campaigner may not be able to offer their backers the perks they'd originally promised.

That said, campaigners are still held by our Terms of Use to fulfill perks. If for any reason they're unable to offer you the perk you claimed, campaigners are obligated to reach out to their contributors and work out a mutually satisfactory resolution- this resolution could be an alternative perk, a promise to issue the promised perk at a later date if the campaign owner is able to raise additional funds, or a refund. Indiegogo cannot moderate these discussions and any resolution would occur directly between the campaigner and backer. We always recommend opening up a conversation with the campaigner if you have any question about what will happen to your contribution if the campaigner is unable to raise the funds they need to complete their project.

In looking at your contribution to the crowdfunding campaign "Geek Pulse DAC: High-Rez Desktop DAC System," I see that your contribution is outside the refund window.

As such, a refund can no longer be issued by Indiegogo. Learn more about our Crowdfunding Refund Policy, here.

If you’re still interested in receiving a refund, we recommend you get in touch with the campaigner directly. I've Cc'ed them here, and am including both of your email addresses below so you can communicate about your refund request.

Campaigner:

• Campaign Owner's Name: Jon Gavin Fish
• Campaign Owner's Email:[email protected]
• Website: http://lhlabs.com 
• Facebook: http://facebook.com/geekbylhlab

 

Edit: of course I haven't ever received a response from the campaigner who - as said above by the IGG happiness guy - was in copy. 

[MikeyFresh]

13 minutes ago, marflao said:

Campaign Owner's Name: Jon Gavin Fish

 

Additional evidence of premeditated deception if this is truly Gavin's father's name, unless of course that is actually Gavin's real name too.

[marflao]

2 hours ago, MikeyFresh said:

 

Additional evidence of premeditated deception if this is truly Gavin's father's name, unless of course that is actually Gavin's real name too.

 

OK...maybe I was wrong about that and it's his given name.

Found something on spokeo.com where the name pops up with him.

So I will apologize for making the earlier assumption.

 

[Blake]

16 hours ago, Jud said:

 

- I assume your Vi DAC Infinity (solid state) was never shipped.  Are you aware of others?

 

- Suggestion: Contract suits cost money.  The AG's office doesn't.

 

I ordered a Vi DAC Tube, and it was never shipped.  I don't believe more than 3-5 Vi DAC Tubes were ever produced.  One active member on the now defunct Geek Force Forums was given one of the Tube Vi DACs.   They had some issues with the case for both Vi DAC types.

 

As for the solid state version, I have seen 3 units pop up for sale in the used market since 2015.  I doubt more than 20-30 solid state versions were ever produced and that is being generous and giving Larry the benefit of doubt.  There is no way Larry ever shipped out 129 units to backers and that is based on comments from the various audio fora, including the Geek Force forums, with pretty much everyone stating they never received units.  I only recall 2 or 3 people saying they received a unit, everyone else was desperately waiting for their unit to ship.  Larry, please feel free to provide any form of proof to the contrary, but you know you won't.  Your customers have been asking for this data since 2015 and you never have provided any substantiated info.

 

I agree that AG office complaints are a terrific and free idea.  This is our best option and that should be the singular focus of this thread. 

 

I don't know how much of our money is left.  It is becoming quite clear that Larry likely spent IGG contributions not only on the products he is obligated to deliver but also on other things (Larry- please go see a criminal defense lawyer if you don't believe me, or check out the link I posted earlier- if you spent ANY of our money on other products, your company or your personal expenses, you committed a crime and given the amount involved, the penalty is several years in jail under California law).  For example, Larry claims he will lose money on each Vi DAC shipped. So we ask for refunds and he says that is not possible.  What other conclusion is there, other than he spent our money on other things.

 

My hope was that Larry would provide refunds.  It is apparent that will not happen.  Personally, he has (or had) $3,500 from me and if I can't get that back, I will do everything in my power to see he ends up in jail and he is ordered to return our campaign donations.  I have contacts in California.  I am sure others do as well.  If we all band together, we have a chance of pulling this off.  

 

Please help us get the word out online and ask everyone to add to marflao's (Markus) list.  I understand from Markus we are now making some good progress on this list!  That is great news.

 

Finally, I want to note that I have nothing against Jarek, this is not his fault, he is merely the messenger.  Larry is to blame (as well as Gavin).  We will submit Gavin's name to the AG's office as well. 

 

  

[Jud]

1 hour ago, Blake said:

It is becoming quite clear that Larry likely spent IGG contributions not only on the products he is obligated to deliver but also on other things

 

If you look at Larry's speaker bio from the Taiwan conference I linked to some way back in the thread, it says that after raising the money for the campaigns, LHL was "near break-even."  So it's evident that either LHL was in need of cash beforehand and the campaigns were a means to get it (speaker bio from back then), or the campaigns were a money-losing proposition that left LHL strapped for cash (what they say now).  Both can't be true, so they were lying then or they're lying now.

[Superdad]

Does anyone know which physical office locations Light Harmonic/LH Labs still occupies in California?  At their peak I recall they had offices in Roseville, Sacramento, and Rocklin.  I am curious about what is left here in the states.

[Blake]

The campaign contribution goal for each product would have been calculated by LH to cover research and design, and then production, while allowing LH to at least break even or make a profit.   LH Labs far exceeded their IGG campaign goals. This is a very important fact for our case IMO. 

 

This fact will be used to rebut any argument by Larry that the funds he received in excess of each campaign goal were solely used for R&D or production.  Even allowing for unanticipated R&D and production costs, the excess money received beyond the campaign goals would have covered these unanticipated costs and allowed for big profits.  That money must be refunded or Larry is committing a crime (in addition to breaching his contractual obligations).

 

 

[Blake]

27 minutes ago, Superdad said:

Does anyone know which physical office locations Light Harmonic/LH Labs still occupies in California?  At their peak I recall they had offices in Roseville, Sacramento, and Rocklin.  I am curious about what is left here in the states.

 

Larry posted a video on YouTube in November of 2018, discussing the Stella IEM's.  It looks like a commercial office space.  

 

 

The Light Harmonic Website lists the USA address as:

 

5701 Lonetree Blvd., Suite 114
Rocklin, CA 95765

Voicemail: (888) 842-5988
Email: [email protected]

 

Perhaps someone living in the greater Sacramento area could drive by the office building and check the directory for the office building.  Using Google Maps street view you will see there is a decent sized office building at this address, and includes some sort of mini golf course in the common area.

 

[MikeyFresh]

34 minutes ago, Blake said:

The Light Harmonic Website lists the USA address as:

 

5701 Lonetree Blvd., Suite 114
Rocklin, CA 95765

Voicemail: (888) 842-5988
Email: [email protected]

 

They had also not too long ago been touting a supposed Berkeley, CA office location. I vaguely remember that was supposed to have replaced one or both of the shut down Roseville locations.

[stuck limo]

@Blake Absolutely, LH Labs could release those "shipped" numbers, but would anyone here really believe those numbers? I can think of about specifically 3-4 members who would accuse of us doctoring, photoshopping, or creating false numbers. 

 

Any time we release any sort of photo or information, the conspiracy theories come flying out (ex: Gavin's dad's name). We released a photo of the Source. Someone accused us of photoshopping the pictures. 

 

So, yes, we have discussed releasing various requested numbers, but we can't think of any "good" it would do us, as it would be dismissed entirely by the majority of people. 

 

We can't even post a business address without that being called into doubt. But I encourage everyone to drive, fly or walk over there to see for themselves the building. 

[Blake]

@LHCommSquad,

 

Since you are touting LH's transparency, how about we focus on the more important issue.

 

What is the precise reason for Larry's refusal to issue refunds?

 

 

[Superdad]

1 hour ago, LHCommSquad said:

But I encourage everyone to drive, fly or walk over there to see for themselves the building. 

 

Is that also an invitation for someone to knock on the door, meet an LH associate and receive a short tour?  Since LH long ago stopped publishing photos of any production areas, parts, or goods shipments, there is zero proof that anything at all is going on there or that anybody even works there.

Call that a conspiracy theory if you like, but given the complete lack of credibility that LH has with the audio community I would think that you would be eager to post some pictures to show people that things are still happening. Pretty basic PR strategy.

[stuck limo]

22 minutes ago, Superdad said:

 

Is that also an invitation for someone to knock on the door, meet an LH associate and receive a short tour?  Since LH long ago stopped publishing photos of any production areas, parts, or goods shipments, there is zero proof that anything at all is going on there or that anybody even works there.

Call that a conspiracy theory if you like, but given the complete lack of credibility that LH has with the audio community I would think that you would be eager to post some pictures to show people that things are still happening. Pretty basic PR strategy.

 

Sure, I have pictures I can post of the office. We posted a YouTube video of the office, posted above. We posted the address too. We posted Source pictures from the office (we were accused of photoshopping them).

 

However, again, if we posted pictures of the office, there would be an onslaught of complaints that a) we were using the money for the office instead of the campaigns b) how much did that office cost us c) people don't see any campaign merchandise d) the photos were posed or the office was dressed to mislead e) insert any other complaint. One complaint Larry vividly remembers is that someone complained about how expensive the table in the office was compared to whatever the backer had at home.

 

As far as a tour of the place, as far as I know, we've always been open to backers and I've not heard this has changed. If anyone wants a tour, as far as I'm aware, if you schedule ahead, you can probably get one, depending on who you are and your intentions. If you're there to cause problems or harass us on the forums, probably not. If you're there to genuinely meet the team and see what is going on in a non-hostile manner, then probably.

[Jud]

I get the impression people in other campaigns haven't received communications for a while.  People in the Geek Wave campaign have received a large number of communications.  As I noted upthread, we recently received update number 179, which includes a photo of a 4-person "Wave team" (no names provided) including LH, and one of a "Wave development board," which as the update mentions, isn't actually a Wave board but a board the team uses to develop software for devices like the Wave.  The photo is of only part of a board, purportedly to protect company confidentiality.

 

Of course as the updates I posted upthread indicate, the quality of the information can be rather lacking, such as projected ship dates now long past, or various explanations regarding why it is taking 2, or 3, or 5+ years to produce (allegedly) a DAP.

[NOMBEDES]

Holy Smoke.  This thread (16 pages!) indicates that we should stick with established Audio companies and stay away from crowd funded pie in the sky enterprises.   

 

I have nothing against startups, but I will wait until the gizmo is in production, a few reviews are written and the mantel of legitimacy shines like a golden beam from on high.

[The Computer Audiophile]

Update 179?

 

How else does one delay long enough to get past the statute of limitations 😳

[stuck limo]

17 minutes ago, Jud said:

I get the impression people in other campaigns haven't received communications for a while.  People in the Geek Wave campaign have received a large number of communications.  As I noted upthread, we recently received update number 179, which includes a photo of a 4-person "Wave team" (no names provided) including LH, and one of a "Wave development board," which as the update mentions, isn't actually a Wave board but a board the team uses to develop software for devices like the Wave.  The photo is of only part of a board, purportedly to protect company confidentiality.

 

Of course as the updates I posted upthread indicate, the quality of the information can be rather lacking, such as projected ship dates now long past, or various explanations regarding why it is taking 2, or 3, or 5+ years to produce (allegedly) a DAP.

 

We also posted other photos of the real board + the developer's board since there was apparently mass confusion amongst a small sect of certain backers over what exactly a "developer's board" was or what we were trying to "trick" backers with in that photo.

 

Again, another shining example of any photo or information we release, we are accused of lying, doctoring, misrepresenting, etc. all which turned out to be 100% false in this case.

 

Of course, I fully expect this information to be ignored for the most part.

 

[Jud]

Later today or at some point this weekend I intend to post a topic calling folks' attention to the availability of the spreadsheet, unless someone beats me to it.  I'd also ask that people who are members of other forums post pointers to the spreadsheet there, and let us know which other forums you've posted on with links to the topics, so we don't have a confusing duplication of effort.  I'm a Head-Fi member, so I can get around to that, again unless someone beats me to it.

 

If you are wondering how to find out what you have contributed to which campaigns and don't want to have to go back through old records, IGG and Kickstarter both maintain records of your campaigns and contributions.

[The Computer Audiophile]

5 minutes ago, LHCommSquad said:

 

We also posted other photos of the real board + the developer's board since there was apparently mass confusion amongst a small sect of certain backers over what exactly a "developer's board" was or what we were trying to "trick" backers with in that photo.

 

Again, another shining example of any photo or information we release, we are accused of lying, doctoring, misrepresenting, etc. all which turned out to be 100% false in this case.

 

Of course, I fully expect this information to be ignored for the most part.

 

 

I really don't understand what this picture is supposed to show people. That they are close to getting something or these are a couple boards you purchased off Alibaba and took a picture then cropped it very strangely.

[Jud]

3 minutes ago, LHCommSquad said:

Again, another shining example of any photo or information we release, we are accused of lying, doctoring, misrepresenting, etc. all which turned out to be 100% false in this case.

 

For some reason this post shows up for me even though as I mentioned I'd put you on my ignore list (please try not to take it personally, I just want to save myself aggravation).

 

@LHCommSquad, do you suppose after 4 or 5 years people might have a conditioned reflex of skepticism regarding any communications coming from LHL?  Can you say it is terribly unfair that they would?  If not, then perhaps you ought to stop complaining about it.

[Blake]

31 minutes ago, LHCommSquad said:

If you're there to cause problems or harass us on the forums, probably not. If you're there to genuinely meet the team and see what is going on in a non-hostile manner, then probably.

 

The last official IGG update for the Vi DAC was SEPTEMBER 5, 2018.   Poor Larry, getting harassed on the forums by people who gave him money for nothing.

 

 

[stuck limo]

1 minute ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

 

I really don't understand what this picture is supposed to show people. That they are close to getting something or these are a couple boards you purchased off Alibaba and took a picture then cropped it very strangely.

 

Jud made it sound as if the only photo was this:

 

" one of a "Wave development board," which as the update mentions, isn't actually a Wave board but a board the team uses to develop software for devices like the Wave.  The photo is of only part of a board, purportedly to protect company confidentiality."

 

 

When in fact, we released another picture as well:

 

 

Members of Head-Fi and your forum accused us of displaying or representing the first picture as an actual Wave board instead of the Wave Developer's Development board. The Wave board itself is the white board in the second photo. We at no time indicated or represented the blue board as the Wave board, contrary to certain backers' opinions or thought processes.

[stuck limo]

5 minutes ago, Jud said:

 

For some reason this post shows up for me even though as I mentioned I'd put you on my ignore list (please try not to take it personally, I just want to save myself aggravation).

 

@LHCommSquad, do you suppose after 4 or 5 years people might have a conditioned reflex of skepticism regarding any communications coming from LHL?  Can you say it is terribly unfair that they would?  If not, then perhaps you ought to stop complaining about it.

 

I'm on "ignore", yet you want me to respond to you?

 

On that note, it appears there's an atmosphere of distrust from the backers:

 

1. They demand proof

2. We show proof

3. They automatically dismiss it

 

Therefore, is it terribly unfair that LH Labs is reluctant to show proof or photos when they will automatically be branded liars? The best bet would be to just stop asking for things you think we'd lie about anyway.